Law School Discussion

Republican and Gay

redemption

Re: Republican and Gay
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2006, 10:18:55 AM »

Goalie, this was in response to your post ----

Eh, I think that the care with with people read each other's posts gets better later in the cycle.

People who are addressing me in this thread are responsing to what they think I've said rather than to what I have actually said. Not sure why, since I speak rather plainly most of the time.

I have gone to great lengths -- more than is reasonable -- to point out that I am not against voting for Republican candidates who are not anti-gay. I am drawing the line at funding -- and formally identifying yourself -- with a national Republican party who uses your money and the cover that you provide to both whip up homophobia and pretend that it is a broad tent. That's silliness, and if you do and are, you'll be ashamed of yourself when the time comes for having been a part of it -- and believe me, you are complicit in homophobia if you fund it and lend it credence.

Now, these are identity-type issues. The base of that party hates you for who you are, which is different in kind from despising/hating what you do. There is very little that you can do by conversation to change a bigot's mind, and your options are to share a bed with him or not.

Policy questions are another matter. These are arguable, negotiable, compromisable. The torturers, for example, don't love torture itself so much as they think that it is a useful tool for whatever policy and political purposes they have in mind. This is an arguable matter, you can persuade and provide counter-arguments in a way that you cannot over identity issues. Same with taxes, regulation, border control, etc.

Therefore, if you are really interested in changing policy and platforms to positions that you believe in, you get in bed with people who think that you're human and persuade them, or you stay outside of the parties and sway them with your vote.

What Log Cabin types are doing is silly, contemptible -- "I know that core of this organization thinks I'm repulsive, but maybe I can persuade them that I'm not by formally joining up with them, paying them my dues, and agreeing with them on taxes and whatnot.". It would be ridiculous for an Arab to join the Front National because he liked their pledge of full-employment, and it is absurd for gays to finance the kinds of National and State campaigns that their money goes towards.

::steps off soapbox, hoping her position is clearer or better understood::

redemption

Re: Republican and Gay
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2006, 10:21:36 AM »
I am hot under the collar! (Not necessarily at you, but definetely about this issue.) The reason the Republican party is the way it is (which I agree is xenophobic at best) is because it has been taken hostage by religious extremists in this country! I grew up in the same town as Focus on the Family and Bibles for the World's headquarters. (Also crowned the least "gay-friendly" town in America. Awesome.) So I have seen, close-up, the effects of these organizations on a micro-level. It is not right. It is not fair. 50 years from now, I hope that the blocking of gay-marriage is looked upon with the same amount of disbelief and disgust with which the opposition to the Equal Rights Movement is looked. However, I do not believe that the Republican party stands for racism and bigotry, and until we do something to address the real problem behind it (The absolute lack of separation btw church and state w/i the current Republican party) America will suffer from a completely dichotimized political structure.

Is the answer to this voting Democrat and accepting their entire party stand? No - I do not think so. I think the answer is insisting that we do not want our politicians' votes determined by trying to appease the morals of the religious right or, on the other hand, simply trying to oppose or respond to those loons.

 

Okay. I think that what I would do, if I were gay, is to vote for whomever agreed with my position the most, with the exception that I would NEVER ote fr a homophobic bigot. Never. I would also not join the Republican party, even though I may live in Vermont and vote Republican across the board.  :)

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Re: Republican and Gay
« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2006, 10:23:58 AM »
Republican + gay is as silly as Republican + black. You're in a tent with people who utterly despise you. It represents an utter lack of judgment.

Yep.

redemption

Re: Republican and Gay
« Reply #63 on: October 17, 2006, 10:28:27 AM »
if a republican candidate made an anti-gay marriage amendment their top issue, no I would not vote for them. I would not vote for any candidate that is only about one issue. If they generally oppose gay marriage but aren't psycho conservative christian "god hates fags," etc., and have a good platform with which I agree on many points, then yeah I would feel comfortable voting for them even though they don't support gay marriage rights.

Well, I'm telling ya -- you'd be surprised at what's really going on inside their toupeed heads. When you hear them say "gay marriage" to a particular kind of audience, believe that what they are really saying is "god hates fags". If you can live with that as long as that's not his top issue, and he's emphasizing his War on Terror credentials on his TV ads, what can I tell you?

redemption

Re: Republican and Gay
« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2006, 10:32:22 AM »
I guess I don't believe that the core of the republican party hates gay people. And I don't agree that change cannot be implemented from the inside...but then we're getting into the Douglass v. Booker T. debate...which begins to stray from the argument at hand.

Lots of republicans don't; the base, I think, does.

Without the base, the current national Republican Party is nowhere, so they court it and feed it. I couldn't live with knowing that I gave them money to continue doing so.

redemption

Re: Republican and Gay
« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2006, 10:38:21 AM »
Haha, okay. We're using "core" differently. I mean the death-grip people by it. I figure that they have a death-grip on the Party for a reason.


'tiki

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Re: Republican and Gay
« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2006, 10:39:06 AM »
Sorry I was MIA for like 2+ pages of discussion, I just got back from Constitutional Development class... sooooo good.  ;D


People who are addressing me in this thread are responsing to what they think I've said rather than to what I have actually said. Not sure why, since I speak rather plainly most of the time.

I have gone to great lengths -- more than is reasonable -- to point out that I am not against voting for Republican candidates who are not anti-gay. I am drawing the line at funding -- and formally identifying yourself -- with a national Republican party who uses your money and the cover that you provide to both whip up homophobia and pretend that it is a broad tent. That's silliness, and if you do and are, you'll be ashamed of yourself when the time comes for having been a part of it -- and believe me, you are complicit in homophobia if you fund it and lend it credence.

Now, these are identity-type issues. The base of that party hates you for who you are, which is different in kind from despising/hating what you do. There is very little that you can do by conversation to change a bigot's mind, and your options are to share a bed with him or not.

Policy questions are another matter. These are arguable, negotiable, compromisable. The torturers, for example, don't love torture itself so much as they think that it is a useful tool for whatever policy and political purposes they have in mind. This is an arguable matter, you can persuade and provide counter-arguments in a way that you cannot over identity issues. Same with taxes, regulation, border control, etc.

Therefore, if you are really interested in changing policy and platforms to positions that you believe in, you get in bed with people who think that you're human and persuade them, or you stay outside of the parties and sway them with your vote.

What Log Cabin types are doing is silly, contemptible -- "I know that core of this organization thinks I'm repulsive, but maybe I can persuade them that I'm not by formally joining up with them, paying them my dues, and agreeing with them on taxes and whatnot.". It would be ridiculous for an Arab to join the Front National because he liked their pledge of full-employment, and it is absurd for gays to finance the kinds of National and State campaigns that their money goes towards.

::steps off soapbox, hoping her position is clearer or better understood::

I have understood your point from the beginning and stand by what I have said. If a particular person believes that the majority of his/her interests are best served by the Republican party even if one particular interest is not who are you to question their motives, let alone insult them? They are advancing the majority of their interests by paying their dues.

Mention me how many Democratic candidates support gay marriage? Not many at all so therefore gay marriage becomes a non-issue a lot of the time when it comes to choosing a candidate.

Also, who are you to tell someone what is key part of their identity? A person is compromised by many factors and he or she might be gay but not consider it to essential to who they are or what they believe.


redemption

Re: Republican and Gay
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2006, 10:41:50 AM »
Haha, okay. We're using "core" differently. I mean the death-grip people by it. I figure that they have a death-grip on the Party for a reason.




It's called campaign $$$ and the ability to shout louder than the rest of the crowd  >:(

Red., you would probably roll over and die or go postal if you ever visited my hometown. It would be hilarious. I kinda want to arrange a visit.

I wonder if it would be all that different from my home town?

'tiki

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Re: Republican and Gay
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2006, 10:42:18 AM »
AND on a side note
looks like VA might ban gay marriages.

but im sure its not a repub inititative...

Its on the ballot and it actually might not pass. The polling has shown it to be very close because it is too encompassing, banning civil unions too. If it passes (which I believe it will), it will be by a very slim margin.

redemption

Re: Republican and Gay
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2006, 10:45:37 AM »

I have understood your point from the beginning and stand by what I have said. If a particular person believes that the majority of his/her interests are best served by the Republican party even if one particular interest is not who are you to question their motives, let alone insult them? They are advancing the majority of their interests by paying their dues.

Mention me how many Democratic candidates support gay marriage? Not many at all so therefore gay marriage becomes a non-issue a lot of the time when it comes to choosing a candidate.

Also, who are you to tell someone what is key part of their identity? A person is compromised by many factors and he or she might be gay but not consider it to essential to who they are or what they believe.

Oh, boy.  :D :D :D

Okay, champ. You win.