Law School Discussion

Poll

yay or nay?  yes, this is heteronormative, i know i know.

a. yay
46 (74.2%)
b. nay
16 (25.8%)

Total Members Voted: 61

Girl taking guy's last name after marriage

just dot

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #160 on: April 10, 2008, 11:47:48 AM »

This is, on the whole, an excellent post.

(Though I briefly made the point in the first part of the second paragraph a long time ago - but dot makes it much clearer. I'm just selfish and had to point it out ;))

You made a ton of awesome points.  I tried to steal as many of them as possible, while being careful to re-word them just enough so as not to be accused of plagiarism.   ;D

I think we learned earlier that it's only plagiarism if you use an exclamation point?

Wait...that's not right.

GOT IT.  I WILL AVOID USING EXCLAMATION POINTS.  I CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO BE RUDE.

Astro

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #161 on: April 10, 2008, 11:49:03 AM »

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process. 

Good point.  What do you think is the cause of this?

(Note: I have a good idea what I think it is.)

Astro

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #162 on: April 10, 2008, 11:50:23 AM »
Interesting.  I missed most of this today because I was off parenting my kids.  I'm not saying I'm an authority, but I think I do have an opinion on this.

First of all, I do believe there are some basic genetic differences between men and women that affect how the genders parent in general.  Like everything else, that varies greatly from individual to individual.  I think by giving your own personal examples, you're all showing that not all women are "motherly" and that there are plenty of men who are very nurturing and will make excellent primary parents.  I am a far more involved and nurturing parent than my kids' father, but his brother is a stay-at-home dad and does a fantastic job (far better than their mother could or would do).  In this day and age, why can't everyone work with their own strengths?  If you wouldn't make a good parent, don't have a kid!  Don't expect your partner (male or female) to take up your slack just because you think your DNA needs to be represented out there.  Parenting is the hardest job ever.  If you're not up for it, don't do it.  Period.

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process.  If our country had a little more respect for what working parents could contribute, there might be more flexibility in the workplace.  Family life in the US would improve in general- for men and women.  I do agree that a daycare is a crappy place for a kid, but being stuck at home isn't the rosy, fulfilling picture that Jack is painting it, either.  It is the often the most difficult, isolating, and brainless job you can imagine.  Yes, it is rewarding to raise a child and shape their mind, but most of the day-to-day work comes down to brainless, manual labor (laundry, dishes, changing diapers, etc).  THAT is why highly intelligent women don't want to do it, Jack. 

If there had been more options for me to work while still participating fully in the parenting of my children, I would've jumped all over it.  If I hadn't been a student all of this time, I would be a crazy person right now.  I don't want to look back at 40 when my kids are raised, and realize that I did nothing with my own life.  I don't think martyrs make for good parents, either.  They just begin to resent it.  What is that teaching the children?

This is, on the whole, an excellent post.

(Though I briefly made the point in the first part of the second paragraph a long time ago - but dot makes it much clearer. I'm just selfish and had to point it out ;))

I'll throw out the caveat that I wonder if the forced career v. family dichotomy is entirely a result of a lack of respect for parenting as "women's work" (although there is obviously a lack of respect for it on those grounds).  It seems plausible to me that part of the reason that policies that would remedy this aren't put in place is in order to perpetuate the idea that women belong in the home -- by making it impossible for women to balance work in family, those who would have women maintain an inferior social role are able to point to evidence saying that we're all doomed if women work, because they won't be able to raise children properly.

That patriarchy *&^% is insidious, ain't it.


Oops.  Beaten to the punch.

LHL

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #163 on: April 10, 2008, 11:53:10 AM »
Interesting.  I missed most of this today because I was off parenting my kids.  I'm not saying I'm an authority, but I think I do have an opinion on this.

First of all, I do believe there are some basic genetic differences between men and women that affect how the genders parent in general.  Like everything else, that varies greatly from individual to individual.  I think by giving your own personal examples, you're all showing that not all women are "motherly" and that there are plenty of men who are very nurturing and will make excellent primary parents.  I am a far more involved and nurturing parent than my kids' father, but his brother is a stay-at-home dad and does a fantastic job (far better than their mother could or would do).  In this day and age, why can't everyone work with their own strengths?  If you wouldn't make a good parent, don't have a kid!  Don't expect your partner (male or female) to take up your slack just because you think your DNA needs to be represented out there.  Parenting is the hardest job ever.  If you're not up for it, don't do it.  Period.

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process.  If our country had a little more respect for what working parents could contribute, there might be more flexibility in the workplace.  Family life in the US would improve in general- for men and women.  I do agree that a daycare is a crappy place for a kid, but being stuck at home isn't the rosy, fulfilling picture that Jack is painting it, either.  It is the often the most difficult, isolating, and brainless job you can imagine.  Yes, it is rewarding to raise a child and shape their mind, but most of the day-to-day work comes down to brainless, manual labor (laundry, dishes, changing diapers, etc).  THAT is why highly intelligent women don't want to do it, Jack.  

If there had been more options for me to work while still participating fully in the parenting of my children, I would've jumped all over it.  If I hadn't been a student all of this time, I would be a crazy person right now.  I don't want to look back at 40 when my kids are raised, and realize that I did nothing with my own life.  I don't think martyrs make for good parents, either.  They just begin to resent it.  What is that teaching the children?

Great post.  I had to read a book titled The Price of Motherhood by Ann Crittenden for one of my classes and this pretty much mirrors what was discussed there.

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #164 on: April 10, 2008, 11:53:20 AM »
God, I wish it was the Dark Ages, so we could burn you all at the stake as witches. 

<-----grumbles about growing up in the wrong era.


Prestjesus

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #165 on: April 10, 2008, 11:55:39 AM »

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process. 

Good point.  What do you think is the cause of this?

(Note: I have a good idea what I think it is.)


Obviously, the root of this is women turning away from their faith towards a life of unrelenting self-indulgence at the cost of their place in heaven by shirking their duty to their men. The Lord, in his ultimate wisdom, placed uppity women and fake dinosaur “fossils” on the earth to test our patience and our faith.

BearlyLegal

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #166 on: April 10, 2008, 11:56:58 AM »

3) There is another macro/micro argument going on here that some of you guys are missing, IMO. Look, males as a macro social group commit more crime, are more likely to drop out of school, are more likely to to make impulsive decisions, etc. These things are factual, and there are significant amounts of empirical data that support them.

Why the statistics are what they are, I don't know. Could be genetics, or could be how we raise boys. But we find ourselves in a situation, where on a macro level, males as a group seem to be less socially responsible than females.  Now, that doesn't mean that some individual men may be WAY better equipped to be a primary parent than their female partners - just that taken in aggregate, Women > Men at parenting.

This doesn't mean that men shouldn't take an active role in parenting, and it certainly doesn't mean that in some relationships, men shouldn't take on the primary parental responsibilities - again, this should be determined at a micro, relationship-by-relationship level, and normative assumptions shouldn't apply.


I think the idea here, though, is that regardless of where any perceived differences are coming from, they're being used as justification to restrict women to certain social roles.  So either this needs to stop being an acceptable justification for prescribing social roles, OR these differences need to be remedied.  IMO it would be best for both genders if both occurred.

Agreed, with the added caveat that this BS process restricts men to current social roles as well. Pretty much noone benefits from the current normative construction. Maybe these rules were legitimately instated back when we used to hunt wildebeast to survive or whatever, but the times, they are a-changin'.   


BearlyLegal

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #168 on: April 10, 2008, 11:59:06 AM »

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process. 

Good point.  What do you think is the cause of this?

(Note: I have a good idea what I think it is.)


Obviously, the root of this is women turning away from their faith towards a life of unrelenting self-indulgence at the cost of their place in heaven by shirking their duty to their men. The Lord, in his ultimate wisdom, placed uppity women and fake dinosaur “fossils” on the earth to test our patience and our faith.
You are credited flame, and your name is an inspiration to us all.  TYTYTY!

You are not quite on Xman's level, but I salute you anyway!  :)

Prestjesus

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #169 on: April 10, 2008, 12:01:00 PM »
God, I wish it was the Dark Ages, so we could burn you all at the stake as witches. 

<-----grumbles about growing up in the wrong era.



Stoning is far more interactive than burning at the stake, stoning allows you to get the children involed in picking the right sized rock, perfecting thier swing, and quoting bible verses as they throw. Hence why its so popular now with those heathen religions.