My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized

[aloha737pilot]

Wild Jack Maverick, you should have your name changed to the Voice of Reason because you deserve the literal title. All I can say about your response to "Duckasouras Jr"(Donald Duck voice effect) the equal opportunity specialist formerly known as Voice of Reason, is didn't anyone ever tell you not to piss into the wind? This guy is just going to come back and flame your post and tell you what a waste of time it is and yadda, yadda, yadda. He is like a broken freaking record already. He is so sure that distance learners don't belong in law that he wants to have us marked with a big "DL" so the rest of the world will know that we are not as good as he is. I appreciate all of your common sense posts on the board. I just think you are wasting your time on this self appointed wind bag defender of the legal profession. He did name himself Voice of Reason. Think about it.

[duckasourus]

wow you are right for once, DL students do not belong in school and should be branded on the forehead with fake law degree, you can not seriously claim the applicants there are on the same field as those from ABA schools. I will leave you with the bar passage rates of fake law schools vs real ones.  YOU WILL NEVER PASS THE BAR, go buy a corvette before the airline goes bankrupt and takes away your pension.

[voice of reason]

No, I'm not going to flame Jack's post because it was mature, rational and well thought out.  Unlike you, aloha, who cannot listen to people's criticism and makes posts that look like they were written by a 15 year old in terms of maturity.  We agree that DL is ok for people that wish to study law, though I think that law is a profession and not a hobby.  However, if someone has some weird fetish to learn law for the hell of it, go for it.  Just don't expect to have many if any at all opportunities if you expect that DL degree to carry you professionally.  That is the whole point of people coming on here and denouncing non ABA schools (some more eloquently than others).  Many began with well-reasoned arguments, but were reduced to flame after aloha responded with immaturity and arrogance.

Those with ABA approved degrees are not worried about competing with non-ABA schools.  Those that believe that the ABA will fall, online degrees will take over, etc etc are kidding themselves.  Be real about the position you are in...in the legal world, it's not a good one...you will be at the bottom of the heap and shunned by all these "elitist laywers" that wish to hire ABA accredited associates.  If you still can't understand that than I feel sorry for you.  Have fun with your "degree".  I'm sick of this topic.  If nothing else, I hope those that came to this board curious about the merits of an online degree decide to throw their full effort behind attending an ABA school, or at least read all these posts and give serious pause before trying to get an online JD.

[aloha737pilot]

What Voice of Reason said yesterday:

"We agree that DL is ok for people that wish to study law.."

What he really meant, he stated two days ago:

"If all you can attend is an online law school or any non ABA approved school, forget it."

What Voice of Reason said yesterday:

"Those with ABA approved degrees are not worried about competing with non-ABA schools."

What he really meant, he stated two days ago:

"The law profession is very cutthroat and prestige-oriented, from the cradle (law school admissions) to the grave (making partner).  The legal profession is saturated due to everyone thinking they can do it too, and many lesser ranked schools perpetuate this problem."

What Voice of Reason said yesterday:

"if someone has some weird fetish to learn law for the hell of it, go for it."

What he really meant, he stated two days ago:

"There's no such thing as the "hobby of law".  It's either a profession or its not.  If someone, for reasons I could never understand, wants to take up law as a hobby, don't go to law school.  For one, you are taking up a spot reserved for some other zealot that wanted to be a lawyer since he/she was 11 for a career because you were "curious"."

What Voice of Reason said yesterday:

That is the whole point of people coming on here and denouncing non ABA schools (some more eloquently than others).  Many began with well-reasoned arguments, but were reduced to flame after aloha responded with immaturity and arrogance.

What he really meant, he stated two days ago:

"This has been discussed ad nauseum, no need to rehash.  If all you can attend is a T3/T4, think long and hard before committing yourself.  Know what you are getting yourself into and be honest with yourself.  Consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT or even waiting three years for your score to be erased and start fresh."

What Voice of Reason said yesterday:

"I'm sick of this topic."

What he really meant, he stated two days ago:

"law can be quite boring sometimes.  Many of those that have dreamed of being a lawyer all their lives find it difficult to wade through some of the subject matter."   

[voice of reason]

I stand by everything I said.

1.  I still don't believe law is a hobby.  For those that believe it is (can't be too many of you), I recommend self study.  If you insist on instruction, do DL so you don't take someone's spot at an approved law school and rob someone of professional opportunities.

2.  I still disagree with lower ranked schools lying to people, telling them they will no doubt succeed and be rich upon graduation.  Less people should study law-it's not for everyone.  Those that do pursue the "dream" by going to a non-approved law school...those coming from approved law schools are not worried about.  Not exactly competition.

3.  Those that are serious about the law and want a wide array of opportunities after graduating do need to work their hardest to get into top schools.  Don't settle for T3/T4 if you know you can do better.  For professional purposes, forget DL entirely.

Hope this is clear enough for you.  This is my last post on this topic, read it all carefully, those of you that are considering DL.  Stay the hell away. 

[tjking82]

Jack, thank you for putting some stats to what I have been saying all along.  The law profession is very cutthroat and prestige-oriented, from the cradle (law school admissions) to the grave (making partner).  The legal profession is saturated due to everyone thinking they can do it too, and many lesser ranked schools perpetuate this problem. 

There's no such thing as the "hobby of law".  It's either a profession or its not.  If someone, for reasons I could never understand, wants to take up law as a hobby, don't go to law school.  For one, you are taking up a spot reserved for some other zealot that wanted to be a lawyer since he/she was 11 for a career because you were "curious".  Second, any hobby that requires you to incur ~$100,000 debt with little or no return, and requires you to pay it back in 10 years is a BAD idea.  Third, law can be quite boring sometimes.  Many of those that have dreamed of being a lawyer all their lives find it difficult to wade through some of the subject matter.  It's not for the faint of heart and not for those with a passing interest.  If theres someone out there that wants to learn the law for fun, self-study.  Buy some E&E's, hornbooks, casebooks, whatever.  Knock yourself out.  Save $99,000 and three years of stress.

If law is your dream, then those stats should be a wake up call.  That's a lot of debt to take on for uncertain prospects.  When investing in yourself, you need to think like an economist.  There is an enormous opportunity cost associated with attending law school.  Not only are you spending money like mad on education, you are giving up three years salary in whatever profession you are in or could gain employment in.  That's another $150,000 or more down the drain.  Suddenly, law school doesn't look so good.  Are you in that 1%?  Are you so naive as to think you will be the one to beat all odds and be that one guy that "makes it" from your school?  Is this job worth $250,000 or more to you?  Assuming you can get a lower paying job, do you want to be a slave working at $11/hour trying to pay back your loans for the next 10 years?  These are just a few of the questions a person should ask themselves before throwing themselves down the slippery slope.

If all you can attend is an online law school or any non ABA approved school, forget it.  This has been discussed ad nauseum, no need to rehash.  If all you can attend is a T3/T4, think long and hard before committing yourself.  Know what you are getting yourself into and be honest with yourself.  Consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT or even waiting three years for your score to be erased and start fresh.  Above this, just concentrate on getting into the best school that you can get into to maximize your chances at making it in a difficult field.  Think long and hard before committing yourself.

I could not agree more with all of this.  People take $150k in loans, and never stop to think about how they're going to pay that back.  Hint:  You can't pay it back on $35k per year.  You'll just be paying the interest.

Do the analysis.  I know you want to go to law school, but do you want to be a slave to your law school debt for the rest of your life?  Because if you attend a T4 or online school, that's the life you're sentencing yourself to.

And knowing there's all these cutthroat lower tier lawyers with no jobs, do you really want to get an online law degree?  What are your chances at finding a job, when you'll be confined to the lowest of jobs within law, and you're at a disadvantage to the mass of T4s who want the same job, but have an ABA degree?

These people confuse me.

[elemnopee]

On line law degree = expensive paralegal program

[burtonsnow]

 

There's no such thing as the "hobby of law".  It's either a profession or its not.  If someone, for reasons I could never understand, wants to take up law as a hobby, don't go to law school.

Probably good advise.

If all you can attend is a T3/T4, think long and hard before committing yourself.  Know what you are getting yourself into and be honest with yourself.  Consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT or even waiting three years for your score to be erased and start fresh.  Above this, just concentrate on getting into the best school that you can get into to maximize your chances at making it in a difficult field.  Think long and hard before committing yourself.

The Law as a "difficult field" to work in as a legal professional is a relative concept. This whole post (as were 90% of all the others in this thread) seemed, as presented, to be just bunch of generalities with no basis in fact. The stats say that most who go to ABA approved law schools will work in the profession and they will start out at around 45,000 to 60,000 a year. Some will make way more, some slightly less. Three out of four lawyers work for themselves, that stat surprised me.

I don't know much about DL, but it does seem like few here are clearly versed in the rules on how all the various states view that degree. I think that would make getting a DL JD a speculative prospect, at the least. Their sites say that getting a LLM from an approved school can open the door to other state bar exams. Or you can practice law in Cali if you pass two bar exams (the same bar requirement that a law clerk as a apprentice has by the way, and that also was the way the law was taught thru most of US history, and is how Justice Hugo Black learned it! The tradional law school was not the traditional path when you look at the whole historical record, regarding the main path to a American legal education).  But DL won't allow you to experience the Socratic Method, but then again law clerks aren't being exposed to that either. Seems a DL will teach one the rest of it, but maybe I'm missing something.

Anyways, here's the Facts from U.S. Department of Labor
Bureau of Labor Statistics on lawyerin' in the good ol' US of A.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm


Just so that some of us who are thinking of going to, like,  Gonzaga, say, as I am, can relax and realize we aren't just wasting our time. lol

'cuse typos

[Wild Jack Maverick]

I am still learning something. Two states and the District of Columbia accept correspondence course JD's.

Are there any correspondence courses?

[majorporcupine]

The simple solution to this entire debate is to go to Yale.