Law School Discussion

Russia: Hussein's regime planned terrorism against U.S.

grahamers

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Re: Russia: Hussein's regime planned terrorism against U.S.
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2004, 08:18:36 AM »
The intelligence wasn't clear enough to be completely positive either way.  That's why it is called intelligence not fact.   

Yeah, but on the scale of certainty, we all have different thresholds for action.  Many people propose that things are not of the "fact" level until one is willing to depend upon them in a life or death situation.  (Gravity is a "fact.")  The issue is that Bush's threshhold for action on his belief scale seesm to be extremely low in this case.  Upon that, I think we agree.

gooooooo

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Re: Russia: Hussein's regime planned terrorism against U.S.
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2004, 08:22:33 AM »
If you said "low-moderate" and not "extremely low", then I think we agree. 
Haha.

Re: Russia: Hussein's regime planned terrorism against U.S.
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2004, 10:24:01 AM »
if russia presented intelligence on iraq, then why were they so adamantly against the war with iraq? and why didn't the white house play on this to get them more involved?

It's appalling, isn't it?  In the article, Putin actually says something to the effect that "Despite evidence of Iraq's plans to commit terrorist attacks against the United States, our position on the war has not changed (in other words, they still oppose it)."

The Russians opposed the war in Iraq for a very simple reason: Money.  Their government had weapons and oil contracts with Hussein's regime, and they were afraid that toppling him would jeopardize their payday. 

Add that to the fact that the Russians don't have a long history of democracy and respect for human rights.  They're simply not all that concerned about other nations living under oppression.

jgruber

Re: Russia: Hussein's regime planned terrorism against U.S.
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2004, 10:30:02 AM »
Those Russians never really are on our side.


But why didn't the administration share this information with the world, especially when Russia voiced opposition?


if russia presented intelligence on iraq, then why were they so adamantly against the war with iraq? and why didn't the white house play on this to get them more involved?

It's appalling, isn't it?  In the article, Putin actually says something to the effect that "Despite evidence of Iraq's plans to commit terrorist attacks against the United States, our position on the war has not changed (in other words, they still oppose it)."

The Russians opposed the war in Iraq for a very simple reason: Money.  Their government had weapons and oil contracts with Hussein's regime, and they were afraid that toppling him would jeopardize their payday. 

Add that to the fact that the Russians don't have a long history of democracy and respect for human rights.  They're simply not all that concerned about other nations living under oppression.

Re: Russia: Hussein's regime planned terrorism against U.S.
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2004, 10:42:58 AM »
If Bush had credible evidence that Iraq was planning a terrorist attack against the U.S. he would really have no choice but to initiate a preemtive attack.  He is charged with securing the country, and in the wake of Sept. 11th he really couldn't take any chances.  Especially since George Tenet told him that the case for Sadaam having WMD was a "slam dunk".  Put these two together in Bushie's mind,  WMD + iminent terrorist attack.  He had no choice but to attack.

This is what bothers me about the vicious personal attacks against President Bush, with regard to his motivation for the war.

President Clinton believed that Iraq had WMD's, and he supported a congressional resolution in the 1990's, stating that "regime change" in Iraq was American foreign policy.

Worldwide intelligence sources since the 1990's have pointed to the conclusion that Iraq either had, or was in the process of developing WMD's.  France believed that.  Germany believed that.  Russia believed that.  The United States, under both Democratic and Republican administrations, believed that. 

Prior to our invasion of Iraq, there was virtually unanimous consensus that Iraq had WMD's, even among nations that opposed the war!  So the question we should be asking ourselves is NOT "Why did that cowboy drag us into a holy war?"  Or "Why did Bush lie about WMD's so that we can steal Iraqi oil and colonize a Muslim nation?"  If you really believe that crap, then I don't know what to tell you.  The question that needs to be asked is how could the intelligence community throughout the WHOLE WORLD could be wrong.

I suspect that the intelligence was not wrong, and the answers were looking for are in Syria or Iran. 

My question is, why the venom towards President Bush?  Both Democrats and Republicans in Congress viewed the same intelligence information that President Bush did, and they came to the same conclusion.  They voted overwhelmingly to authorize war in Iraq.  Bush reached the only reasonable conclusion possible; the same one reached by the entire world, and I believe, the correct conclusion.  Just because some weasels are backpeddling now for political reasons, that doesn't change the facts. 

gooooooo

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Re: Russia: Hussein's regime planned terrorism against U.S.
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2004, 10:55:29 AM »
My question is, why the venom towards President Bush?  Both Democrats and Republicans in Congress viewed the same intelligence information that President Bush did, and they came to the same conclusion.  They voted overwhelmingly to authorize war in Iraq.  Bush reached the only reasonable conclusion possible; the same one reached by the entire world, and I believe, the correct conclusion.  Just because some weasels are backpeddling now for political reasons, that doesn't change the facts. 

Just because a country has WMD and is a "rogue state" doesn't mean that they are planning to use them against the U.S.  We can't go invading every country that we think has a vial of sirin because it just wouldn't be practical and it would actually put us in more danger.  I was saying that the combination of Bush thinking Iraq had WMD and were planning an iminent terrorist attack against our country would make his justification for war understandable.  It is the product of WMD and probability of their use that determines threat.   

Re: Russia: Hussein's regime planned terrorism against U.S.
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2004, 10:57:22 AM »
Those Russians never really are on our side.

But why didn't the administration share this information with the world, especially when Russia voiced opposition?

I don't know the answer to that, in this particular case.  I do know that the nature of intelligence is such that you cannot always go running to the media everytime you get a credible tip.  If there's a risk of exposing the source of the information, then you may have to act on it without discussing it publicly. 

Again, I have no idea what the situation was in this case, but I have to think that Bush would have shared the information if he COULD have, given that it would have bolstered the case for war. 

Putin is the one who brought this up now, by the way.  It's not like Bush is grasping for straws, and now he's quoting Russian intelligence sources as a new justification.  I'm not sure what Putin's motivation is for throwing this out now. 

Those of you who have said that Russia "duped" Bush are completely ignoring the fact that Russia was genuinely opposed to the Iraqi invasion.  They had very real, cynical reasons for propping up Hussein. 

Re: Russia: Hussein's regime planned terrorism against U.S.
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2004, 11:40:18 AM »

Just because a country has WMD and is a "rogue state" doesn't mean that they are planning to use them against the U.S.  We can't go invading every country that we think has a vial of sirin because it just wouldn't be practical and it would actually put us in more danger.  I was saying that the combination of Bush thinking Iraq had WMD and were planning an iminent terrorist attack against our country would make his justification for war understandable.  It is the product of WMD and probability of their use that determines threat.   
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Ideally, I would like to see us overthrow every dictator who commits mass murder, but I agree that it's not practical for one nation to do that. 

The U.S. does have some history of intervening in conflicts where we have no real national security interest at stake, and I think that's a good thing.  It's okay for us to prioritize our limited resources, but I don't think we can turn our backs and say, "We don't have any interests there, so we'll just let thousands of people get slaughtered." 

I've supported the Iraq war because it's the right move to protect America and her allies, but also because I'm a strong proponent of human rights. 

Hussein has murdered thousands of people, and is indirectly responsible for over a million deaths.  As far as I'm concerned, his connections to terrorism and WMD's only confirm what I believed long before 9/11: that he needs to be removed from power because he's an enemy of human rights. 

jgruber

Re: Russia: Hussein's regime planned terrorism against U.S.
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2004, 11:50:05 AM »
Phil, there's no answer to this one.  Either the dude was duped or the intelligence was bogus or non-existent.