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Messages - kilroy55

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I think you are painting too broad of a brush.  Harvard, Yale and Stanford obviously place quite well, but many of the other T14s place well as do several outside the T14.  Also, you have to take other factors into account.  I think what most people on this board assume is that you, of course, want to teach at the most prestigious school possible.  But, if you are only interested in the teaching aspect, many T3s and T4s have professors from all ranges of schools.  Plus, if for whatever reason you can't get into a top school, you can always go the LLM route and see how it works.  Additionally, if you go to a lower ranked school but do extremely well, you may be able to land a federal clerkship which can open some academic doors especially if you manage a Circuit Court clerkship. But, as everyone else has said, going to a T14 will help your cause tremondously.  So, if you get into one, I suggest you go if academics is what you are aiming for. 

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria
« on: June 02, 2008, 05:01:19 PM »
Wow, I am amazed at all the 0Ls giving so much advice on something they no little about.  Go where you want and look up stuff for yourself.  I would ignore the advice of people who have never worked a day as an attorney.  Good luck to you!

I fail to see how working a day as an attorney has anything to do with determining that the OP is shooting himself in the foot by deliberately going to a school that he is way overqualified for and that will likely handcuff his longterm career prospects.

Really, he should probably ignore our advice and do what he thinks is best. It is his life and making decisions that can potentially harm you is a part of life. But, he asked for it, and we're giving it. You don't exactly post on this board because you want a lot of sound advice, just advice.

It's simple.  Do you have any idea where graduates of the schools he has listed work?  Have you ever practiced with any of them?  Do you practice in an area where you have been exposed to Regent graduates or Ave Marie graduates (I point to these two because Liberty only recently has graduates, so we have no idea what type of attorneys they will make)?  What do you know, in fact, about these schools other than they were founded by Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and the founder of Dominoes Pizza?  You assume he will have a difficult time finding a job in what he wants to do.  Do you know this for sure?  Do you practice in Virginia or Michigan?  Perhaps he is making a great career choice.  Perhaps, the area he wants to live in has quitea few graduates from those schools.  Maybe the local DAs office in his county is filled with Regent grads and he could get a job if he does well.  You wouldn't think it, but I can name two Pennsylvania counties filled with nothing but Widner-Harrisburg graduates in their DAs Officer.  They like to kick higher ranked school attorneys around the court room on a regular basis.  I mean, I point these things about because BIGLAW which so many of you on this board covet, is having problems recently.  Seems lots of attorneys are being laid off all over the place -- big, small and medium firms all over.  Perhaps a devotion to public service is what he wants and the financially smart move for him.

Just because, some people want to be exposed to broad ranging points of view does not mean everyone wants to be.  Many people, lawyers included, like to be surrounded with like minded people.  That is why so many firms are riddled with complete assholes.  Perhaps, he wants to be around individuals who may hold similar beliefs, because in that environment he would feel most comfortable which will enable him to perform better in courses.  

All I am pointing out is there are more considerations to be given than just the arbitrary number on a US news ranking list.  Yes, graduating from Harvard opens all sorts of doors.  Everyone knows this.  But outside the T14, life is hard for anyone who isn't in the top half, third or tenth in a class.  If you need more evidence, I can give you names of plenty of graduates of T1 and T2 schools still looking for permanent work.  I also will point out that someone who has never been to law school and never applied for post-graduate or summer jobs should limit their "advice" to areas they know something about.  You could be reading this board next summer lamenting how no one hired you for pay or at all.  Or, you could have washed out of school all together.  But as you say, he asked.

PS to my fellow nittany lion zuckpsu -- good luck on the bar.  I too should be studying, but after 10 hours I'm a little spent.  Good luck!  

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Liberty, Regent or Ave Maria
« on: June 02, 2008, 01:06:54 PM »
Wow, I am amazed at all the 0Ls giving so much advice on something they no little about.  Go where you want and look up stuff for yourself.  I would ignore the advice of people who have never worked a day as an attorney.  Good luck to you!

Job Search / Re: Jobless 3L Needs Advice
« on: May 27, 2008, 09:23:34 PM »
Go to your local DA's Office and volunteer, assuming of course it isn't one the top DA's office in the country.  Most will take you because they are desperate for the help.  Talk to professors who know you or know your work...see if they know people who can hook you up locally.  Hit the pavement!  And don't just rely on the internet.  Sometimes it is going to take some old fashioned footwork or sifting through the yellow pages.   

Well let me think...of the people that I know personally, the jobs are all over the spectrum.  Personally, I'm clerking for a federal judge in Harrisburg.  Of the other people I know, several are clerking for federal judges elsewhere. (1 in Arizona, 1 in WD VA, 1 in WD PA, 2 more in MD PA).  Lets see, two are working federal jobs (IRS and Department of Navy).  Several in firms all over PA and the mid-Atlantic--too numerous to name all the firms.  Numerous clerking for Common Pleas judges...Superior Court judges and PA Supreme Court Justices.  Plus, several working as ADAs in Philly, Harrisburg, Lancaster etc...  Not to mention the people I know doing public interest work.  I know several people, including myself, who are not taking the PA bar--Most of those people are taking NY, Mass and VA.  The majority of my friends are employed--three are unemployed as of graduation when I last saw everyone. 

As you can see, the jobs are all over the map.  Pretty much everyone is going into different areas.  I will say that your chances of BIGLAW outside the Top 10% and law review are slim.  I will not sugar coat it.  While i did not intend for it to happen, many of my friends happened to be great students.  So, my sample of job prospects represent a portion of the class who were above average.   Most of them are in the Top third of the class.  You will have job opportunities if you work hard and do well, but we are not a T1 school.  So don't expect miracles.  You will have to work for it.       

Exactly what everyone else has already said.  I recently graduated from Penn State.  We place really well in Pennsylvania, particularly in central and eastern Pa.  I have no idea why anyone would think the city of Richmond is head and shoulders above Harrisburg.  They are about the same.  Also, are you looking at Carlisle or University Park?  University Park is a college town and the main campus for Penn State (see 40,000 students).  Harrisburg itself is smaller than Richmond, but the surrounding area has approximately the same size population as Richmond.  It is about the same distance from DC (Carlisle location at least), but closer to Baltimore, Philly and New York.  You really just have to decide on where you want to live post graduation if there is no money involved.  While many students leave central PA, myself included once my federal clerkship is over, it will take good grades from Dickinson to travel out of the mid-Atlantic region.  Lastly, if you are truly stuck and have no idea because the places are so similar...the name Penn State (thanks to JoePa) carries further and you will be in new facilities starting in January at Penn State.  But that is about it.  Seriously, good luck.  The schools are so similar.  If you care to know, I chose Penn State over Richmond, but it was a close call.   

Same here -- 103, and C+ in the class.  My lowest law school grade. It still pisses me off, but I had a pretty bad professor.

Current Law Students / Re: What is the most difficult 1L subject ??
« on: May 20, 2008, 10:05:56 AM »
It really depends.  Some people, such as myself, do well in courses that are procedural or constitutional in nature.  I had nothing but As in Con Law, Crim Pro and Civ Pro, and then later in Conflicts (essentially Adv. Civ Pro I took third year).  But, I always sucked at Torts and Family law.  You will find you might have a strength in some areas but not in others.  Most people think Civ Pro is the hardest first year course, but I personally think it is contracts.  Civ Pro is hard because most people take it their first semester of law school.  It is a scary and intimidating class to have right out of the gate, but if it were taught second-year I think most people wouldn't think it was so bad. 

Current Law Students / Re: Mostly A's...How much will a C hurt?
« on: May 15, 2008, 08:47:54 AM »
I had the same problem the fall of my second year.  I took a 2 credit class and didn't take it seriously enough and got a C+.  It will hurt, but not too much.  I think my overall gpa slipped my 0.03.  It really didn't affect my rank, which was nice.  It will hurt, but it shouldn't kill you.  Also, my law school experience tells me that the exams that I think I did the worst on, I usually got an A.  So don't fret, enjoy the summer.

The federal courts have access to both.

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