Law School Discussion

LOW LSAT Score

Re: LOW LSAT Score
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2004, 07:58:12 PM »
"You obviously don't know what you're talking about."

Listen, kid, I was being nice. I don't give a sh*t where you went to school. You do not display even the most basic skills necessary to succeed in law. If you would like to go round and round, I'll be happy to humiliate you. Flat out, your statements are absurd and your argument skills pathetic.

"In fact, your characterization of law as "a tough field" is somewhat of a paradox to your statement in general."

Uh, no. It is "somewhat" a statement of fact.

Law IS a tough field. You assume that non-tier-one graduates who succeed in law provide evidence that law is not a tough field.

You are wrong.

"When you graduate from law school you'll have a better appreciation of the legal job market as it applies to new graduates."

I have a better understanding of the legal job market as it applies to new graduates than you do. 

"My comment was limited to finding a job upon graduation."

Your comment was asinine, nevertheless.

"The thousands of graduates you mention who have "great careers" in major metropolitan areas have most likely...<snip>"

You don't have the first clue how those graduates attained their current "great career" positions. Regardless, thousands of non-tier-one-school graduates succeed. It clearly bothers the hell out of you because you can't find satisfactory employment.

"However, since you don't seem to want to take my word for it, I encourage you to contact the career service office at any tier 1 school...<snip>"

If you are depending upon the advice of a career services office, then it's hardly surprising that you can't find a decent job. Does Mommy still wipe your nose, too?

"Ask whether or not firms who interview on campus have class rank requirements...<snip> Applicants who do not meet these criteria are not even allowed to submit their resumes to the firm."

So??? Why are you wasting your time carping about it?

Sending out resumes is the least effective means for finding a good job. A graduate of a tier one law school should know as much.

Get out and talk to people. Develop some better social skills and start networking (working lawyers, not peers).  Where do the lawyers you want to work with eat lunch, golf, or work out? I bet many of those lawyers are involved in political, charitable, civic or other organizations. The best jobs are filled long before a call for resumes goes out. Are you too inept to build your own practice or find a job via a creative, non-traditional route?

Quit your whining.

"Don't be sorry to hear about my situation. I have a job."

Then stop pouting.

"...and at least they're getting interviews. Their co-workers (tier 2, 3 and 4 graduates) can't even get those!"

Now you want to imply that non-tier-one law school grads don't get interviewed? At all? Never????

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

Again, good luck. You will need lots of it.

PSBU

shadowcreeper

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Re: LOW LSAT Score
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2004, 06:03:55 AM »
I agree that it is absurd for you to think that your experience holds true for all law students everywhere. Just because you had a rough time getting a job coming from a T1, does not mean that people who graduate in the lower portion of their T1 classes or from a T2, T3 or T4 school are not going to get jobs at all.

There are so many reasons that you could be struggling to get a job. Maybe there is a problem with your resume. Maybe you are only applying in a small area and the problem is geographic. Maybe you are only applying to in certain fields of law, maybe you need to broaden your horizons until you can establish yourself. Hell, maybe you do not interview well and that turns people off.

Another thing that comes to mind is have you taken and passed the bar yet? I would gather it is rough to get a good paying, top of the line job without having taken and passed the bar. Some people fail it repeatedly, I would think that most law firms do not want to invest in someone who has not passed the bar yet…but this is speculation on my part.

Whatever the case is, it sucks that it has been a struggle to you and to others. I am sure it was not easy because the economy sucks. I graduated from college last year and it was a pain trying to find a job. I was lucky and I managed to get a job within a month from graduation, but I know people who still do not have a job.

Sorry you are frustrated, but it is ridiculous to throw out a blanket statement that unless people are in the top portion of a T1 school they are not going to get a job. Have you ever thought that maybe you are the exception?

You are right the LSAT is important, however, some people are not good at it, do not have the time for it, or do not have aspirations to get into a T1 school. Some people hit a wall with the LSAT but they have a ton of other things to offer, so they go to the lower schools and work their way up through establishing themselves and creating a reputation for themselves. Once out of school for a while reputations set in and no one cares that you graduated from Harvard if you are a moron.  Your colleagues talk, they hear things, and just because you graduated from X school does not mean you are going to have it made.

Just my thoughts.

~K

jacy85

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Re: LOW LSAT Score
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2004, 06:21:20 AM »
I'm not really agreeing wholeheartedly with what recentgrad's saying, nor am I refuting what shadowcreeper and PSBU have said, but I'm going to throw something out from my experience, which doesn't include everyone, granted, but it at leasts adds a little more info to the pot...

I work at a law firm, and there is some truth to what recentgrad's saying.  At BC last year, anyone not in the top 25-30% of their class has had an incredibly tough time finding jobs.  This is mainly due to the economy, since BC wasn't/isn't traditionally concerned with going out and actively bringing firms in to recruit.  The firms all just came to BC since it's a great tier 1 school.  But when they stopped pouring in, there was a shortage of jobs being offered, and there is from what I've heard from these recent BC grads, many still unemployed.  A first year associate who was able to get a job at my firm said her bf, who was in the top 50% of their class, but fell short of the top 70% was only just now finding a job, over a year later.

In terms of tier 2, 3 and 4 schools, however, what recentgrad said is not necessarily true.  Conventional wisdom is that if you're not one of the top 5-10% of your class, then you won't find a big law job or any good job, and you may as well start volunteering your time or temping.  In Boston, that hasn't been the case.  Lower tiered schools, at least in Boston, seem to target smaller firms, which the big name tier 1 schools glance over.  The attorney who went to BC said she has friends that graduated from Northeastern and many more NE grads got jobs than BC.  Granted, they probably weren't making 100,000+ a year, but you could assume a decent salary, and when you have payments coming up on loans, any money is great money.

Taking this with a grain of salt, Northeastern has their co-op program, and their ls students get much more exposure to the job market and work more than other ls students, and most get jobs at firms they co-op with.

I guess the point, though, is that from what I've seen at my firm, and the discussions I've had with new attorneys about the job market and other law school issues/points of interest, it's neither as horrid as recentgrad makes it seem, nor as optimistic (easy?) as PSBU's post implies.  It's been hard for even T1 grads to get jobs, but a T3 or T4 degree doesn't mean no jobs, it just means probably not BIGLAW jobs or starting at the $100,000+ mark.

Re: LOW LSAT Score
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2004, 01:20:38 PM »
I'd like to clarify my opinions.

--The pursuit of law as a career is an overwhelmingly difficult undertaking. I believe this is obvious, self-evident, and commonly understood.

--I do not believe the pursuit of law is "easy". 

--Many aspiring lawyers fail, even some graduates of the best ranked schools.

--Many aspiring lawyers succeed, even some graduates of the worst ranked schools.

--Any outcome may be possible for any one, specific individual.

Bill Clinton and Roger Clinton came from the same home; Jimmy Carter and Billy Carter came from the same home; etc...

The most significant factors affecting any single person's success or failure in any endeavor tend to be highly individual.

PSBU

swifty

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Re: LOW LSAT Score
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2004, 02:27:53 AM »
This is very interesting to me since I won't be even going to an ABA School.
I am non-trad, (40) and I just spoke with an attorney friend of mind and asked him
if I should get a paralegal certificate and paralegal since I will be going to
law school at night.  I thought he was going to say that would be a great idea.  However,
he stated that there is no way in hell I would be happy working as a paralegal
taking orders from 25 year old attornies.  i said as long as I am working in the
law field, it would boost my chances of getting hired as a lawyer in the firm I worked
for provided I did a good job.  He said, even if you did a good job, you would hate
working for ANYONE.  You see, he knows me real well, and he knows I have been self employed
simply because I hate working for other people.  He suggested I open up a private
practice as soon as I pass the Bar.  i said how in the hell do I know how to run
a law firm?  He said, can you read?  There are books, software, research is all online
now, and he also noted I started two businesses without knowing anything about the business and running a law firm should be no different.  I thought about it for awhile, and you know what, he is right.  I will open up a small practice, I have business experience, and I do know social security law (I am on SSDI, filed my own claims), so that is a start, plus there are lots of small firms or single lawyers that are willing to sell their client list for 100% of gross revenue over 5 years.  (This is pretty standard).  So if any of you are worried about getting a job, and you have any business experience at all, think about the fact that it is very possible to go into business for yourself, and not need a job.  Will it be hard?  Absolutely, but so is finding a job.  My .02

shadowcreeper

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Re: LOW LSAT Score
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2004, 05:58:44 AM »
That is a good point swifty, if the job market is looking rough, it is always an option to open your own business and give that a shot for a little while until the job market looks better.

Re: LOW LSAT Score
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2004, 11:10:24 AM »
Swifty, I think your post is indicative of the diversity present on these boards. 

I am 37 and have been self-employed/started a few business ventures over the years. I have been "the boss" for half of my adult life. With the exception of local government trial positions (prosecutor or public defender), I can't imagine working for anyone else. I am actually looking forward to the challenge of building my own practice.

Some of us are natural entrepreneurs.

PSBU

Louder Than Bombs

Re: LOW LSAT Score
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2004, 12:25:29 PM »
PSBU, are you an attorney? Are you even a law student yet? If not, then I suggest you STFU and refrain from posting.

Re: LOW LSAT Score
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2004, 12:40:07 PM »
PSBU, are you an attorney? Are you even a law student yet? If not, then I suggest you STFU and refrain from posting.

LTB, thank you for the love.

This folder is intended to be a general discussion forum for non-traditional students, such as I. I suggest you take your ignorant and immature 25 year old self to an area of the site more suitable to your situation.

PSBU

Louder Than Bombs

Re: LOW LSAT Score
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2004, 01:16:55 PM »
This folder is intended to be a general discussion forum for non-traditional students, such as myself. I suggest you take your ignorant and immature 25 year old self to an area of the site more suitable for your situation.

PSBU

It's not a folder, feminine hygiene product-nozzle, it's a thread...

So, basically, you have no f-ing clue what you are talking about. What a shock.