Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: ->Soon on March 26, 2006, 09:15:24 AM

Title: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on March 26, 2006, 09:15:24 AM
Personally, I couldnt see myself with kids.

wayyyyyyyy to mucj hassle!!!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: dodo97 on March 27, 2006, 01:47:20 AM
Although I'm only 27, it seems like my desire to NOT have kids is a major roadblock to any serious girlfriend.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on March 27, 2006, 07:23:30 AM
Yep, I got a few years on you, but im in the same boat.

and at my age, they eithe have kids(yuck) or want them( double yuck)    :'(
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Highway on March 27, 2006, 09:48:46 AM
I was the same way. Now I have two of them. Somedays I still don't want them... :)

I don't say this to suggest that you'll change your mind...I heard that enough when I was younger to know how stupid it sounded. I'm just saying that you can plan all you want, but sometimes people get pregnant and you become a mom or dad. There are options, of course, but you review your situation at the time and make that decision.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on March 27, 2006, 09:57:08 AM
Yeah, well, no worry about getting anyone preggo right now.. >:(
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: terralily on March 27, 2006, 10:00:27 AM
Kids are dirty and loud and sticky.  Plus I think I would be a terrible mom.  I'd have a five yo with a sailor's mouth  :D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on March 27, 2006, 12:42:55 PM
Yep.  Im thinking I need to hurry up and get snipped, that way I can avoid that danger.

When they start batting those pretty eyes at you   ::)  you lose ALL common sense!!!!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: dividebyzero on March 27, 2006, 12:46:10 PM
They (doctors) absolutely will not snip if you don't have kids already.
It's bizarre, and more than a little annoying...

I *do* plan on having kids, but MUCH, MUCH later in my life than the overwhelming majority of my peers have...Something about being away from your family makes em' anxious to start their own as soon as possible with whomever will oblige them.

Besides, kids are sticky, and they wouldn't match any of my sweet parkas.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Phatmal on March 27, 2006, 01:50:10 PM
I was the same way. Now I have two of them. Somedays I still don't want them... :)

I don't say this to suggest that you'll change your mind...I heard that enough when I was younger to know how stupid it sounded. I'm just saying that you can plan all you want, but sometimes people get pregnant and you become a mom or dad. There are options, of course, but you review your situation at the time and make that decision.

This is the MAJOR benefit of being in a gay marriage...no unplanned pregnancies!   :)
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on March 27, 2006, 02:13:43 PM
They (doctors) absolutely will not snip if you don't have kids already.
It's bizarre, and more than a little annoying...

I *do* plan on having kids, but MUCH, MUCH later in my life than the overwhelming majority of my peers have...Something about being away from your family makes em' anxious to start their own as soon as possible with whomever will oblige them.

Besides, kids are sticky, and they wouldn't match any of my sweet parkas.

This is not true. I know someone who did it in his late 20s with no kids, but he has a chronic illness that may be genetically passed on.

As for the OP, I am in my very late 20s and have no interest in kids whatsoever. I just don't see them fitting into my life at any point.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jacy85 on March 27, 2006, 07:55:46 PM
This BETTER NOT be true...otherwise some doctor is going to get an earful from me when my fiance finally decides to have it done in a few years.  If you've thougth it out, and have decided you don't want a screaming pooping machine that will do nothing but suck the life and cash out of you for 18+ years, the doctor damn well better respect your decision!  >:(

They (doctors) absolutely will not snip if you don't have kids already.
It's bizarre, and more than a little annoying...

I *do* plan on having kids, but MUCH, MUCH later in my life than the overwhelming majority of my peers have...Something about being away from your family makes em' anxious to start their own as soon as possible with whomever will oblige them.

Besides, kids are sticky, and they wouldn't match any of my sweet parkas.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: verbal on March 27, 2006, 08:06:40 PM
i have been telling my friends all year that i would much rather have a boat than a kid. U can do so much with your  life if your 27 have a great job and no kids holding u back. i just want to be able to take a few weeks off work during the summer, go out on my boat. lay on my hammock and drink a corona while listening to my ipod. man what a life.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on March 28, 2006, 05:11:40 AM
I have a freind, she has a brat(3 actually, ones a baby) and she has NO life.

She cant do anything.

She hasnt even really left the house in months.

and then she tries to persuade how great it is?!?!?!?!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jashdey on March 28, 2006, 04:14:10 PM
This BETTER NOT be true...otherwise some doctor is going to get an earful from me when my fiance finally decides to have it done in a few years.

It's not true.  Depending on your age, you may find resistance and have to shop around for a doctor, but they are out there.  Planned Parenthood can often make referrals to doctors if needed.

For the guys out there looking for CF (childfree) women - they are SO out there.  You're just hanging out in the wrong places. ;)

For anyone interested, there's a great mailing list that dicusses this topic (and many many others) at www.childfree.net.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: dodo97 on March 29, 2006, 02:34:05 PM
I have a freind, she has a brat(3 actually, ones a baby) and she has NO life.

She cant do anything.

She hasnt even really left the house in months.

and then she tries to persuade how great it is?!?!?!?!

A sports columnist that I read was covering the Super Bowl in Houston and was talking about how many kids were at the "NFL Experience, and your post reminded me of what he wrote:

Did you ever want to have kids? Well, don't attend the NFL Experience. At about the 45-minute mark -- after the 20th time somebody rolls their baby stroller into the side of your leg (and doesn't even think to apologize), or a little boy sprints directly into your crotch at full speed -- you feel the soul start to leak from your body.

Here's the deal with kids: When you get married, your other friends who have kids tell you, "It's great, you have to do it, it's the best experience you'll ever have!"

And then they spend the next 15 minutes telling you how they don't sleep, they get up three times a night, their kids keep getting them sick, they haven't left the house in three months, they stink like diapers, they can't find a good babysitter, they never have sex, and they don't have time to watch TV, follow sports, play sports, go to the movies or basically do anything at all. Really, it sounds fantastic!

I have a theory on this: I think 90 percent of parents can't believe how miserable they are, so they make a secret pact and try to get everyone else to have kids, just so everyone else is in the same boat and they don't have to hear stories about four-course dinners, Vegas trips, romantic getaway weekends and everything else. They're like Jim Jones in Guyana -- "Drink the Kool-Aid, seriously, it's phenomenal! You have to try this!"
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: terralily on March 29, 2006, 04:58:17 PM
They're like Jim Jones in Guyana -- "Drink the Kool-Aid, seriously, it's phenomenal! You have to try this!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA  I think this is the funniest thing I have read ALL day!  Thank you.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on March 29, 2006, 08:18:59 PM
yep, i think its a big scam.

she told me that after she had the last baby, she and her hubby havent had sex.

and the baby is 2!!!!!

 :o
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on March 30, 2006, 10:47:08 AM
just saw a lady at Wendy's with 4 brats with her.

bwuhahahahahahaha

she was so flustered!!!

yeah, thats the life I want!!

not!!!!!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: check01 on April 03, 2006, 01:22:31 AM
This BETTER NOT be true...otherwise some doctor is going to get an earful from me when my fiance finally decides to have it done in a few years.  If you've thougth it out, and have decided you don't want a screaming pooping machine that will do nothing but suck the life and cash out of you for 18+ years, the doctor damn well better respect your decision!  >:(

Ha ha, I love this.  "I'm 100% certain that I'm not going to have kids, sperm leaving my body can cause nothing but trouble, so in a few years or so I'm finally going to decide to do something about it."  If only everyone could be that decisive and action-oriented.

For many years I was in the "no kids ever" camp and finally came around to the "OK, just one" camp. I also believed that parents were a cult trying to suck others into their vortex of misery so they could justify their bad decisions. I see now how stupid that was.

I have no problem with people who don't want to have kids. Personally, I think the world would be a better place if our species went extinct. But listening to childless people rant and rave about how horrible it is to be a parent is a little like listening to a virgin rant and rave about how horrible it is to have sex: "Eew, it's messy and smelly and noisy and embarassing and dangerous! Disgusting! And eventually it leads to anger and hurt feelings and ruined friendships!"

I tell ranting childless people the same thing I would tell that virgin: Since so many people are doing it, can you wrap your head around the possibility that there might be an upside to it?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jacy85 on April 03, 2006, 04:52:56 AM
Well, the fact that I'm 24 and he's 27 means that we can't do it now anyway.  I'm fairly certain most doctors would counsel that "that's too young."  We're getting married next year, so we'll wait a few years after that, probably sometime after I turn 30.

And while it's great that you changed your mind, not everyone does.  You should respect that.  ;)
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: dodo97 on April 03, 2006, 10:36:38 AM
I fully aknowledge that having kids can be a wonderful thing to many -- if not most -- people. But I also realize that I have neither the desire or the patience or the lack of selfishness to be a decent parent. So if I don't have kids, everybody wins!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Slider on April 05, 2006, 01:41:54 AM
Well I have a kid. I'm 22 years old, and I'm not going to say that it's been easy, but it's been worth every second of it.

The funny thing is, you won't know it until you experience it yourself. I told myself I was NEVER having children. Then one day... OOPS.

In my experience, your PRIORITIES change. Suddenly you are more fulfilled by watching your child sleep or discover the world, than being out drinking a Corona.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Old-and-in-the-Way on April 05, 2006, 05:29:47 AM
Being non-traditional in just about every sense, I got snipped at a childless 23. If you asked me why at the time, I would have said that the world is small and is getting smaller with every child. I would have also said that I didn't need a surrogate ego to justify actions, which, if directed to myself, could only be described as selfish. I guess I saw so many of my lefty friends with kids (first one, but almost always another or two) signing up for private schools, thinking school vouchers weren't that bad an idea, suddenly thinking cities weren't good places to live, buying gas guzzling minivans in anticipation of all the wonderfully enriching lessons, sports, and privilege enhancing circles to which they would transport their kids.

Twenty years later, I don't regret not having kids. It helps that I work with a lot of students, and so get a lot of vicarious parenting in without a lot of the sticky, smelly stuff. What I do regret, is thinking ill of people who did.  Many those friends raised some really interesting people. I still wish they didn't drive those gas-guzzlers though.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jvan2619 on April 05, 2006, 07:02:11 AM
I think everyone is different in what they want to do, and I truly respect that.

As someone mentioned earlier, if you don't want kids it is better to not have them than give in to peer pressure and have ones you don't want.  I think it is great that you all know what you want in life.  My cousin just got divorced because his wife told him three years in to their marriage that she never wanted kids.  He wanted a huge family and they determined that their goals in life were VERY different.  Better to know now, then three years in to a marriage right?  The world would be a better place if more people knew what they wanted :)

Just my 2 cents :)

Also, getting snipped is reversible right?  So if you did, you could always change your mind later????

As you can see to the left I have a daughter and plan on having more - I love kids - however, I completely understand that it is not for everyone. 

Best wishes to you all.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: back2school on April 07, 2006, 07:52:08 AM
don't get snipped!  I went through hell with pain afterwards.  It took me several years to get over...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on April 08, 2006, 08:18:58 PM
I hear getting snipped is like a kick in the groin.

 :o

ouch!!!

maybe they could just come out with a shot for men.

combo cialis/birth control   ;D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jashdey on April 08, 2006, 10:07:40 PM
I know lots of men that have had vasectomies and were fine in just a few days.  Just like with any surgery, some people will have a more difficult recovery, but it isn't the norm.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: justGem on April 13, 2006, 09:20:34 AM
Kids are dirty and loud and sticky.  Plus I think I would be a terrible mom.  I'd have a five yo with a sailor's mouth   :D

I have a 2 y.o. with one of those. And yes they are dirty, loud and sticky.  My 2 y.o. uses his hair for a napkin and eats dirt but at the end of the day they are non-stop entertainment. It's like having an in-house sit-com that is hilarious (if you can step out of the box).
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: prestigesq on April 13, 2006, 09:23:20 AM
I plan on having two little brats to send off to school like I was.  I'll see them a few times a year, at holidays mainly, then at their Exeter graduation.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Esq Now on April 13, 2006, 09:47:28 AM
verbal said "i just want to be able to take a few weeks off work during the summer, go out on my boat. lay on my hammock and drink a corona while listening to my ipod. man what a life."

You are so going to love being a lawyer.  That pretty much describes my life right now (except that "weeks" off aren't continguous).  Don't have kids, don't want kids, and plan never to have kids.  The wife has never been exactly happy about that, but she knew it going into the deal.

Being a lawyer with kids (at least in private practice) can be murder, unless your spouse doesn't mind doing everything and never having you around. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: dividebyzero on April 13, 2006, 09:51:55 AM
Unless medical science reaches a point where I can be guaranteed children with no genetic defects, then I won't be breeding.

For some reason, the people in my particular field have abnormally high levels of birth defects and the like, most likely due to the radiation to which we're exposed daily. I can't say where I work or in what field, but the prevalence of both birth defects and the reality of radiation exposure has made me wary.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: latinlord on April 13, 2006, 09:57:42 AM
Wow I must be the only one who actually wants kids. I envision myself hopefully getting married after law school and then having kids sometime later on. I want a family and I want to be a lawyer. It can be done and has been for many generations, if not then why would so many of my student peers say be saying, "both my parents are lawyers". I just want it allllllllllllll ;D ;D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: latinlord on April 13, 2006, 10:27:46 AM
Wow Latinlord...I haven't seen you in forever. Congrats on your other acceptances!

Thank you, yea i haven't said much on the board lately, I still look at it almost everyday. I haven't gotten any more news from a bunch of other schools. So there really hasn't been anything decent to post about, plus i'm starting to get ready for the big move in a month. Nervousness, excitment and many other feeling are comming across my mind as I get closer and closer to leaving for school. Thank you again for the Congrats and Congrats to you too!! You got into incredible schools!!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: latinlord on April 13, 2006, 11:03:14 AM
Thanks buddy. Let us know how the big move goes.

Have you decided yet where you are going to be headed??? ARe you still waiting on a few schools?? Which school is leading the pack for you as they say?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Esq Now on April 13, 2006, 12:51:28 PM
Papa said "If I choose to make time for my family and structure my work/life around that...whole different story."

Well, as the saying goes, good luck with that.   :D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: kaest4 on April 17, 2006, 01:45:10 PM
I have a nephew who turned 6 last month, I have friends who have kids. I am too selfish.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 19, 2006, 10:32:12 PM
Kids are expensive.  If I can afford them, I'll consider it.  I'd have to have an insanely high income before it could even come under consideration though, something around $400k gross, minimum, at today's prices (unless the real estate market crashes or public schools in my city stop being off limits).
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: check01 on April 20, 2006, 10:47:47 AM
Kids are expensive.  If I can afford them, I'll consider it.  I'd have to have an insanely high income before it could even come under consideration though, something around $400k gross, minimum, at today's prices (unless the real estate market crashes or public schools in my city stop being off limits).

If that's how much you need to make to have a kid, you should keep all the cash. You'd save a lot of money if you let the nanny from South America raise her own children instead of yours.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 20, 2006, 06:28:50 PM
Kids are expensive.  If I can afford them, I'll consider it.  I'd have to have an insanely high income before it could even come under consideration though, something around $400k gross, minimum, at today's prices (unless the real estate market crashes or public schools in my city stop being off limits).

If that's how much you need to make to have a kid, you should keep all the cash. You'd save a lot of money if you let the nanny from South America raise her own children instead of yours.

actually, that's without any thought of a nanny.  that's not in the necessary expense calculation...

Modest house (and I'm really saying modest, not too small, but nothing spectacular): $1.5m, @ 6%: $9000/mo
Taxes: $16000 yr
Insurance: $2000 yr
Maintenance + Utilities: $10000
Other than kid expenses: $20k/yr (I can live off that, includes food, a run-of-the-mill Honda, etc)
Savings: $10k/yr
-----------------------------------------
total: $166k

AMT kicks in, assume 35% overall federal + state tax rate.

income necessary before even CONSIDERING a kid: $255k

-------------------------------------------------------------

Kid expenses: $6k/yr (summer camps, food, etc, etc)
Kid education: $25k/yr (K-12, $50k/yr college)

Not tax deductible, so, another $31/.65 = ~ $47k -- even more at college, but less early on, so evens out

--------------------------------------------------------------

Total MINIMUM necessary income: ~$300k.

--------------------------------------------------------------

And that's without a Brazillian nanny, or a BMW.

I was $100k off.  Fine.  Same idea, $300k, 400k might as well be a mil to me today.

Anything wrong with the calculations?  That's really just to afford to raise a child, nothing much, nothing pretentious.  Want to be able to send them to summer camp, pay for piano lessons, sports teams, etc.  And live in relatively nice, unpretentious home, in a decent neighborhood, attending a decent school.

Sure, it's a lot less if the house doesn't cost a fortune, and public schools are decent, but I mentioned that at the beginning.  I like it here, regardless the costs.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jacy85 on April 20, 2006, 07:26:20 PM
actually, that's without any thought of a nanny.  that's not in the necessary expense calculation...

Modest house (and I'm really saying modest, not too small, but nothing spectacular): $1.5m, @ 6%: $9000/mo
Taxes: $16000 yr
Insurance: $2000 yr
Maintenance + Utilities: $10000
Other than kid expenses: $20k/yr (I can live off that, includes food, a run-of-the-mill Honda, etc)
Savings: $10k/yr
-----------------------------------------
total: $166k

AMT kicks in, assume 35% overall federal + state tax rate.

income necessary before even CONSIDERING a kid: $255k

-------------------------------------------------------------

Kid expenses: $6k/yr (summer camps, food, etc, etc)
Kid education: $25k/yr (K-12, $50k/yr college)

Not tax deductible, so, another $31/.65 = ~ $47k -- even more at college, but less early on, so evens out

--------------------------------------------------------------

Total MINIMUM necessary income: ~$300k.

--------------------------------------------------------------

And that's without a Brazillian nanny, or a BMW.

I was $100k off.  Fine.  Same idea, $300k, 400k might as well be a mil to me today.

Anything wrong with the calculations?  That's really just to afford to raise a child, nothing much, nothing pretentious.  Want to be able to send them to summer camp, pay for piano lessons, sports teams, etc.  And live in relatively nice, unpretentious home, in a decent neighborhood, attending a decent school.

Sure, it's a lot less if the house doesn't cost a fortune, and public schools are decent, but I mentioned that at the beginning.  I like it here, regardless the costs.

I hope to god you're not serious...

And if you are serious:  you make me sick.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 20, 2006, 07:29:37 PM
actually, that's without any thought of a nanny.  that's not in the necessary expense calculation...

Modest house (and I'm really saying modest, not too small, but nothing spectacular): $1.5m, @ 6%: $9000/mo
Taxes: $16000 yr
Insurance: $2000 yr
Maintenance + Utilities: $10000
Other than kid expenses: $20k/yr (I can live off that, includes food, a run-of-the-mill Honda, etc)
Savings: $10k/yr
-----------------------------------------
total: $166k

AMT kicks in, assume 35% overall federal + state tax rate.

income necessary before even CONSIDERING a kid: $255k

-------------------------------------------------------------

Kid expenses: $6k/yr (summer camps, food, etc, etc)
Kid education: $25k/yr (K-12, $50k/yr college)

Not tax deductible, so, another $31/.65 = ~ $47k -- even more at college, but less early on, so evens out

--------------------------------------------------------------

Total MINIMUM necessary income: ~$300k.

--------------------------------------------------------------

And that's without a Brazillian nanny, or a BMW.

I was $100k off.  Fine.  Same idea, $300k, 400k might as well be a mil to me today.

Anything wrong with the calculations?  That's really just to afford to raise a child, nothing much, nothing pretentious.  Want to be able to send them to summer camp, pay for piano lessons, sports teams, etc.  And live in relatively nice, unpretentious home, in a decent neighborhood, attending a decent school.

Sure, it's a lot less if the house doesn't cost a fortune, and public schools are decent, but I mentioned that at the beginning.  I like it here, regardless the costs.

I hope to god you're not serious...

And if you are serious:  you make me sick.

I'm serious.  You'd understand if you lived here.  The cost of living is pretty insane.  $1.5m buys about what $300k buys in Atlanta, if not less.  As for minimum standards required for having a child, the public schools here are unfathomably bad, and I don't think that $6k is unreasonable as the amount necessary to spend on a child, that's what I'd need to provide what my parents managed to provide for me, on a much lower income, because housing cost a hell of a lot less, and public schools were still at least tenable.  Nor is $20k unreasonable for COL (food, car, car insurance, and a few occasional goodies).  What's wrong with it?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jvan2619 on April 21, 2006, 08:20:34 AM
Based on what you have stated is important to you ... do the world a favor and NEVER have children.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 21, 2006, 09:07:12 AM
Based on what you have stated is important to you ... do the world a favor and NEVER have children.

Providing a home, an education, at least some activities for them to enjoy, and the tools necessary to succeed means I should never have children?  Or that anyone who wishes to live in a city shouldn't have children?  On the contrary, I think if I can't provide even the basics, I don't deserve them, not vice versa.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jvan2619 on April 21, 2006, 11:08:12 AM
That is a great point LawMan!

norcaldude - Really, I have nothing against ANYONE who doesn't want children.  It's completely a personal decision and preference, but if you really think you need that much money to provide what you consider as "the basics" for your children than you are just making selfish excuses.  A $1.5M house?  Really?  That is what you believe is "necessary"?  Let me tell you my friend, if you think that you have to have a $1.5M house (even in NYC) to provide the basics for your children you are sorely mistaken. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jacy85 on April 21, 2006, 11:14:28 AM
People that can afford much more than a $1.5 million dollar house, and "activities" for their kids do a horrible job of providing the basics.

You seem to really have a warped view of what is a "necessity."  A kid doesn't need to go to summer school.  A kid doesn't NEED to go to the best private school money can offer.  A kid NEEDS parents that will read with them, play board games with them, talk to them about life, and provide guidance without being overprotective.  None of this requires a $1.5 million dollar house, and $6 grand for summer camp and tennis lessons.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 21, 2006, 11:27:22 AM
People that can afford much more than a $1.5 million dollar house, and "activities" for their kids do a horrible job of providing the basics.

You seem to really have a warped view of what is a "necessity."  A kid doesn't need to go to summer school.  A kid doesn't NEED to go to the best private school money can offer.  A kid NEEDS parents that will read with them, play board games with them, talk to them about life, and provide guidance without being overprotective.  None of this requires a $1.5 million dollar house, and $6 grand for summer camp and tennis lessons.

Those are all necessities.  Reading, board games, guidance, a home to call their own, organic foods, tennis lessons, and summer camps as well (although the latter can be foregone if one parent stays home).  Some don't require anything in terms of income, just time.  Which makes having the kind of income necessary even higher, as you'd need to have not only $300k gross, but $300k gross without 80 hour weeks.

Rather than a $1.5m home + private schooling, I can forsee a $800k-$1.2m home with no extra educational expenses in a suburb.  The further away one moves from the city, the cheaper a decent home in a suburb with good schools can be had.  Any suburbs with prices lower than around $800k mean you'll commute too long to spend time with said kids.  And in that sense I am selfish, I will not live in a suburb.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jacy85 on April 21, 2006, 05:17:46 PM
And again, you're just continuing to prove that you have a really warped idea of what's a basic necessity.  Many things you seem to feel are "necessities" are really luxuries that no one really needs.

A 1.5 million dollar house is NOT a necessity, and I don't care what city you're living in.

Please decide to never have children.  Your warped, yuppy values shouldn't be passed on to another generation.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 21, 2006, 06:53:45 PM
And again, you're just continuing to prove that you have a really warped idea of what's a basic necessity.  Many things you seem to feel are "necessities" are really luxuries that no one really needs.

A 1.5 million dollar house is NOT a necessity, and I don't care what city you're living in.

Please decide to never have children.  Your warped, yuppy values shouldn't be passed on to another generation.

If I fail to make biglaw that will allow me to purchase a house for credit, and fail to join a startup that gives me the necessary equity to buy a house for cash money, you shall have your wish. 

I can survive satisfactorily as long as I have a roof over my head and food on the table, but before I have kids I'd need to be able to provide for them.  My warped yuppie values are my sense of the American Dream, yours may be different.  I'd love to have children some day, but I'd need to be able to afford them without asking for handouts.

Maybe: A $300k house is not a necessity in major low COL city?  But then you'd rethink that statement I figure...  :-[
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: upNdown on April 21, 2006, 08:54:00 PM

Modest house (and I'm really saying modest, not too small, but nothing spectacular): $1.5m, @ 6%: $9000/mo
Taxes: $16000 yr
Insurance: $2000 yr
Maintenance + Utilities: $10000
Other than kid expenses: $20k/yr (I can live off that, includes food, a run-of-the-mill Honda, etc)
Savings: $10k/yr
-----------------------------------------
total: $166k

AMT kicks in, assume 35% overall federal + state tax rate.

income necessary before even CONSIDERING a kid: $255k

-------------------------------------------------------------

Kid expenses: $6k/yr (summer camps, food, etc, etc)
Kid education: $25k/yr (K-12, $50k/yr college)

Not tax deductible, so, another $31/.65 = ~ $47k -- even more at college, but less early on, so evens out


You forgot the final line:

Having kids: PRICELESS

Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: upNdown on April 22, 2006, 05:12:06 AM

Modest house (and I'm really saying modest, not too small, but nothing spectacular): $1.5m, @ 6%: $9000/mo
Taxes: $16000 yr
Insurance: $2000 yr
Maintenance + Utilities: $10000
Other than kid expenses: $20k/yr (I can live off that, includes food, a run-of-the-mill Honda, etc)
Savings: $10k/yr
-----------------------------------------
total: $166k

AMT kicks in, assume 35% overall federal + state tax rate.

income necessary before even CONSIDERING a kid: $255k

-------------------------------------------------------------

Kid expenses: $6k/yr (summer camps, food, etc, etc)
Kid education: $25k/yr (K-12, $50k/yr college)

Not tax deductible, so, another $31/.65 = ~ $47k -- even more at college, but less early on, so evens out


You forgot the final line:

Having kids: PRICELESS



I have to add that if you honestly believe you need an over/under income level to have kids, you're a fool.  There's nothing wrong with deciding not to have kids; it is understandable to NOT want to give 20 years of your life and hundreds of thousands of dollars away.  But that is a decision you have to find within yourself, NOT WITHIN YOUR WALLET.

The best advice I ever heard on this topic (which I ignored, BTW) was simple: If you wait until you can afford children, you'll never have kids.  To me, it seems like you can never afford kids, yet you can always afford them.  Kind of a paradox, but its true.     
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 22, 2006, 11:53:39 PM
The best advice I ever heard on this topic (which I ignored, BTW) was simple: If you wait until you can afford children, you'll never have kids.  To me, it seems like you can never afford kids, yet you can always afford them.  Kind of a paradox, but its true.     

Suit yourself.  I set a few targets for having kids (a house, being to afford their education, not clipping coupons to get by), I don't see those targets changing... I'll never have kids if I don't see myself reaching those targets.

Worst thing I could do is move to the suburbs and raise a little baseball player in a school that emphasizes sports over academics...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jacy85 on April 23, 2006, 05:03:34 AM
Worst thing I could do is move to the suburbs and raise a little baseball player in a school that emphasizes sports over academics...

And THIS right here is part of your problem.  It doesn't matter what the school emphsizes.  Your kid will get the education you want him to have if you do it right. 

And I'd also like to point out that you seem to have some major stereotypical, warped views of suburbs.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 23, 2006, 08:42:47 AM
Worst thing I could do is move to the suburbs and raise a little baseball player in a school that emphasizes sports over academics...

And THIS right here is part of your problem.  It doesn't matter what the school emphsizes.  Your kid will get the education you want him to have if you do it right. 

And I'd also like to point out that you seem to have some major stereotypical, warped views of suburbs.

I've lived in one for a short period.  It's a decent last resort... but ones with decent schools aren't going to lower the cost of housing, just the cost of tuition. 

Don't know about you, but I find it much easier to study when people around me are studying; not sure how well I would have done in a typical football-first high school.

There is a certain extent to which I'm willing to lower MY standard of living to have kids, living in a suburb isn't part of the equation.  In that sense I admit to being selfish.  But there's nothing wrong with my calculations for anybody who plans to stay in a world-class city, which nobody seems to want to admit...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 23, 2006, 09:36:17 AM


Worst thing I could do is move to the suburbs and raise a little baseball player in a school that emphasizes sports over academics...

Why the worst?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 23, 2006, 09:39:24 AM


Worst thing I could do is move to the suburbs and raise a little baseball player in a school that emphasizes sports over academics...

Why the worst?

Thatis, what does the child lose?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 23, 2006, 09:41:58 AM


Worst thing I could do is move to the suburbs and raise a little baseball player in a school that emphasizes sports over academics...

Why the worst?

Thatis, what does the child lose?

1) A content parent.
2) Almost any chance at having a lifestyle better than his parents...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 23, 2006, 09:43:41 AM


Worst thing I could do is move to the suburbs and raise a little baseball player in a school that emphasizes sports over academics...

Why the worst?

Thatis, what does the child lose?

1) A content parent.
2) Almost any chance at having a lifestyle better than his parents...

1)  Your happiness would not be based on the child's?
2)  What if that's not importnt to him / her?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 23, 2006, 09:47:46 AM
As I said, the worst thing I, personally, could do.  I'm sure people can be happy in the midwest, or in suburbs, etc, I can't.

Plenty of people in suburbs who move there for the sole purpose of raising children are miserable.  I'd be one of them, even if said children are "happy".  That's the kind of crap that leads to divorces, fights, etc.  Not for me.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 23, 2006, 09:49:36 AM
As I said, the worst thing I, personally, could do.  I'm sure people can be happy in the midwest, or in suburbs, etc, I can't.

Plenty of people in suburbs who move there for the sole purpose of raising children are miserable.  I'd be one of them, even if said children are "happy".  That's the kind of crap that leads to divorces, fights, etc.  Not for me.

Any interest in answering the questions posed?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 23, 2006, 09:57:49 AM
Any interest in answering the questions posed?

I answered the first one, I think the answer was something along the lines of my kids can't be happy if I'm miserable, and I'll be miserable regardless outside a my kind of city, so it's a circle.

As for the second question, I have to make sure to provide such that the goals I had, or greater ones, can be accomplished if wanted.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Steve.jd on April 23, 2006, 06:07:53 PM
Kids are expensive.  If I can afford them, I'll consider it.  I'd have to have an insanely high income before it could even come under consideration though, something around $400k gross, minimum, at today's prices (unless the real estate market crashes or public schools in my city stop being off limits).

If that's how much you need to make to have a kid, you should keep all the cash. You'd save a lot of money if you let the nanny from South America raise her own children instead of yours.

actually, that's without any thought of a nanny.  that's not in the necessary expense calculation...

Modest house (and I'm really saying modest, not too small, but nothing spectacular): $1.5m, @ 6%: $9000/mo
Taxes: $16000 yr
Insurance: $2000 yr
Maintenance + Utilities: $10000
Other than kid expenses: $20k/yr (I can live off that, includes food, a run-of-the-mill Honda, etc)
Savings: $10k/yr
-----------------------------------------
total: $166k

AMT kicks in, assume 35% overall federal + state tax rate.

income necessary before even CONSIDERING a kid: $255k

-------------------------------------------------------------

Kid expenses: $6k/yr (summer camps, food, etc, etc)
Kid education: $25k/yr (K-12, $50k/yr college)

Not tax deductible, so, another $31/.65 = ~ $47k -- even more at college, but less early on, so evens out

--------------------------------------------------------------

Total MINIMUM necessary income: ~$300k.

--------------------------------------------------------------

And that's without a Brazillian nanny, or a BMW.

I was $100k off.  Fine.  Same idea, $300k, 400k might as well be a mil to me today.

Anything wrong with the calculations?  That's really just to afford to raise a child, nothing much, nothing pretentious.  Want to be able to send them to summer camp, pay for piano lessons, sports teams, etc.  And live in relatively nice, unpretentious home, in a decent neighborhood, attending a decent school.

Sure, it's a lot less if the house doesn't cost a fortune, and public schools are decent, but I mentioned that at the beginning.  I like it here, regardless the costs.

While I'm not going to tell anyone to have or not to have kids, because its none of my business your calculations are not correct.

For starters a house worth 1.5million is not "modest" by any means even in large cities, especially if its (at least initially) only needed for two people - couple without kids.  From your posts it seems that you live in San Francisco, so I'm gonna assume thats where you do live.  According to Forbes, S.F. is the fourth most expensive place to live in the U.S.; the fifth is Northern N.J.

http://www.forbes.com/2005/09/15/cx_sc_0916homeslide_5.html?thisSpeed=90000

I happen to be from that area and from arguably the most expensive region in Northern NJ.  The house my parents bought there is a 1600-700 sq ft two story, pretty new, with full basement in addition, garage, and a large lot.  Price: 1.1-1.2 million.  This is fairly overpriced too, we live less than 10 minutes from NYC, if we lived 20 minutes away the price would fall to about 700-800k.

Here is my other qualm with your numbers, why is a house necessary?  Why can't you have a large apartment which will be half the price? 

Obviously, once the house price comes down so do the taxes, and maintenance costs.

Other thing I take issue with is the private education stuff.  I think you have a rather warped negative view of public education and a very forgiving view of private education.  I'm a little biased here, because I am a product of the NYC public school system (called by many one of the worst in the country), but let me assure that I got a world class education and ran circles around my prep-school peers in UG.  I think your assesment of public schools is a case of statistical discrimination - meaning you are comparing the average student in a public school and in a private school, rather than using individual characteristics to judge results.  Sure private schools are much more likely to pump out good successful students, but you assume this is due to the better education at these schools.  Mostly it is because children in public schools are predominantly from poor backgrounds with parents who have no interest in them attending college or finding "professional" jobs.  Education like most other things in life is what you make of it.

And, jsyk, my parents combined incomes barely cracks 250k, and when I was starting UG it was just scraping at the edges of 200k, and yet on this they managed to raise two children who never wanted for everything and pay for my uber expensive private UG in full.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: greengrl on April 23, 2006, 10:08:52 PM
hmmm...interesting thread. I have nothing to add other than I have no desire and will never have the desire to have any children. Parenting does not appeal to me in the least bit. Perhaps that makes me odd but I'm fairly certain I would be bad at it.

Norcaldude: woah...your numbers are crazy but I respect that you have the guts to admit that you want a certain level of living for your children. there isn't anything wrong with it. however, my mom raised me by herself on 35k/year and I went to thirteen years of private school followed by four more at an insanely expensive private college of which we are still paying for. i think that, in turn, makes me her own living breathing annuity  :D :D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 23, 2006, 11:38:44 PM


While I'm not going to tell anyone to have or not to have kids, because its none of my business your calculations are not correct.

For starters a house worth 1.5million is not "modest" by any means even in large cities, especially if its (at least initially) only needed for two people - couple without kids.  From your posts it seems that you live in San Francisco, so I'm gonna assume thats where you do live.  According to Forbes, S.F. is the fourth most expensive place to live in the U.S.; the fifth is Northern N.J.

http://www.forbes.com/2005/09/15/cx_sc_0916homeslide_5.html?thisSpeed=90000

I happen to be from that area and from arguably the most expensive region in Northern NJ.  The house my parents bought there is a 1600-700 sq ft two story, pretty new, with full basement in addition, garage, and a large lot.  Price: 1.1-1.2 million.  This is fairly overpriced too, we live less than 10 minutes from NYC, if we lived 20 minutes away the price would fall to about 700-800k.

There is nothing like that in a decent area within 20min of SF for $800k.  Maybe $1.2m within 20min of the city.

Here is my other qualm with your numbers, why is a house necessary?  Why can't you have a large apartment which will be half the price? 

Obviously, once the house price comes down so do the taxes, and maintenance costs.

Just is.  Can't raise kids without a house.  We're people, not vagabonds.

Other thing I take issue with is the private education stuff.  I think you have a rather warped negative view of public education and a very forgiving view of private education.  I'm a little biased here, because I am a product of the NYC public school system (called by many one of the worst in the country), but let me assure that I got a world class education and ran circles around my prep-school peers in UG.

And I'd assume you went to Brooklyn Tech, Bronx Science, or Stuyvesant (if I got the names right).  Assuming the kids didn't make the cutoff, they should be doomed for life?  I was talking to a girl who just missed them recently, sophomore in a neighborhood school in NYC.  Miserable isn't the right word to describe her, poor kid is thinking about getting a GED even though she has a 90, hopefully she doesn't after listening to my spiel.

I went to the one decent high school in SF (unlike NYC, there's only one here), and it's been getting progressively worse as the school board has become more and more progressive  ::).  I wouldn't count on it being decent in a decade at the rate things are going.

The middle and elementary schools in NYC are probably same as here, all sh!t with a few exceptions which you can't always be guaranteed to get your kid into other than by luck.  Again, if you don't get the kid in, should you doom said kid to a crappy school with aimless students?


And, jsyk, my parents combined incomes barely cracks 250k, and when I was starting UG it was just scraping at the edges of 200k, and yet on this they managed to raise two children who never wanted for everything and pay for my uber expensive private UG in full.

My parents income is a lot less, then again they wouldn't be able to pay for a private UG if they wanted to.  And they moved to the suburbs rather than paying said private school tuition for middle schools for siblings (all publics currently suck in SF).  They barely make the mortgage as it is, no way they could afford the house today, but better than throwing money into the air for private schools I guess.  From my calculations, I think you saw that extra expenses of $6k/yr for a kid are a tiny part of where most of the spending goes.

The absolute minimum in the suburbs would be the above calculations with a $1m house and no tuition payments.  But then again, I want to stay in the city, that was my initial point.  It's expensive, but I know what I'm shooting for.


greengrl -- Better make the coupon payments whenever you mature  ;)
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Steve.jd on April 23, 2006, 11:48:43 PM


While I'm not going to tell anyone to have or not to have kids, because its none of my business your calculations are not correct.

For starters a house worth 1.5million is not "modest" by any means even in large cities, especially if its (at least initially) only needed for two people - couple without kids.  From your posts it seems that you live in San Francisco, so I'm gonna assume thats where you do live.  According to Forbes, S.F. is the fourth most expensive place to live in the U.S.; the fifth is Northern N.J.

http://www.forbes.com/2005/09/15/cx_sc_0916homeslide_5.html?thisSpeed=90000

I happen to be from that area and from arguably the most expensive region in Northern NJ.  The house my parents bought there is a 1600-700 sq ft two story, pretty new, with full basement in addition, garage, and a large lot.  Price: 1.1-1.2 million.  This is fairly overpriced too, we live less than 10 minutes from NYC, if we lived 20 minutes away the price would fall to about 700-800k.

There is nothing like that in a decent area within 20min of SF for $800k.  Maybe $1.2m within 20min of the city.



So go 30 mins outside of the city, the price goes down exponentially.  Also why does it have to be SF, there are other "world class" cities - many of which have much lower price tags.

Quote

Here is my other qualm with your numbers, why is a house necessary?  Why can't you have a large apartment which will be half the price? 

Obviously, once the house price comes down so do the taxes, and maintenance costs.

Just is.  Can't raise kids without a house.  We're people, not vagabonds.


You can get a fantastic 3 bedroom 11-1200 sq ft apartment which is just as nice as a house minus the yard - this isn't exactly bad living.

Quote

Other thing I take issue with is the private education stuff.  I think you have a rather warped negative view of public education and a very forgiving view of private education.  I'm a little biased here, because I am a product of the NYC public school system (called by many one of the worst in the country), but let me assure that I got a world class education and ran circles around my prep-school peers in UG.

And I'd assume you went to Brooklyn Tech, Bronx Science, or Stuyvesant (if I got the names right).  Assuming the kids didn't make the cutoff, they should be doomed for life?  I was talking to a girl who just missed them recently, sophomore in a neighborhood school in NYC.  Miserable isn't the right word to describe her, poor kid is thinking about getting a GED even though she has a 90, hopefully she doesn't after listening to my spiel.


Yes I got into Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech, and went to Tech.  Good guess ;)  To be fair however, there are something like 9 of these magnet schools now, they have been adding more although the originally three are still the only general ones, the other magnets have specialities like business education, etc.

Also, although there are plenty of horrid zone schools in NYC like Lincoln or Xavier there are plenty of fantastic zone schools like Midwood or Murrow, and in NYC you can apply for any school you like, you don't have to go to your neighborhood school.

Quote

I went to the one decent high school in SF (unlike NYC, there's only one here), and it's been getting progressively worse as the school board has become more and more progressive  ::).  I wouldn't count on it being decent in a decade at the rate things are going.

The middle and elementary schools in NYC are probably same as here, all sh!t with a few exceptions which you can't always be guaranteed to get your kid into other than by luck.  Again, if you don't get the kid in, should you doom said kid to a crappy school with aimless students?


Again, there are undoubtedly crappy middle schools in NY but there are plenty of good ones.  FWIW I loved my middle school - teachers would take us to broadway, we had tons of high school level classes, one on one counseling, etc

Quote

And, jsyk, my parents combined incomes barely cracks 250k, and when I was starting UG it was just scraping at the edges of 200k, and yet on this they managed to raise two children who never wanted for everything and pay for my uber expensive private UG in full.

My parents income is a lot less, then again they wouldn't be able to pay for a private UG if they wanted to.  And they moved to the suburbs rather than paying said private school tuition for middle schools for siblings (all publics currently suck in SF).  They barely make the mortgage as it is, no way they could afford the house today, but better than throwing money into the air for private schools I guess.  From my calculations, I think you saw that extra expenses of $6k/yr for a kid are a tiny part of where most of the spending goes.


The absolute minimum would be the above calculations with a $1m house and no tuition payments.  But then again, I want to stay in the city.  It's expensive, but I know what I'm shooting for.



Out of curiousity how do you plan on paying for a 1m house?  Even with biglaw, at 145k + bonus, and that rate is not in every firm, lets say 180k, its insane to try to pay for a 1m house with this salary - in fact you couldn't get such a mortgage even if you wanted to.  I suppose you could save up but it would take a lifetime.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 24, 2006, 12:00:33 AM
So go 30 mins outside of the city, the price goes down exponentially.  Also why does it have to be SF, there are other "world class" cities - many of which have much lower price tags.

Eh.  Calculations made for fun.  I like it here.  Would be nice if it weren't so damn expensive.

Again, there are undoubtedly crappy middle schools in NY but there are plenty of good ones.  FWIW I loved my middle school - teachers would take us to broadway, we had tons of high school level classes, one on one counseling, etc

Yeah, there are no good ones in SF anymore :(

Out of curiousity how do you plan on paying for a 1m house?  Even with biglaw, at 145k + bonus, and that rate is not in every firm, lets say 180k, its insane to try to pay for a 1m house with this salary - in fact you couldn't get such a mortgage even if you wanted to.  I suppose you could save up but it would take a lifetime.

This is a good question.  First off, nobody is expecting to remain mediocre for a lifetime, and I'd assume three years into biglaw to pulling in at least $200k, which  should be enough to start saving.  Thereafter, you try to start your own firm get there, or try to start a company, or join a smaller company and hope for it to go public -- that's why I said it's highly unlikely I'll ever get to the point I need to get to, but that's what I'm shooting for.

I'm thinking 1 yr off, 3 yrs law school, 3yrs in biglaw, 2-3 yrs doing my own thing, and then either back to biglaw or hopefully keep doing my own thing if that works out.

Biglaw is not gonna get me there on it's own, I agree.

And finally, even if all else fails, you immediately seem to consider a single income household.  Throw in two $150-200k incomes and you got the necessary income to get by.

If I throw in the towel and take the $1m house, that can easily be achieved on a biglaw salary though: you're making around $200k as a fourth year associate, and three years of savings should yield the necessary $200k downpayment to get a decent 4x income loan, and that's in a single-income household, so it's not THAT bad if you're willing to move...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: upNdown on April 24, 2006, 10:06:56 AM
Norcal, I try not to make judgements on people (usually unsuccessfuuly) and I try not to verbalize judgements (I'm usually successful with this one) but you've spent so much time stating and defending your position that I think you're fair game.  And this has nothing to do with kids. 

Your narrow view of what is an acceptable life is sad.  I hope and expect you'll outgrow this. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jvan2619 on April 24, 2006, 10:12:58 AM
Norcal, I try not to make judgements on people (usually unsuccessfuuly) and I try not to verbalize judgements (I'm usually successful with this one) but you've spent so much time stating and defending your position that I think you're fair game.  And this has nothing to do with kids. 

Your narrow view of what is an acceptable life is sad.  I hope and expect you'll outgrow this. 

 ;D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 24, 2006, 10:19:24 AM
Norcal, I try not to make judgements on people (usually unsuccessfuuly) and I try not to verbalize judgements (I'm usually successful with this one) but you've spent so much time stating and defending your position that I think you're fair game.  And this has nothing to do with kids. 

Your narrow view of what is an acceptable life is sad.  I hope and expect you'll outgrow this. 

 ;D  Agreed.  I can't even seem to get the fellow to read my posts, even if I limit them to to three lines.  He just blindly plows ahead with his schtick.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 24, 2006, 02:32:45 PM
Norcal, I try not to make judgements on people (usually unsuccessfuuly) and I try not to verbalize judgements (I'm usually successful with this one) but you've spent so much time stating and defending your position that I think you're fair game.  And this has nothing to do with kids. 

Your narrow view of what is an acceptable life is sad.  I hope and expect you'll outgrow this. 

 ;D  Agreed.  I can't even seem to get the fellow to read my posts, even if I limit them to to three lines.  He just blindly plows ahead with his schtick.

I responded to your post, you didn't care for my reply.  You're going to be a lawyer, you aren't always going to get a yes/no answer...

If I "grow out" of it, it simply means I'll have failed to achieve my goals, otherwise I won't need to "grow out" of it.  Whether or not it's sad is a judgement call.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 24, 2006, 02:42:18 PM
Norcal, I try not to make judgements on people (usually unsuccessfuuly) and I try not to verbalize judgements (I'm usually successful with this one) but you've spent so much time stating and defending your position that I think you're fair game.  And this has nothing to do with kids. 

Your narrow view of what is an acceptable life is sad.  I hope and expect you'll outgrow this. 

 ;D  Agreed.  I can't even seem to get the fellow to read my posts, even if I limit them to to three lines.  He just blindly plows ahead with his schtick.

I responded to your post, you didn't care for my reply.  You're going to be a lawyer, you aren't always going to get a yes/no answer...

If I "grow out" of it, it simply means I'll have failed to achieve my goals, otherwise I won't need to "grow out" of it.  Whether or not it's sad is a judgement call.

Well, they weren't close-ended questions and no, they weren't answered at all.  Here they are again, if you want to give it a try:

1)  Your happiness would not be based on the child's?
2)  What if that's [a better lifestyle than you] not importnt to him / her?

I'll clarify (might help).

On the first, I'm asking whether or not you will happy (yourself) or happy that the child is happy--if the child is happy.  In addition, if the child is UNHAPPY because of the choices you make for him or her, can you BE happy?  So, if the kid wants to play baseball and take piano lessons rather than taking AP Calc and studying with a tutor for his boards...

On the second,  if your child wanted to become an academic, a schoolteacher, a policeman, a janitor, a nanny, a social worker, etc., could you be happy with that.  If the child weren't happy with your choice of study for him or her, how can YOU be happy?

In either case, neither question is about living in the suburbs or not, OK?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 24, 2006, 03:19:29 PM

On the first, I'm asking whether or not you will happy (yourself) or happy that the child is happy--if the child is happy.  In addition, if the child is UNHAPPY because of the choices you make for him or her, can you BE happy?  So, if the kid wants to play baseball and take piano lessons rather than taking AP Calc and studying with a tutor for his boards...

On the second,  if your child wanted to become an academic, a schoolteacher, a policeman, a janitor, a nanny, a social worker, etc., could you be happy with that.  If the child weren't happy with your choice of study for him or her, how can YOU be happy?

Academics before 18 aren't a choice.  So that expense doesn't chance.  Example: President Monkey Brains.  I'm sure he wasn't happy with his parents making choices for him in his youth, but I'm just as sure he's happy they forced academics on him today.  There's plenty of time to do well and have some activities too.

As to the second, I'd be ecstatic with an academic, means the kid is smarter than me...

To the rest of the crap, I don't think I'd be that "happy", I'd probably feel like a failure as a parent.  Not like I'd disown the child, but no, I wouldn't be happy.

One (small) part of the allure of living in the city is the high minimum standards required to stay here.  If the kid can be raised to enjoy what the city has to offer, those other careers won't even cross the child's mind.

What better motivation can there be than pointing at the worker in McDs and saying: that's where you'll be without Calc (no offense to the people working there out of necessity) ;D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 24, 2006, 05:38:58 PM

To the rest of the crap, I don't think I'd be that "happy", I'd probably feel like a failure as a parent.  Not like I'd disown the child, but no, I wouldn't be happy.


That's a major difference b/t you and me--likely b/t you and others you'll meet in life.  My parents just wanted me to be happy.  I will likely just want my child to be happy.  If he/she is just a notch above destitution but happy, I'll be very satified with the job I've done.

My job as a parent IS (and you'd likely agree) to instill a set of core values--compassion, spirituality, education, love.  The most important of those core values to me are a) compassion for my fellow man and b) a sense of self.  Your core values appear to be financial success and education.

That's all well and good, but at the end of the day if I raised a child that I sent to boarding school, shipped off to a high-end ug, pushed to attend a professional school...and she hated me for it, ended up unhappy in life because of it--I'd feel like a failure.  EVEN if she was making 500K a year.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 24, 2006, 05:58:38 PM
That's all well and good, but at the end of the day if I raised a child that I sent to boarding school, shipped off to a high-end ug, pushed to attend a professional school...and she hated me for it, ended up unhappy in life because of it--I'd feel like a failure.  EVEN if she was making 500K a year.

Well nobody is talking about doing that, you don't outsource parenting to a boarding school... nor do you ship off the kid to a highest end ug because that's what YOU want, in fact, any UG in the USN top 40 ranked universities or USN top 5 LAC is probably ok, that's part of providing choices.

I would never push for attending professional school, the smartest among us don't need it for any kind of success, so I don't see why I would need to "push" ex ante.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 24, 2006, 06:07:44 PM
That's all well and good, but at the end of the day if I raised a child that I sent to boarding school, shipped off to a high-end ug, pushed to attend a professional school...and she hated me for it, ended up unhappy in life because of it--I'd feel like a failure.  EVEN if she was making 500K a year.

Well nobody is talking about doing that, you don't outsource parenting to a boarding school... nor do you ship off the kid to a highest end ug because that's what YOU want, in fact, any UG in the USN top 40 ranked universities or USN top 5 LAC is probably ok, that's part of providing choices.

I would never push for attending professional school, the smartest among us don't need it for any kind of success, so I don't see why I would need to "push" ex ante.

You can backpedal all you want, Norcal, but you clearly intend to raise a child with extraordinarily high expectations, creating a high-stress, black-n-white atmosphere.  Your posts in this thread indicate a felt need to raise little Trumps and Gates.  Why not settle for a happy, well-balanced child who knows what she wants in life?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 24, 2006, 06:13:40 PM
You can backpeddle all you want, Norcal, but you clearly intend to raise a child with extraordinarily high expectations, creating a high-stress, black-n-white atmosphere.  Your posts in this thread indicate a felt need to raise little Trumps and Gates.  Why not settle for a happy, well-balanced child who know she wants in life?

There's nothing more stressful than trying to make ends meet.

One part of a parent's role is to make sure that never happens.  One way is through providing an education with the highest standards through at least high school, to guarantee a respectable UG degree; I call it necessity, you call it stress.  A different route is by being a Hilton and leaving $15m+.  I'm not counting on the latter.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 24, 2006, 06:15:41 PM
Ah, @#!* it.  It's just not worth my time.  I wasted 20 minutes of my life on you today. *&^%.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 24, 2006, 06:19:11 PM
Ah, @#!* it.  It's just not worth my time.  I wasted 20 minutes of my life on you today. sh*t.

The joys of sitting in class, doing nothing.  Ahhh... and for what?  To raise my gpa, to get into law school.  lol.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 24, 2006, 06:21:18 PM
Ah, @#!* it.  It's just not worth my time.  I wasted 20 minutes of my life on you today. sh*t.

The joys of sitting in class, doing nothing.  Ahhh... and for what?  To raise my gpa, to get into law school.  lol.

Huh?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jacy85 on April 24, 2006, 06:28:49 PM
There's nothing more stressful than trying to make ends meet.

And here's where you show how immature and unexperienced in life you are.  It doesn't matter how much money you make.  If you live *at* your means, you'll forever be trying to make ends meet.  Money is always stressful, unless you're Bill Gates.  There are always things to worry about.

And out of all the things in life that could cause stress (having assh*le parents with disgusting values and goals for their children come to mind...dunno why  ::)), I'll take money stress over almost all of them.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 24, 2006, 06:29:53 PM
There's nothing more stressful than trying to make ends meet.

And here's where you show how immature and unexperienced in life you are.  It doesn't matter how much money you make.  If you live *at* your means, you'll forever be trying to make ends meet.  Money is always stressful, unless you're Bill Gates.  There are always things to worry about.

And out of all the things in life that could cause stress (having assh*le parents with disgusting values and goals for their children come to mind...dunno why  ::)), I'll take money stress over almost all of them.

TITCR.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 24, 2006, 08:44:27 PM
And here's where you show how immature and unexperienced in life you are.  It doesn't matter how much money you make.  If you live *at* your means, you'll forever be trying to make ends meet.  Money is always stressful, unless you're Bill Gates.  There are always things to worry about.

And out of all the things in life that could cause stress (having assh*le parents with disgusting values and goals for their children come to mind...dunno why  ::)), I'll take money stress over almost all of them.

Oh really?  Well, a person I know from HS went to a USN T6 private, graduated already.  Her parents were/are lower middle class, and are still paying off her loans.  Why?  Because she took one of those positions described by the likewise, which isn't enough to make ends meet.  Basically pays for gas for her to get to work, and food and clothes.  Her parents are sucking it up, but have made comments alluding to their disgust with what they've paid for. 

Hell, $120k, and for what?  Loans, for what?  For a job that could have been done out of any crappy state university which she could have driven to from home?  I'd be pissed too, esp. in their situation.  But she still probably has the tools to get by (I think a degree from that school always work, even in a major that's worthless from elsewhere), even if she refuses to use them as a 20-something waxing philosophic about doing good deeds.  (You can hire people to more man-hours of good deeds if you use such a degree wisely, if that's your goal, which is a righteous one.)

What's the point of this?  If I could provide for the kid, I wouldn't be bitter, just annoyed at such a career choice.  Her parents are bitter at the loans they're sitting on, rightfully so.  Just another thing to think about when you start with the money isn't important issue, you're so immature issue. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I leave you with a parting thought: you people are the reason that America is becoming less and less competitive in the global economy.  Because too many people put baseball over education, and have soft targets for "happiness", rather than hard targets for success.  Take it at what it's worth.  I hope this country turns that around soon.  Because at this rate, we're screwed if we keep turning out aimless liberal arts majors (lawyers and some professionals excluded), while India and China produce 450k engineers every year.  Not saying my attitude of not having children is any better, but it's much less prevalent than your attitude which has already led to serious problems in Europe.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Steve.jd on April 24, 2006, 08:49:27 PM

I leave you with a parting thought: you people are the reason that America is becoming less and less competitive in the global economy.  Because too many people put baseball over education, and have soft targets for "happiness", rather than hard targets for success.  Take it at what it's worth.  I hope this country turns that around soon.  Because at this rate, we're screwed if we keep turning out aimless liberal arts majors (lawyers and some professionals excluded), while India and China produce 450k engineers every year.  Not saying my attitude of not having children is any better, but it's much less prevalent than your attitude which has already led to serious problems in Europe.

While I disagree with virtually everything you've said about raising kids, you bring up a good point.  I read once, that Japan produces three engineers for every one of your lawyers, and we produce 4 lawyers for every engineer.  Therefore Japan (with a population 1/6 of the U.S. produces 12 times as many engineers as we do).  And whats more the engineers they produce are top notch, and can shred us apart.  Every grad level class I've had was me, maybe one or two other white guys, and 15 to 20 Indians/Chinese.  And let me tell you the foreigners are so damn smart its frightening.  The U.S. doesn't even make it into the top 10 in math proficiency among world states.  I think we are behind Ethiopia.  Ethiopia for god's sake.  The most powerful nation of all time, and our military machine is being powered mostly by foreign brain power.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 24, 2006, 08:56:46 PM
The U.S. doesn't even make it into the top 10 in math proficiency among world states.  I think we are behind Ethiopia.  Ethiopia for god's sake.  The most powerful nation of all time, and our military machine is being powered mostly by foreign brain power.

Why?  Because likewise thinks his kids should be playing baseball if they don't want to take AP Calc.  And many many people think like him.  It's a serious problem.  Calc should be required for graduation from HS, like it is in most successful developed countries (Japan, Finland, etc).  Amongst other things.  In Finland they need to take 10+ exams in different subjects to graduate.  I looked at Cali's HS exit exam, it's great.  As an 8th grade exit exam into high school.  Education is a problem that starts at home.  But whatever, non-assh*le parents are too busy concerned that their teenagers have self-esteem problems in math class, or elsewhere...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 24, 2006, 08:59:39 PM
Japan has about 125, which is far more than 1/6 of the US population. The reason why Japan has so many more engineers is because 10% of the country's economy goes into construction/public works. Their education at the college level is also relatively reknowned as being abysmal. An American college degree is like gold over there, so even though our high schools are sub-par, I think it evens out after college. We are horrible at math though- I know someone who is a 3rd grader over here and came over after completing 1st grade in Japan and just laughs at how basic the math is.

And FYI Norcaldude, every single Japanese high school student has to join a club/sport in school which they go to every single day for 3-4 hours and possibly longer on weekends.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Steve.jd on April 24, 2006, 09:01:59 PM
The U.S. doesn't even make it into the top 10 in math proficiency among world states.  I think we are behind Ethiopia.  Ethiopia for god's sake.  The most powerful nation of all time, and our military machine is being powered mostly by foreign brain power.

Why?  Because likewise thinks his kids should be playing baseball if they don't want to take AP Calc.  And many many people think like him.  It's a serious problem.  Calc should be required for graduation from HS, like it is in most successful developed countries (Japan, Finland, etc).

Not necessarily - if you go back and read what I said, aside from there being a shortage of engineers, we need BETTER engineers.  If a kid wants to do liberal arts type stuff and doesn't not have the desire to do Calc/engineering then forcing him/her into this might add another engineer, but certainly not a motivated/capable one.  A better solution is to encourage children to go into engineering by making it fun/enjoyable/etc.

BTW, jsyk Calc is not required for graduation in most private schools either.  It was however, required in my public school ;)

Japan has about 125, which is far more than 1/6 of the US population. The reason why Japan has so many more engineers is because 10% of the country's economy goes into construction/public works. Their education at the college level is also relatively reknowned as being abysmal. An American college degree is like gold over there, so even though our high schools are sub-par, I think it evens out after college. We are horrible at math though- I know someone who is a 3rd grader over here and came over after completing 1st grade in Japan and just laughs at how basic the math is.

And FYI Norcaldude, every single Japanese high school student has to join a club/sport in school which they go to every single day for 3-4 hours and possibly longer on weekends.

I thought it was 60, I stand corrected, still they produce far more engineers.  Our college education is the best by far, but you don't realize how many foreigners come here for college and then leave.  Its the brain drain.  Thirty years ago, all the jobs were in the states so they all stayed.  Now with the internet and telecom technologies they can go back to India, stay with their families, and telecommute.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 24, 2006, 09:04:59 PM
I think that has more to do with the fact that only 65,000 or so H-1B visas can be given out each year. Even if talented engineers want to stay, it's just not possible.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Steve.jd on April 24, 2006, 09:07:48 PM
I think that has more to do with the fact that only 65,000 or so H-1B visas can be given out each year. Even if talented engineers want to stay, it's just not possible.

Is that a residency visa?  I think there is no limit on J-1 work visas, which would do just fine.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 24, 2006, 09:13:11 PM
If everybody were required to take Calc, we'd have a much bigger pool of people to choose from who could feasibly become engineers, "math is too hard" in 6th grade sorta guarantees you'll never be an engineer.  If calc was required for graduation, we'd guarantee a minimum level of education prior to that.

Of course activities are necessary, nm cruella.

------------------------------------

And yes, we need more and better engineers.  Bad comparison with the foreigners who are HERE though, what you see is the absolute best 1-2% of the 450k that are coming out each year, of course they are going to run circles around most here, by definition, assuming similar intelligence amongst the total of all engineers here and there.  I don't think their top 2% are better than the top 2% of American trained engineers, they just have much greater numbers, for reasons discussed earlier.

There is no shortage of work visas for people who want them in the tech sector, if you can't get an H1-B, you can some other visa.  Steve's point seems to be more accurate.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 24, 2006, 09:15:05 PM
No, that's the non-immigrant specialist visa, but it tends to be the one that is most popular. J-1 is a student visa, so I don't know how that would be helpful for people wanting to stay on after they finish school. It's a lot harder these days to get visas than it was during the dot-com boom. A lot of the Indian workers who came over with engineering/CS degrees had to come back in 2001/2002 because they lost their jobs.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Steve.jd on April 24, 2006, 09:20:04 PM
No, that's the non-immigrant specialist visa, but it tends to be the one that is most popular. J-1 is a student visa, so I don't know how that would be helpful for people wanting to stay on after they finish school. It's a lot harder these days to get visas than it was during the dot-com boom. A lot of the Indian workers who came over with engineering/CS degrees had to come back in 2001/2002 because they lost their jobs.

Maybe K-1 is the work visa then?  I can't recall exactly what its called, but there is a standard work visa with no limits.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jacy85 on April 25, 2006, 04:41:20 AM


I leave you with a parting thought: you people are the reason that America is becoming less and less competitive in the global economy.  Because too many people put baseball over education, and have soft targets for "happiness", rather than hard targets for success.  Take it at what it's worth.  I hope this country turns that around soon.  Because at this rate, we're screwed if we keep turning out aimless liberal arts majors (lawyers and some professionals excluded), while India and China produce 450k engineers every year.  Not saying my attitude of not having children is any better, but it's much less prevalent than your attitude which has already led to serious problems in Europe.

This is my last comment on this thread.  Do some research, and find out what Japan's really like.  Sure, they pump out engineers.  Sure, they makes lots of money.  Sure, they have an emphasis on eduction and success.

But do you have any idea what their suicide rate is?  Probably not, because it's taboo to talk about it there.  But talk to someone who's lived there, and they'll likely agree.  The society is not the face they put on it.  The price for all the "success" is often misery, and the cost to many children who can't live up is often very steep.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 25, 2006, 06:05:45 AM

...Because she took one of those positions described by the likewise, which isn't enough to make ends meet. Basically pays for gas for her to get to work, and food and clothes.  Her parents are sucking it up, but have made comments alluding to their disgust with what they've paid for. 

Hell, $120k, and for what?  Loans, for what?  For a job that could have been done out of any crappy state university which she could have driven to from home?  I'd be pissed too, esp. in their situation.  But she still probably has the tools to get by (I think a degree from that school always work, even in a major that's worthless from elsewhere), even if she refuses to use them as a 20-something waxing philosophic about doing good deeds. (You can hire people to more man-hours of good deeds if you use such a degree wisely, if that's your goal, which is a righteous one.)

What's the point of this?  If I could provide for the kid, I wouldn't be bitter, just annoyed at such a career choice.  Her parents are bitter at the loans they're sitting on, rightfully so. Just another thing to think about when you start with the money isn't important issue, you're so immature issue. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I leave you with a parting thought: you people are the reason that America is becoming less and less competitive in the global economy.  Because too many people put baseball over education, and have soft targets for "happiness", rather than hard targets for success.  Take it at what it's worth.  I hope this country turns that around soon.  Because at this rate, we're screwed if we keep turning out aimless liberal arts majors (lawyers and some professionals excluded), while India and China produce 450k engineers every year.  Not saying my attitude of not having children is any better, but it's much less prevalent than your attitude which has already led to serious problems in Europe.

_____________________________ _____________________________ ____________

Why?  Because likewise thinks his kids should be playing baseball if they don't want to take AP Calc.  And many many people think like him.  It's a serious problem. Calc should be required for graduation from HS, like it is in most successful developed countries (Japan, Finland, etc).  Amongst other things.  In Finland they need to take 10+ exams in different subjects to graduate.  I looked at Cali's HS exit exam, it's great.  As an 8th grade exit exam into high school.  Education is a problem that starts at home.  But whatever, non-assh*le parents are too busy concerned that their teenagers have self-esteem problems in math class, or elsewhere...

There are a few issues here I'd like to address. 

First, I (and those that "think" as I do) value education at least as much as you if not more.  My father had masters in philosophy, theology, and social work.  My mother has masters in education and Spanish.  As a child, my father taught me latin, read poetry with my sister and me, took us to museums, and encouraged us to read whatever sparked our interests.  We went on vacations (that were carefully saved for) to Ireland, Israel, Mexico, Canada, and all around the states.  We filled each day with discussions of world issues and literature.

THIS is a home centered around education--a liberal arts education.  Graduates in the liberal arts have the opportunity to have a more expansive worldview, the ability to think crtically and synthesize information, better written and verbal communication skills, a greater knowledge and acceptance / tolerance of other cultures, and appreciation for the arts.

You write that the US doesn't turn out enough engineers (that Calc should be be required of all HS graduates).  This, of course, is a bit nutty.  I've taught high school and come from four generations of teachers.  First, Calc is just not a necessary tool for the vast majority of the public--neither is trig for that matter.  Wouldn't you rather each child focus on his or her ability to think crtically and write well?  I would.  And NorCal, I work in a software engineering firm.  We need more of these narrow-minded, simple folk in this world like I need a nail in my head.

So, if the woman you describe isn't making sufficient ducats, her parents should likely require that she adjust her standard of living and assist with reducing her school debt. Why be bitter with the kid; she should help pay the debt off, right?  And, besides, the parents bought that, right?  If they agreed to fund her education, they should let her decide what she'd like to do with it.  No?  Then they likely should have required that she pay for it herself.

That's a lot to swallow, right?  Sure it is.  You describe me as having a soft target for happiness.  Of course I do.  I believe happiness is intangible.

See, we need engineers, CEOs, and economists.  We need doctors and attorneys.  But this thread is about having children, right? 

The net of it is this:  a child is best raised in a loving environment with values that promote emotional, spiritual, and intellectual growth.  The notion that a parent or a society would place "hard targets" on each of those elements is dangerous.  A child should be guided to grow into the person that she WANTS to be, the she will be HAPPIEST being. 

Your suggested requirements and general outlook regarding children do not allow for such unfettered growth. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: redemption on April 25, 2006, 06:19:56 AM
You're one of my favorites, Likewise. Everything that you say makes sense and is decent.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 25, 2006, 06:22:52 AM
You're one of my favorites, Likewise. Everything that you say makes sense and is decent.

Thanks kindly.   ;)
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 25, 2006, 10:00:07 AM
Brush up on what humanists considered liberal arts.  Somewhere in there was math and science, architecture, etc.  The Renaissance man was supposed to do ALL of this if necessary.

Saying Calculus is unnecessary because it came after the Renaissance is ludicrous.  Maybe we shouldn't study texts from Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, that all also came after the Renaissance...

As for trig, therein lies your problem.  At some point, liberal arts dropped math and physics.  I'm not claiming that a child needs to be forced into engineering, but Nietzche is about as "useful" to an engineer as trig is to most lawyers.  And that's where your argument collapses. 

Material covered in AP Calc or AP Physics were just as much a part of a liberal arts education as anything else, and used to be, until people like you, or your parents, deemed it was "unnecessary".  I don't remember too many people enjoying analytic geometry in high school, but they took the courses...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 25, 2006, 10:20:43 AM
Brush up on what humanists considered liberal arts.  Somewhere in there was math and science, architecture, etc.  The Renaissance man was supposed to do ALL of this if necessary.

Saying Calculus is unnecessary because it came after the Renaissance is ludicrous.  Maybe we shouldn't study texts from Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, that all also came after the Renaissance...

As for trig, therein lies your problem.  At some point, liberal arts dropped math and physics.  I'm not claiming that a child needs to be forced into engineering, but Nietzche is about as "useful" to an engineer as trig is to most lawyers.  And that's where your argument collapses. 

Material covered in AP Calc or AP Physics were just as much a part of a liberal arts education as anything else, and used to be, until people like you, or your parents, deemed it was "unnecessary".  I don't remember too many people enjoying analytic geometry in high school, but they took the courses...

Please don't tell me what to brush up on, buddy.  We're producing students these days who cannot think because we're too focused on "hard, testable results." 

You argue that students be held to hard, testable reults.  Limits like these establish arbitrary milestones.  These milestones DO NOT advance education.

You're correct that the liberal arts should involve the sciences, mathematics, and the humanities.  But, for each subject, to what level?  That should be a decision that is student-based, not state-based.

You argue that the state decide that students be required to take higher level math and sciences in an effort to turn out more engineers.  I agrue that the state widen the focus, avoid requiring students to test to standards in high math and science, and drive toward producing students that can read, write, think, and speak well.

Do you actually think a social worker needs Calc?  Of course not. 

And, as I reminded you at the end of my last post:

"The net of it is this:  a child is best raised in a loving environment with values that promote emotional, spiritual, and intellectual growth.  The notion that a parent or a society would place "hard targets" on each of those elements is dangerous.  A child should be guided to grow into the person that she WANTS to be, the she will be HAPPIEST being.

Your suggested requirements and general outlook regarding children do not allow for such unfettered growth."

Do you disagree?

Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 25, 2006, 10:28:07 AM
I think the problem with the US is that globally we have trouble competing because most other countries do have some nationwide standards that dictate what level you should be at when you graduate from high school. It's a problem when a person moves from one state to another and is a year or two ahead or behind because what's grade level varies so much from state to state. Then when kids get to the college level, some of them come in with one or two years of credit while others have to take extra remedial classes. I'm not saying that all college prep students need to have taken calculus, but really what's the point of college algebra but to review what you should have learned in high school? Why are we teaching freshman composition? These are things that students should know before college.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 25, 2006, 10:37:43 AM
I think the problem with the US is that globally we have trouble competing because most other countries do have some nationwide standards that dictate what level you should be at when you graduate from high school. It's a problem when a person moves from one state to another and is a year or two ahead or behind because what's grade level varies so much from state to state. Then when kids get to the college level, some of them come in with one or two years of credit while others have to take extra remedial classes. I'm not saying that all college prep students need to have taken calculus, but really what's the point of college algebra but to review what you should have learned in high school? Why are we teaching freshman composition? These are things that students should know before college.

Does our educational system have the same goals as those w/in those countries?  Can one attend and graduate secondary school in those countries with an IQ of 75?  Do those contries INCLUDE students at all levels in the same classroom?

Establishing standards like you suggest would require a mass restructuring...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 25, 2006, 10:50:16 AM
I know it would, but I just think that our current system fails miserably. Yes, other countries do split up by levels once students get to roughly 10th grade, but at least there are decent options for students who aren't college bound. I worked in Japan for two years and while there are entrance exams to high schools, in general the vast majority will pass the entrance exam and get into their school of choice. Even at the more competitive public schools <20% fail to make it in. If you live in a rural area and are not financially able to make it to college prep schools, the teachers at those schools will help you to prepare to take the entrance exam. Universities are now establishing separate admissions standards for students who have gone to technical high schools and wish to pursue careers in engineering or other technical fields, so even if you do end up in a technical high school and then decide to go to college, it's now possible.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 25, 2006, 12:36:43 PM
Please don't tell me what to brush up on, buddy.  We're producing students these days who cannot think because we're too focused on "hard, testable results." 

You argue that students be held to hard, testable reults.  Limits like these establish arbitrary milestones.  These milestones DO NOT advance education.

You're correct that the liberal arts should involve the sciences, mathematics, and the humanities.  But, for each subject, to what level?  That should be a decision that is student-based, not state-based.

You argue that the state decide that students be required to take higher level math and sciences in an effort to turn out more engineers.  I agrue that the state widen the focus, avoid requiring students to test to standards in high math and science, and drive toward producing students that can read, write, think, and speak well.

Do you actually think a social worker needs Calc?  Of course not. 

And, as I reminded you at the end of my last post:

"The net of it is this:  a child is best raised in a loving environment with values that promote emotional, spiritual, and intellectual growth.  The notion that a parent or a society would place "hard targets" on each of those elements is dangerous.  A child should be guided to grow into the person that she WANTS to be, the she will be HAPPIEST being.

Your suggested requirements and general outlook regarding children do not allow for such unfettered growth."

Do you disagree?



lol.  you are funny.

we don't need hard testable results, we need fuzzy, happy students, lol.  AP tests are a decent, albeit not great due to multiple choice questions, to test for results.  why?  because any student who's taken an AP class and learned the material should be able to take the written portion of an AP test in that subject.

i went to a liberal arts high school.  it gave me a background to choose whatever I wanted in college.  that is all that should be required of high school students.  it includes ANY field one might want to pursue.  that is the definition of a well-rounded education. 

we have too few engineers precisely because students who graduate from high schools don't know any math and science, and would thus never choose engineering.  because they couldn't multiply by 2nd grade.  because math got hard in 6th grade.  because basic algebraic concepts weren't required to graduate middle school, etc.  if you can't read a novel, you shouldn't be in high school.  same goes for math.  Look in the mirror, you're the one with the narrow-minded educational goals, not me.

you say to should preclude math and science early in high school, hell with your comment about trig, why not go all the way to geometry, after all, a social worker doesn't need that either.  let's get rid of anything past counting percentages...

grrr, hopeless.  In this case though, I'm right and you're wrong, blindly shutting out math and science for your child because a 13yr old "doesn't like" algebra is not parenting.  Unlike the previous issue about having children, which is an opinion.

let's raise a country full of social workers who would all love to have government jobs and be happy.  oh crap, we have that, it's called France.  and they're definitely headed in the right direction.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 25, 2006, 12:53:33 PM
Yeah, I'm done.  You're just an a-hole who selectively reads what I write, makes inane logical leaps, and then claims he's right.  Go sit on a stick, mofo.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 25, 2006, 01:25:31 PM
Were usually outperformed by or outperformed others? Usually Japanese people who come abroad to get graduate degrees are funded by their employers. Very few will go on to get graduate degrees otherwise because the process to get a job is incredibly different than it is here and it's sort of hard to leave and then come back after a few years.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jvan2619 on April 26, 2006, 07:47:11 AM
I leave you with a parting thought: you people are the reason that America is becoming less and less competitive in the global economy.  Because too many people put baseball over education, and have soft targets for "happiness", rather than hard targets for success.  Take it at what it's worth.  I hope this country turns that around soon.  Because at this rate, we're screwed if we keep turning out aimless liberal arts majors (lawyers and some professionals excluded), while India and China produce 450k engineers every year.  Not saying my attitude of not having children is any better, but it's much less prevalent than your attitude which has already led to serious problems in Europe.

You are truly an idiot.  Move to Japan. 

Any idea what engineers make????  I can tell you since I am one - NOTHING.  If money and material things (or what you call "the basics") are so important to you, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you will not personally be pushing your children towards engineering.  I have also never been required since college to use anything from calculus other than the basics of integrals.  I'll also add that most of the engineers I know can not move ahead in their profession because they have ZERO personal and communication skills...in case you don't know, those are crucial.

Likewise - love your comments :)
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Steve.jd on April 26, 2006, 08:36:11 AM

Any idea what engineers make????  I can tell you since I am one - NOTHING.  If money and material things (or what you call "the basics") are so important to you, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you will not personally be pushing your children towards engineering.  I have also never been required since college to use anything from calculus other than the basics of integrals.  I'll also add that most of the engineers I know can not move ahead in their profession because they have ZERO personal and communication skills...in case you don't know, those are crucial.


This is a gross generalization, and not a very accurate one.  As far as Bachelors degress go, engineering has the highest ROI by far.  If converted to hourly pay, engineers many times make more than bankers and lawyers.

Sure some engineers never break 100k, but by the same token some lawyers don't break 100k either.  Saying engineers make "nothing" - which isn't true, is a bad generalization at best.  I knew people in college who were billing out at 600-700/hr without a degree. Hell I was making 110/hr at various points.  Do all engineers make this?  Of course not, but do all lawyers make 145k+ bonus?  Probably not....

While I agree with you about calculus, you can make the same case about Physics: E&M or a myriad of other subjects.  Engineering is not a mechanical task - you are supposed to be creative and solve problems in new innovative ways.  Calculus teaches you more than anything how to think critically about problems, and find elegant solutions, as well as giving you a rigorous analytical workout.  It isn't meant to be a set of formulas or simple methods you can solve problems.  If a problem can be solved mechanically through calculus, guess what, someone has or will write a program to do it automatically.  I'm not saying everyone should take calculus, but FWIW Phi Beta Kappa a tradionally liberal artsy honor society requires Calculus for entrance in nearly all chapters.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: upNdown on April 26, 2006, 09:52:48 PM
You're one of my favorites, Likewise. Everything that you say makes sense and is decent.

Yeah, I hate to join in on a suckfest, but I agree.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 26, 2006, 10:52:08 PM
I leave you with a parting thought: you people are the reason that America is becoming less and less competitive in the global economy.  Because too many people put baseball over education, and have soft targets for "happiness", rather than hard targets for success.  Take it at what it's worth.  I hope this country turns that around soon.  Because at this rate, we're screwed if we keep turning out aimless liberal arts majors (lawyers and some professionals excluded), while India and China produce 450k engineers every year.  Not saying my attitude of not having children is any better, but it's much less prevalent than your attitude which has already led to serious problems in Europe.

You are truly an idiot.  Move to Japan. 

Any idea what engineers make????  I can tell you since I am one - NOTHING.  If money and material things (or what you call "the basics") are so important to you, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you will not personally be pushing your children towards engineering.  I have also never been required since college to use anything from calculus other than the basics of integrals.  I'll also add that most of the engineers I know can not move ahead in their profession because they have ZERO personal and communication skills...in case you don't know, those are crucial.

Likewise - love your comments :)

on average?  looking around, i'd say around 80% more than liberal arts majors, outside a few core disciplines like math and such (which are, believe it or not, liberal arts! the irony).  and 30% or so more than business majors.

i'm not saying children should be pushed into sci-tech or math.  what we have here is kids being pushed OUT of it, due the opinions of some parents that trig is unnecessary because children should have already decided by sophomore year in high school that math/science is shut out forever. 

and no, I won't be pushing my kids into engineering, because I won't be having any if I have to.  if I can pay for a certain class of schools, ie the Ivies (upper or lower), NYU (anybody can get in, and gives access to NYU grad programs which are great), UChicago, etc, there's no need to push into anything, they can make their own choices.  but I will definitely be forcing them to learn calculus.  and physics.  and european history.  and essay writing.  and recommend a few other things.  throughout high school. 

sorry likewise, I can't answer all your points, that would take a friggin essay.  you set yourself up with the comment about trig.  take it back, you know you're wrong.  lol.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 27, 2006, 05:17:26 AM
What if your children aren't ready for calculus in high school? You can't really force them into classes if they don't have the grades/inclination because you'll only be hurting their chances of getting into college if you shove them into classes they can't do well in. Do you really want to badger the school to let your kid into calculus just to have him/her get a D or F because he/she isn't ready yet?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 27, 2006, 05:48:26 AM
You're still missing the point entirely, man.  No worries.  Good luck to you.  You'll likely need it.

You, your (future) SO, and your children will require an ENORMOUS amount of therapy. 

I've been around the block and have some excellent recommendations--just ask.

 ;)


on average?  looking around, i'd say around 80% more than liberal arts majors, outside a few core disciplines like math and such (which are, believe it or not, liberal arts! the irony).  and 30% or so more than business majors.

i'm not saying children should be pushed into sci-tech or math.  what we have here is kids being pushed OUT of it, due the opinions of some parents that trig is unnecessary because children should have already decided by sophomore year in high school that math/science is shut out forever. 

and no, I won't be pushing my kids into engineering, because I won't be having any if I have to.  if I can pay for a certain class of schools, ie the Ivies (upper or lower), NYU (anybody can get in, and gives access to NYU grad programs which are great), UChicago, etc, there's no need to push into anything, they can make their own choices.  but I will definitely be forcing them to learn calculus.  and physics.  and european history.  and essay writing.  and recommend a few other things.  throughout high school. 

sorry likewise, I can't answer all your points, that would take a friggin essay.  you set yourself up with the comment about trig.  take it back, you know you're wrong.  lol.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 27, 2006, 05:51:42 AM
You're one of my favorites, Likewise. Everything that you say makes sense and is decent.

Yeah, I hate to join in on a suckfest, but I agree.

Thanks, kindly.  I have a high opinion of what you write also.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Catgirl on April 27, 2006, 10:14:21 AM
I just turned 40 and I'm not having kids.  I've been married almost 11 years and hubby didn't want kids either.  I don't think I would be back in school now if I'd had kids, and I really doubt I'd be considering law school with kids.

I love other people's kids.  I can always give them back.  ;D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 27, 2006, 11:57:15 AM
What if your children aren't ready for calculus in high school? You can't really force them into classes if they don't have the grades/inclination because you'll only be hurting their chances of getting into college if you shove them into classes they can't do well in. Do you really want to badger the school to let your kid into calculus just to have him/her get a D or F because he/she isn't ready yet?

how can somebody not be "ready" for calculus in high school?  the same way they aren't ready for multiplication and fractions in elementary school, or basic geometry and algebra in middle school?

that's what's wrong here.  not being ready for calculus in high is equivalent to not being ready to analyze literature in high school.  you shouldn't be able to graduate either way...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 27, 2006, 01:37:33 PM
What if your children aren't ready for calculus in high school? You can't really force them into classes if they don't have the grades/inclination because you'll only be hurting their chances of getting into college if you shove them into classes they can't do well in. Do you really want to badger the school to let your kid into calculus just to have him/her get a D or F because he/she isn't ready yet?

how can somebody not be "ready" for calculus in high school?  the same way they aren't ready for multiplication and fractions in elementary school, or basic geometry and algebra in middle school?

that's what's wrong here.  not being ready for calculus in high is equivalent to not being ready to analyze literature in high school.  you shouldn't be able to graduate either way...

This is some of the nuttiest sh*t you've written yet.  Less than 20% of students currently take Calc in high school.  In fact, more than 40% of HSers don't get past geometry, let alone Algebra II.

How on God's green earth could you get this to work? 

In addition, more than 50% of students entering college require a remedial English course!  For these students, once they've bagged Algebra, don't ya think we should teach them how to read and write?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 27, 2006, 02:00:09 PM
What if your children aren't ready for calculus in high school? You can't really force them into classes if they don't have the grades/inclination because you'll only be hurting their chances of getting into college if you shove them into classes they can't do well in. Do you really want to badger the school to let your kid into calculus just to have him/her get a D or F because he/she isn't ready yet?

how can somebody not be "ready" for calculus in high school?  the same way they aren't ready for multiplication and fractions in elementary school, or basic geometry and algebra in middle school?

that's what's wrong here.  not being ready for calculus in high is equivalent to not being ready to analyze literature in high school.  you shouldn't be able to graduate either way...

This is some of the nuttiest sh*t you've written yet.  Less than 20% of students currently take Calc in high school.  In fact, more than 40% of HSers don't get past geometry, let alone Algebra II.

How on God's green earth could you get this to work? 

In addition, more than 50% of students entering college require a remedial English course!  For these students, once they've bagged Algebra, don't ya think we should teach them how to read and write?

dude I'm not raising hicks who need to take remedial English in college...
same sh*t applies to math...

the fact that the system is screwed up beyond belief and this would be impossible to implement in America is a different issue.  part of the reason I said private schools only if I have kids.  my comment was one of general disgust with the educational system, and HS "grads" that can't do 5th grade reading or math. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jacy85 on April 27, 2006, 03:10:06 PM
Ok, how about people who have 0 aptitude for math (at least past geometry or something) and struggle no matter how hard they work?  Would you disown your child for not being ABLE to do well in calc, even if (s)he was a stellar writer?

People that don't have an aptitude for higher math probably won't be aiming to become an engineer.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 27, 2006, 04:14:16 PM
What if your children aren't ready for calculus in high school? You can't really force them into classes if they don't have the grades/inclination because you'll only be hurting their chances of getting into college if you shove them into classes they can't do well in. Do you really want to badger the school to let your kid into calculus just to have him/her get a D or F because he/she isn't ready yet?

how can somebody not be "ready" for calculus in high school?  the same way they aren't ready for multiplication and fractions in elementary school, or basic geometry and algebra in middle school?

that's what's wrong here.  not being ready for calculus in high is equivalent to not being ready to analyze literature in high school.  you shouldn't be able to graduate either way...

This is some of the nuttiest sh*t you've written yet.  Less than 20% of students currently take Calc in high school.  In fact, more than 40% of HSers don't get past geometry, let alone Algebra II.

How on God's green earth could you get this to work? 

In addition, more than 50% of students entering college require a remedial English course!  For these students, once they've bagged Algebra, don't ya think we should teach them how to read and write?

dude I'm not raising hicks who need to take remedial English in college...
same sh*t applies to math...

the fact that the system is screwed up beyond belief and this would be impossible to implement in America is a different issue.  part of the reason I said private schools only if I have kids.  my comment was one of general disgust with the educational system, and HS "grads" that can't do 5th grade reading or math. 

Nah, you were talking about EVERYONE.  EVERYONE should be required to take Calc.  It can't be done. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 27, 2006, 07:47:22 PM
I know many people with graduate degrees who have never taken calculus. Ultimately, you are not going to be able to decide whether your child takes calculus anyway. If he/she can't really grasp geometry and algebra, no sensible school is going to allow him/her to go into AP calculus. Calculus is a higher level skill that many people with graduate degrees do not have.  Saying that no one should graduate from high school without having that skills is ridiculous because then you'd deny anyone who is not adept at math any chance of success.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 27, 2006, 10:27:44 PM
I know many people with graduate degrees who have never taken calculus. Ultimately, you are not going to be able to decide whether your child takes calculus anyway. If he/she can't really grasp geometry and algebra, no sensible school is going to allow him/her to go into AP calculus. Calculus is a higher level skill that many people with graduate degrees do not have.  Saying that no one should graduate from high school without having that skills is ridiculous because then you'd deny anyone who is not adept at math any chance of success.

no such thing.  laziness somewhere along the line.  everybody can "grasp" math through basic introductory ordinary differential equations if forced to and prepared properly.  it's laziness, not doing work, etc, which causes problems.  now, diff-eq really isn't necessary (because we can reasonably allow a college student to decide it's unnecessary for them), but basic math is.  that includes introductory calculus.

the problem with math education in this country is that people seem to think that "not grasping" basic math is acceptable, while everybody should "grasp" english.  same goes for people with graduate degrees who didn't take calculus.  it is largely because they didn't want to, not because they couldn't, had it been clearly made integral to their education earlier with good fundamentals, anybody can "grasp" the basics...  well, at least anybody with a reasonable IQ... which would tend to include those with graduate degrees  ;)
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jacy85 on April 28, 2006, 04:38:31 AM

no such thing.  laziness somewhere along the line.  everybody can "grasp" math through basic introductory ordinary differential equations if forced to and prepared properly.  it's laziness, not doing work, etc, which causes problems.  now, diff-eq really isn't necessary (because we can reasonably allow a college student to decide it's unnecessary for them), but basic math is.  that includes introductory calculus.


This is ignorant, and shows you have never been a teacher in any capacity. 

I have several friends who are teachers; they see students every day that struggle with basic math.  It's not "laziness" when the kid spends 4 hours trying to do 15 geometry problems.  It's not "laziness" when the kid stays after school with the teacher or a tutor trying to understand.  The fact of the matter is that each individual is different, with different skills, aptitudes, and abilities. 

One would have thought that by this point in your life, you would have realized this.  Maybe that failure is "laziness" on your part...or perhaps just ignorance.  Who knows.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 28, 2006, 05:06:24 AM
I'm also a teacher and agree that people have different talents and abilities. I really struggled with math in high school. I managed to get decent enough grades to make it into calculus, but I couldn't even grasp even the most basic concepts. I took it again much later and did well, but I think that was because I just wasn't intellectually ready to take it yet. I think that we have the same problem in English as well- students are asked to read books that have a lot of concepts that teents really haven't had to face yet and will not really understand. Teens simply aren't as mature or as intellectually developed as adults and should not be forced into learning things that are too advanced for them.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jvan2619 on April 28, 2006, 06:14:59 AM
On a related note to the calc discussion...

My husband and I talk a great deal of the lack of curriculum around basic financial skills.  He owns restaurants and literally none of the employees (of those that DID graduate...yet another issue) can balance a checkbook.  They can seriously barely make change for customers.  I wonder why schools don't focus on those life skills as well.  And yes, I know that parents are expected to teach life skills, but shouldn't that be part of the curriculum?  I understand the whole "the world needs ditch diggers too" philosophy but isn't part of the goal of high school to prepare students for the real world?

Just curious to hear your thoughts on this. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jacy85 on April 28, 2006, 07:11:00 AM
I agree with this as well.  High schools are horribly inept at preparing kids for *life*.  It doesn't matter whether a student is college bound or not.  Basic financial skills are necessary.  Kids in college (let alone people that stop education after high school) have no idea how to pay their taxes, what a good rate on a loan is, how to balance a check book, or how to avoid credit debt.

Schools should be preparing *everyone* with necessary life skills and information, not just calculus.  I'd argue that basic financial life skills are *more* important than calculus; *everyone* uses them, unlike higher math.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 28, 2006, 07:13:11 AM
Some places have required classes like that that you choose instead of health. Here in FL we have life management skills (which goes over stuff like balancing a checkbook).  Also, before FL had the standardized test, there was a basic competency test that everyone had to pass to finish high school that involved stuff like that. Although honestly, nowadays people don't even use checks anymore so it isn't so critical to balance a checkbook. I haven't balanced my checkbook in years, nor do I use more than one check a month maximum. I just go online to check my account.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jvan2619 on April 28, 2006, 07:20:45 AM
Point taken on the checkbook issue.  I more meant being able to balance their checking accounts without overdrafting.   

I actually do live in Florida.  Another thing that I have found odd about the curriculum is that kids at my husbands' restaurant who are in high school work there as a "class".  For instance one girl is a Junior.  All she takes is English, PE, Home Ec, and "work".  He signs off on her card each week or so and it counts the same as two classes pass/fail.  Any thoughts on this?  What happened to history, government, math, language, etc.?  Just curious...with these kids I never know if they are full of it or if this is really the case. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 28, 2006, 07:28:09 AM
Kids can take OJT (on the job training) as a class junior or senior year as long as their required classes are covered. With block scheduling and 8 credits a year, lots of students are able to get the required stuff out of the way by junior year and have all of senior year to waste. Many take OJT after lunchtime to make some extra cash, although none of them seem to go to any skilled sorts of professions. Usually they go to restaurants or retail. When I was in high school (I started 15 years ago), very few people took DCT (what it was called back then) because there were 6 periods a day and people couldn't finished the required courses as quickly. Basically I think it is fairly silly. The students who want to go to college should be taking more advanced classes, while the students who want skilled jobs are probably taking courses like cosmetology or culinary arts for half the day.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jvan2619 on April 28, 2006, 07:35:09 AM
Thanks for the response queencruella.  I wasn't sure how all of that worked.  What are your thoughts on this system? 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 28, 2006, 07:43:45 AM
I don't think that OJT is itself stupid, but I really think it's only useful if students are doing in addition to a related technical program. If you have a student doing culinary arts, spending an hour or two a day in a restaurant's kitchen is probably quite helpful. However, most students are just going to work at the mall or as bus/host staff at restaurants, which I generally think is stupid. I am very opposed to block scheduling, which is more likely to have lots of OJT students because they'll have 24 credits after junior year. It's really awful for stuff like foreign language and AP because you really need those year round.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 28, 2006, 07:48:46 AM

no such thing.  laziness somewhere along the line.  everybody can "grasp" math through basic introductory ordinary differential equations if forced to and prepared properly.  it's laziness, not doing work, etc, which causes problems.  now, diff-eq really isn't necessary (because we can reasonably allow a college student to decide it's unnecessary for them), but basic math is.  that includes introductory calculus.


This is ignorant, and shows you have never been a teacher in any capacity. 

I have several friends who are teachers; they see students every day that struggle with basic math.  It's not "laziness" when the kid spends 4 hours trying to do 15 geometry problems.  It's not "laziness" when the kid stays after school with the teacher or a tutor trying to understand.  The fact of the matter is that each individual is different, with different skills, aptitudes, and abilities. 

One would have thought that by this point in your life, you would have realized this.  Maybe that failure is "laziness" on your part...or perhaps just ignorance.  Who knows.

Agreed.  I've taught HS geometry, algebra, lit, and writing.  The issue is NOT laziness but aptitude.  Would I rant that many engineers I work with appear to have never read a novel or a poem and seem disinterested in the arts in general?  No, that stuff's just not their bag.  Would I like them to?  Yes.

More importantly, I think that someone with the intellectual capacity to obtain a comp sci degree and generate dozens of lines of good code each day should have been taught to write a decent sentence in English somewhere along the way.

Math is a VITAL life skill.  I intended to be a math major in UG, took two additional semesters of calc beyond HS, a discrete course, and diffeq.  I FAILED out of diffeq miserably.  FAILED. I had hit my capacity and could not solve a SINGLE HW or quiz problem.  So, I changed my major to psych, which I enjoyed more.  Then, I changed it to English, because I realized I enjoyed that more.

Anyhoo, my story is the same one I've seen played out time after time with the kids I taught.  I tried method after method with some students without success.  Other teachers would work with the same students without success.  Some kids just can't get it.

So, as I wrote above, why set an arbitrary standard that must be met by each child.  As Americans, we guarantee education (depending on the state) until age 18 or 21.  Education.  NorCal can call it a "high school" diploma.

Whether students incapable of college prep level achievement are given the same diploma or not matters not.  We (as Americans) guarantee each child an education.  Those students incapable of high-end achievement, inclusion, or requiring special emotional or academic attention deserve to be treated as indviduals.  These (and all students, for that matter) should never be held to an arbitrary requirement like taking calc.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jvan2619 on April 28, 2006, 07:51:58 AM
Again great point queen!

I agree with your opinion on what kids REALLY do during these times.  I can tell you that working at my husbands' restaurant is teaching them next to nothing...except how to make change as I stated earlier :)  Other than that, it kind of feels like the school has given up on these kids so they figure that the kids should make a little money in the meantime.  Like you said, it would be different if it was a professional atmosphere or a "trade" but bussing tables????  

[
[/quote]

I FAILED out of diffeq miserably.  FAILED.
[/quote]

Man I hated Diff EQ!!!  barely passed with a D...and I was an engineering major!  Just wanted to let you know that I feel your pain there!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on April 28, 2006, 08:03:07 AM
I knew of one student who was doing 2 OJTs on block scheduling at a restaurant, taking no honors courses, and she wanted to go to college! Seriously, does that make sense to you?

I agree with Likewise's point about education. For many students, college prep achievement is out of reach and quite frankly it's demeaning when a child tries his/her hardest and cannot succeed. If we realized that students have individual desires and aptitudes and accepted that some may be better in other areas, that would probably do a great deal to develop pride in any employment and stop job turnover as a result. I was amazed to go to Japan and see the people working at McDonald's when I came were still working when I left 2 years later. They are not taught that any job is demeaning- people are proud to say they work at a gas station.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 28, 2006, 09:42:28 AM
tabula rasa be damned...  ::)
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: likewise on April 28, 2006, 10:27:44 AM
tabula raza be damned...  ::)

Spelling be damned...   ;)
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 28, 2006, 11:24:06 AM
tabula raza be damned...  ::)

Spelling be damned...   ;)

Edited.  Been a few years since I read Locke... even longer since I took a Latin class.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: greengrl on April 28, 2006, 10:15:20 PM
tabula raza be damned...  ::)

Spelling be damned...   ;)

Edited.  Been a few years since I read Locke... even longer since I took a Latin class.


woo hoo; a fellow Latin language student :) thinking of declensions is giving me a headache...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: norcaldude on April 29, 2006, 12:34:59 AM
amo, amas, amat, amamus,amatus, amant.

not sure what else I remember from my three years of Latin.   ;D

and the ten million tenses.  took it a long time ago to improve my vocab (yeah, took it in middle school to improve vocabulary for the SAT, I know, very sad).
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: greengrl on April 29, 2006, 07:04:06 AM
amo, amas, amat, amamus,amatus, amant.

not sure what else I remember from my three years of Latin.   ;D

and the ten million tenses.  took it a long time ago to improve my vocab (yeah, took it in middle school to improve vocabulary for the SAT, I know, very sad).


hahaha...yeah, but it did wonders for my vocabulary

Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: redemption on April 29, 2006, 07:39:49 AM
Is sermo est insolitus
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: upNdown on May 02, 2006, 06:11:51 AM
tabula raza be damned...  ::)

Spelling be damned...   ;)

Edited.  Been a few years since I read Locke... even longer since I took a Latin class.


woo hoo; a fellow Latin language student :) thinking of declensions is giving me a headache...

I took 3 years of Latin in highschool, then couldn't test out of it for college so I had to take another two semesters (or was it 4?) as an undergrad.  And sadly, I've retained very little.  I did name my fantasy baseball team Tabula Rasa this year, so I guess I remembered something. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: upNdown on May 02, 2006, 06:15:48 AM
Is sermo est insolitus

And I believe that is exactly what you'd say about me if I tried to say anying in latin, beyond "tabula rasa."
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on May 03, 2006, 05:51:22 AM
this is all i remember of my latin

pulchra puella.

thats it
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 11, 2006, 08:54:43 AM
the numbers for men and women are about equal, but alot more men then women want kids.

wonder why?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: hopsak on August 11, 2006, 12:36:25 PM
not only that, but a lot more women *don't* want kids, compared to men. 

kind of nice to see the old gender stereotype reversed once in a while, even though this could hardly qualify as a scientific survey or anything. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Fitness Mandy on August 15, 2006, 04:28:48 PM
After all the talk of math on this thread I have decided that it would be completely irresponsible of me to ever have kids. I'm one of those mathematically challenged people. I have zero aptitude for it. While my husband is an engineer with above average math skills, I still think it would be too risky to bring a child into this world who might take after me in the math department.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 15, 2006, 04:47:25 PM
After all the talk of math on this thread I have decided that it would be completely irresponsible of me to ever have kids. I'm one of those mathematically challenged people. I have zero aptitude for it. While my husband is an engineer with above average math skills, I still think it would be too risky to bring a child into this world who might take after me in the math department.

then just have girls, they dont need to worry about that awful math stuff!


bwuahahahahahahahahahahaha   ;D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: TrailDiva on August 22, 2006, 12:57:37 PM
They (doctors) absolutely will not snip if you don't have kids already.
It's bizarre, and more than a little annoying...

Huh? My husband and I don't have kids, and we had no problem getting him snipped.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 22, 2006, 01:25:44 PM
They (doctors) absolutely will not snip if you don't have kids already.
It's bizarre, and more than a little annoying...

Huh? My husband and I don't have kids, and we had no problem getting him snipped.

im sure you didnt, but he might have had an objection or two...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 29, 2006, 05:49:28 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14535863/site/newsweek/

OUR NUMbers are growing...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: scottie on August 29, 2006, 07:29:26 AM
Couples not having kids and those having only a singleton are certainly growing, even here in the US.  However, I might point out that this trend is unlikely to last more than a generation or two :) 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Highway on August 29, 2006, 10:05:24 AM
I think that the chances of having kids is inversely propotional to the age you get married. If you marry young, you are more likely to have a child (sometimes for the wrong reasons - e.g. we need a child to help bring us closer together; or to bring something back to the marriage) than if you wait until you are 35 to get married. Of course, some people get married at 35 because they are dying to have a child.

It also has a lot to do with social pressures. If you are married and all of your friends and/or siblings start having babies, you may begin to feel very left out very quickly. Couples with kids and those without kids tend to go their separate ways. Often, the couple without kids doesn't appear sympathetic to the needs of the parents (why can't Joe come over to the bar for a few hours and hang out like he used to?), and the parents may feel jealous of the childless couple (they get to go out to dinners and movies all the time and seem to have a lot more disposable income). Parents want to hang out with other parents who understand them, and childless couples want to be able to hang out with people who don't have that responsibility.

Whatever you decide, please don't be one of those people who is single at 45 saying that you "chose" not to have children. Your so called "choice" doesn't negate the fact that nobody wanted to marry your ugly butt, and you never really had a "choice." Those people are annoying.  :o
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: greengrl on August 29, 2006, 11:07:24 AM
I think that the chances of having kids is inversely propotional to the age you get married. If you marry young, you are more likely to have a child (sometimes for the wrong reasons - e.g. we need a child to help bring us closer together; or to bring something back to the marriage) than if you wait until you are 35 to get married. Of course, some people get married at 35 because they are dying to have a child.

It also has a lot to do with social pressures. If you are married and all of your friends and/or siblings start having babies, you may begin to feel very left out very quickly. Couples with kids and those without kids tend to go their separate ways. Often, the couple without kids doesn't appear sympathetic to the needs of the parents (why can't Joe come over to the bar for a few hours and hang out like he used to?), and the parents may feel jealous of the childless couple (they get to go out to dinners and movies all the time and seem to have a lot more disposable income). Parents want to hang out with other parents who understand them, and childless couples want to be able to hang out with people who don't have that responsibility.

Whatever you decide, please don't be one of those people who is single at 45 saying that you "chose" not to have children. Your so called "choice" doesn't negate the fact that nobody wanted to marry your ugly butt, and you never really had a "choice." Those people are annoying.  :o

this is definitely one of the more ignorant, condescending and judgemental things i've read on this board, esp this thread. you apparently need to expand your social circles to include forty something professional women who are secure enough to make the choice not to have children. or clearly you failed to realize that there are millions of individuals who procreate each year who do not subscribe to traditional notions of beauty. in the same way that beauty is not a prerequisite for reproduction, either is intelligence. thank you for making my point
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on August 29, 2006, 12:04:47 PM
Seconded, greengrl. I have plenty of friends who married young and are still childless because the women are still trying to move forward in their chosen careers and are not yet ready to have children. Lots of women at 45 may not be that interested in getting married at all. In some cultures the birth rate is astoundingly low and it's becoming more and more popular for people to swear off marriage and children altogether. This isn't because they aren't good looking enough or nice enough, it's because they care more about their careers or have other interests that don't really mesh with having children or being married.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Highway on August 30, 2006, 05:19:03 AM
this is definitely one of the more ignorant, condescending and judgemental things i've read on this board, esp this thread. you apparently need to expand your social circles to include forty something professional women who are secure enough to make the choice not to have children. or clearly you failed to realize that there are millions of individuals who procreate each year who do not subscribe to traditional notions of beauty. in the same way that beauty is not a prerequisite for reproduction, either is intelligence. thank you for making my point

If you are a professional 40-something, and married, I have no issues with you. If, on the other hand, you are one of those people who flaunt your childlessness at those who have children (and I've met plenty who do), and you have never been married, and are still single, then I don't want to hear about your "choice" not to have children. The fact is that you never had a man that wanted to have a child with you, so you never made the "choice." It was made for you. Stop deluding yourself and making it sound like you made some grand sacrifice.

I have met several people like this. They are nice people, but I want to throw up when they talk about their "choice" to not have children, knowing full well that they just never had the opportunity. I'm not aiming my statements specifically at professional women, either. I can understand that a lot of them do choose not to have children.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ADL on August 30, 2006, 07:35:30 AM


If you are a professional 40-something, and married, I have no issues with you. If, on the other hand, you are one of those people who flaunt your childlessness at those who have children (and I've met plenty who do), and you have never been married, and are still single, then I don't want to hear about your "choice" not to have children. The fact is that you never had a man that wanted to have a child with you, so you never made the "choice." It was made for you. Stop deluding yourself and making it sound like you made some grand sacrifice.

I have met several people like this. They are nice people, but I want to throw up when they talk about their "choice" to not have children, knowing full well that they just never had the opportunity. I'm not aiming my statements specifically at professional women, either. I can understand that a lot of them do choose not to have children.
[/quote]
what do you mean by "flaunting childlesness"?  & where do you meet these people?  just curious b/c the people that i meet who don't have or don't want kids don't seem to do this.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ADL on August 30, 2006, 10:28:23 AM
That's because when you are stuck wiping baby butts, sitting through tedious and excrutiating "choir concerts," and not having sex, any mention from a friend who just got back from a weekend spa trip to jamaica and bought gorgeous new sandals seems like they are rubbing it in your face.


Even if all they are doing is telling you about their day :)
maybe, some parents feel that weay, but i never felt have.  i hope that i don't give childless people the impression that i'm flaunting my motherhood when i talk about my son. 
& the not having sex part is for people who are married.  so i guess i should be glad that i'm a single parent.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ADL on August 30, 2006, 10:39:53 AM
haha, i am being a little bit tongue in cheek.
oh good!  i was about to cancel my plans to get laid for later tonite.   :D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 30, 2006, 11:18:48 AM
haha, i need some  tongue between my  cheeks.

whoa ho, HOT!!!


haha, i need some  tongue between my  cheeks.
oh good!  i can come over and we can have some hot lezzie monkey love.   :D


dang!!!  tape it please!!

and send me a copy, of course...  ;)
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on August 30, 2006, 12:03:13 PM
That's because when you are stuck wiping baby butts, sitting through tedious and excrutiating "choir concerts," and not having sex, any mention from a friend who just got back from a weekend spa trip to jamaica and bought gorgeous new sandals seems like they are rubbing it in your face.


Even if all they are doing is telling you about their day :)
maybe, some parents feel that weay, but i never felt have.  i hope that i don't give childless people the impression that i'm flaunting my motherhood when i talk about my son. 
& the not having sex part is for people who are married.  so i guess i should be glad that i'm a single parent.

I don't think that either group really thinks its flaunting itself in front of the other, but it's just a matter of talking about one's day or week. I do think at some level it is hard for people in each group to relate to the other. For instance, I have a friend who is having a baby and she always questions me about whether I'm worried about having kids since I am going to grad school at such a "late" age. I think that's really the only time when it can get annoying. Then again, I know a ton of people who treat their cats like kids and those people tend to give many more cat updates or cat stories than people I know with children.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: greengrl on August 30, 2006, 12:46:35 PM
this is definitely one of the more ignorant, condescending and judgemental things i've read on this board, esp this thread. you apparently need to expand your social circles to include forty something professional women who are secure enough to make the choice not to have children. or clearly you failed to realize that there are millions of individuals who procreate each year who do not subscribe to traditional notions of beauty. in the same way that beauty is not a prerequisite for reproduction, either is intelligence. thank you for making my point

If you are a professional 40-something, and married, I have no issues with you. If, on the other hand, you are one of those people who flaunt your childlessness at those who have children (and I've met plenty who do), and you have never been married, and are still single, then I don't want to hear about your "choice" not to have children. The fact is that you never had a man that wanted to have a child with you, so you never made the "choice." It was made for you. Stop deluding yourself and making it sound like you made some grand sacrifice.I have met several people like this. They are nice people, but I want to throw up when they talk about their "choice" to not have children, knowing full well that they just never had the opportunity. I'm not aiming my statements specifically at professional women, either. I can understand that a lot of them do choose not to have children.

in case you have missed the last few decades of reproductive technology women do not *need* a man to "lay down with her" for lack of better terms. A woman who chooses to have a child but does not find the right man can walk on down to her local sperm bank.  a man can purchase an egg and secure a surrogate womb. either sex can adopt.  as hard as it is for you to believe, there are plenty of people in this world who aren't interested in parenthood. and it's a CHOICE.

but you can keep believing whatever it is that makes you happy and deluded. sorry if you made the decision and regretted it later..
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Highway on August 30, 2006, 01:03:12 PM
this is definitely one of the more ignorant, condescending and judgemental things i've read on this board, esp this thread. you apparently need to expand your social circles to include forty something professional women who are secure enough to make the choice not to have children. or clearly you failed to realize that there are millions of individuals who procreate each year who do not subscribe to traditional notions of beauty. in the same way that beauty is not a prerequisite for reproduction, either is intelligence. thank you for making my point

If you are a professional 40-something, and married, I have no issues with you. If, on the other hand, you are one of those people who flaunt your childlessness at those who have children (and I've met plenty who do), and you have never been married, and are still single, then I don't want to hear about your "choice" not to have children. The fact is that you never had a man that wanted to have a child with you, so you never made the "choice." It was made for you. Stop deluding yourself and making it sound like you made some grand sacrifice.I have met several people like this. They are nice people, but I want to throw up when they talk about their "choice" to not have children, knowing full well that they just never had the opportunity. I'm not aiming my statements specifically at professional women, either. I can understand that a lot of them do choose not to have children.

in case you have missed the last few decades of reproductive technology women do not *need* a man to "lay down with her" for lack of better terms. A woman who chooses to have a child but does not find the right man can walk on down to her local sperm bank.  a man can purchase an egg and secure a surrogate womb. either sex can adopt.  as hard as it is for you to believe, there are plenty of people in this world who aren't interested in parenthood. and it's a CHOICE.

but you can keep believing whatever it is that makes you happy and deluded. sorry if you made the decision and regretted it later..

Thank you for continuing to miss my point altogether. Good luck reading case law.

Perhaps an example is in order:

I have a female friend who I've known for six years. She is in her 40's. She has never been married. In the six years I've known her, she has never had a date. She lives with her cats, who she treats as her children (don't get me started on childless women who treat pets like their children). Anyway, an example would be that she would come to work on a Monday and tell me about how great her weekend was because she got to go out of town shopping (or something). I would then tell her that I wished I could have done that, but I had to stay home and take the kids to the pool instead. She would then say something to the effect of, "That's why I'm glad I chose not to have children."

That annoys me. She did not CHOOSE not to have children. She never met a man and never got married and never had the chance to get pregnant. Now, I know you can adopt or sperm bank it, etc., but that is a non-traditional method that I would dare say the MAJORITY of women do not consider unless they are desparte to have a child.

Don't flaunt how much your life is better because you CHOSE not to have children when you really never made such a choice. That is what I am trying to say. That annoys me.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 30, 2006, 01:12:40 PM
things sure do get nasty around here quick.

and i dont mean in the good way!  :(
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ADL on August 30, 2006, 01:45:03 PM
this is definitely one of the more ignorant, condescending and judgemental things i've read on this board, esp this thread. you apparently need to expand your social circles to include forty something professional women who are secure enough to make the choice not to have children. or clearly you failed to realize that there are millions of individuals who procreate each year who do not subscribe to traditional notions of beauty. in the same way that beauty is not a prerequisite for reproduction, either is intelligence. thank you for making my point

If you are a professional 40-something, and married, I have no issues with you. If, on the other hand, you are one of those people who flaunt your childlessness at those who have children (and I've met plenty who do), and you have never been married, and are still single, then I don't want to hear about your "choice" not to have children. The fact is that you never had a man that wanted to have a child with you, so you never made the "choice." It was made for you. Stop deluding yourself and making it sound like you made some grand sacrifice.I have met several people like this. They are nice people, but I want to throw up when they talk about their "choice" to not have children, knowing full well that they just never had the opportunity. I'm not aiming my statements specifically at professional women, either. I can understand that a lot of them do choose not to have children.

in case you have missed the last few decades of reproductive technology women do not *need* a man to "lay down with her" for lack of better terms. A woman who chooses to have a child but does not find the right man can walk on down to her local sperm bank.  a man can purchase an egg and secure a surrogate womb. either sex can adopt.  as hard as it is for you to believe, there are plenty of people in this world who aren't interested in parenthood. and it's a CHOICE.

but you can keep believing whatever it is that makes you happy and deluded. sorry if you made the decision and regretted it later..

Thank you for continuing to miss my point altogether. Good luck reading case law.

Perhaps an example is in order:

I have a female friend who I've known for six years. She is in her 40's. She has never been married. In the six years I've known her, she has never had a date. She lives with her cats, who she treats as her children (don't get me started on childless women who treat pets like their children). Anyway, an example would be that she would come to work on a Monday and tell me about how great her weekend was because she got to go out of town shopping (or something). I would then tell her that I wished I could have done that, but I had to stay home and take the kids to the pool instead. She would then say something to the effect of, "That's why I'm glad I chose not to have children."

That annoys me. She did not CHOOSE not to have children. She never met a man and never got married and never had the chance to get pregnant. Now, I know you can adopt or sperm bank it, etc., but that is a non-traditional method that I would dare say the MAJORITY of women do not consider unless they are desparte to have a child.

Don't flaunt how much your life is better because you CHOSE not to have children when you really never made such a choice. That is what I am trying to say. That annoys me.
first off, my-ex, who is a man that i lived w/for 6yrs treated our cats like they were his children.  he treats all animals that way.  what does that have to do w/single childless women?  some people are animal people.

secondly, why does her saying that she's glad she chose not to have children bother you if you're happy w/you're choice.  maybe it's her who's unhappy & feels like she has to prove the opposite.  in any case, that's no reason for you to get annoyed if your truly happy w/you're situation.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on August 30, 2006, 05:45:58 PM
All of my friends who act like their cats are children are married but childless.

Highway- your friend was just mentioning that she was excited to go on a shopping trip and then you had to mention that you aren't able to do that because you have kids. How else should your friend be expected to react in such a situation? It's not like she's walking around saying, "Hooray! I'm childless!" It's just something that comes up in conversation because you throw yourself a pity party when she mentions that she went out of town for the weekend.

She DID choose not to have children. It only takes one time to get pregnant- you don't even need a date for that, you can just have a booty call or pick some random guy up at a bar. If you aren't into that because it's too risky you can go to a sperm bank. Ultimately, if a woman wants a child enough, she'll figure out how to have one.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Highway on August 31, 2006, 05:44:04 AM
Highway- your friend was just mentioning that she was excited to go on a shopping trip and then you had to mention that you aren't able to do that because you have kids. How else should your friend be expected to react in such a situation? It's not like she's walking around saying, "Hooray! I'm childless!" It's just something that comes up in conversation because you throw yourself a pity party when she mentions that she went out of town for the weekend.

She DID choose not to have children. It only takes one time to get pregnant- you don't even need a date for that, you can just have a booty call or pick some random guy up at a bar. If you aren't into that because it's too risky you can go to a sperm bank. Ultimately, if a woman wants a child enough, she'll figure out how to have one.

How should she react? How about, "You're a good dad."; "You probably had fun with the kids."; something of that nature. Not by saying that my life makes her glad she made a CHOICE not to have children. That IS rubbing it in my face - she is flat-out saying her life is better than mine because she has no children. Whether it is true or not is not the issue. The reverse of that situation would be something to the effect of her saying she went out shopping over the weekend and having me respond that she must have had a really dull time since she has no family to share that with.

It doesn't piss me off that she brags about how great her life is because she has no children, because we each have our ups and downs in life, with or without kids. What pisses me off is that she continues to insist she made the "choice" not to have them. If you knew her, you'd know she's not the booty call or bar scene type of person; nor would she go to a sperm bank, and she has often mentioned how she has never even wanted a man in her life.

If you want to go on about your great childless life, AND you have never been married and don't care for men in your life, then there is no need to act like you made some grand sacrifice. That is what this girl does, and that is what annoys me.

At any rate, I'll stop here. I'm obviously dealing with a bunch of women on this forum who will always side against a man in this instance. I have been married long enough to know when continuing to argue becomes futile.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on August 31, 2006, 05:56:40 AM
By phrasing it "I would love to but I had to stay home with the kids and take them to the pool," it sounds like you are throwing a pity party for yourself. If you phrased it in a more positive way like, "Oh my kids and I went to the pool and had a fantastic time!" then your friend would be unlikely to say she didn't want to have kids.

You haven't known this woman her whole life, so I don't think you have any right to say that she never had any chance to get married. Maybe she lived quite a full dating life in her 20s and early 30s but decided she preferred a single life without children and stopped dating.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ADL on August 31, 2006, 06:02:49 AM
Highway- your friend was just mentioning that she was excited to go on a shopping trip and then you had to mention that you aren't able to do that because you have kids. How else should your friend be expected to react in such a situation? It's not like she's walking around saying, "Hooray! I'm childless!" It's just something that comes up in conversation because you throw yourself a pity party when she mentions that she went out of town for the weekend.

She DID choose not to have children. It only takes one time to get pregnant- you don't even need a date for that, you can just have a booty call or pick some random guy up at a bar. If you aren't into that because it's too risky you can go to a sperm bank. Ultimately, if a woman wants a child enough, she'll figure out how to have one.

How should she react? How about, "You're a good dad."; "You probably had fun with the kids."; something of that nature. Not by saying that my life makes her glad she made a CHOICE not to have children. That IS rubbing it in my face - she is flat-out saying her life is better than mine because she has no children. Whether it is true or not is not the issue. The reverse of that situation would be something to the effect of her saying she went out shopping over the weekend and having me respond that she must have had a really dull time since she has no family to share that with.

It doesn't piss me off that she brags about how great her life is because she has no children, because we each have our ups and downs in life, with or without kids. What pisses me off is that she continues to insist she made the "choice" not to have them. If you knew her, you'd know she's not the booty call or bar scene type of person; nor would she go to a sperm bank, and she has often mentioned how she has never even wanted a man in her life.

If you want to go on about your great childless life, AND you have never been married and don't care for men in your life, then there is no need to act like you made some grand sacrifice. That is what this girl does, and that is what annoys me.

At any rate, I'll stop here. I'm obviously dealing with a bunch of women on this forum who will always side against a man in this instance. I have been married long enough to know when continuing to argue becomes futile.
this is the real issue behind the anger.  sorry that you're unhappily married w/children.  i hope that things get better for you.  :'(
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Highway on August 31, 2006, 06:49:17 AM
this is the real issue behind the anger.  sorry that you're unhappily married w/children.  i hope that things get better for you.  :'(

Thanks for your brilliant insight gleemed from one line of a post. Please now repeat to yourself that watching Dr. Phil does not make you a relationship expert.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ADL on August 31, 2006, 06:58:34 AM
this is the real issue behind the anger.  sorry that you're unhappily married w/children.  i hope that things get better for you.  :'(

Thanks for your brilliant insight gleemed from one line of a post. Please now repeat to yourself that watching Dr. Phil does not make you a relationship expert.
:D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 31, 2006, 08:00:04 AM
for those of us that dont want kids and there is an "accident", what r ur plans?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ADL on August 31, 2006, 08:08:59 AM
for those of us that dont want kids and there is an "accident", what r ur plans?
are you "choosing" not to have kids...apparently to Highway, it's not a choice, it means that you couldn't find anyone to have kids with.   :D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 31, 2006, 08:10:18 AM
for those of us that dont want kids and there is an "accident", what r ur plans?
are you "choosing" not to have kids...apparently to Highway, it's not a choice, it means that you couldn't find anyone to have kids with.   :D

i do not want them at all, but accidents happen.

and as a guy, i dont even have any real options until the girl tells me what her palns are.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ADL on August 31, 2006, 08:16:44 AM
for those of us that dont want kids and there is an "accident", what r ur plans?
are you "choosing" not to have kids...apparently to Highway, it's not a choice, it means that you couldn't find anyone to have kids with.   :D

i do not want them at all, but accidents happen.

and as a guy, i dont even have any real options until the girl tells me what her palns are.
what about a vasectomy?  that's a good option for you.  then you won't have to worry about accidents or the girl's plans.  think about it.  i heard that it's a very safe procedure & the men that i know who have had it done said that it was one of the best decisions they ever made. granted it's only 2 men.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 31, 2006, 10:46:48 AM
for those of us that dont want kids and there is an "accident", what r ur plans?
are you "choosing" not to have kids...apparently to Highway, it's not a choice, it means that you couldn't find anyone to have kids with.   :D

i do not want them at all, but accidents happen.

and as a guy, i dont even have any real options until the girl tells me what her palns are.
what about a vasectomy?  that's a good option for you.  then you won't have to worry about accidents or the girl's plans.  think about it.  i heard that it's a very safe procedure & the men that i know who have had it done said that it was one of the best decisions they ever made. granted it's only 2 men.

heard it was extremely painful and that they dont like to do it to single child free guys.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Highway on August 31, 2006, 11:09:08 AM
Highway-- I thought were female.  The fact that you're a guy only makes your argument that much more crap, but my original reaction was based on believing you were female.

Not sure that makes any sense.

Then again, if I had over 14,000 posts in just under 5 months of being registered on this forum (see: your profile), I'd probably be easily confused as well. But at least I now see that it isn't that you don't want kids...you just don't have time for them.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ADL on August 31, 2006, 11:45:25 AM
for those of us that dont want kids and there is an "accident", what r ur plans?
are you "choosing" not to have kids...apparently to Highway, it's not a choice, it means that you couldn't find anyone to have kids with.   :D

i do not want them at all, but accidents happen.

and as a guy, i dont even have any real options until the girl tells me what her palns are.
what about a vasectomy?  that's a good option for you.  then you won't have to worry about accidents or the girl's plans.  think about it.  i heard that it's a very safe procedure & the men that i know who have had it done said that it was one of the best decisions they ever made. granted it's only 2 men.

heard it was extremely painful and that they dont like to do it to single child free guys.
wouldn't be worth the temporary pain to have the vasectomy instead of bringing a child into the world that you don't want & having the responsibility to take care of that child?  i think so, if that's not what you want to do.  ultimately, the extreme pain outweighs 18yrs of taking of a child you don't want.  right?
& i'm pretty sure you can find someone to perform the procedure if you express your desire not to have kids, ever.  you can prob find someone since you're over 30. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 31, 2006, 11:53:34 AM
for those of us that dont want kids and there is an "accident", what r ur plans?
are you "choosing" not to have kids...apparently to Highway, it's not a choice, it means that you couldn't find anyone to have kids with.   :D

i do not want them at all, but accidents happen.

and as a guy, i dont even have any real options until the girl tells me what her palns are.
what about a vasectomy?  that's a good option for you.  then you won't have to worry about accidents or the girl's plans.  think about it.  i heard that it's a very safe procedure & the men that i know who have had it done said that it was one of the best decisions they ever made. granted it's only 2 men.

heard it was extremely painful and that they dont like to do it to single child free guys.
wouldn't be worth the temporary pain to have the vasectomy instead of bringing a child into the world that you don't want & having the responsibility to take care of that child?  i think so, if that's not what you want to do.  ultimately, the extreme pain outweighs 18yrs of taking of a child you don't want.  right?
& i'm pretty sure you can find someone to perform the procedure if you express your desire not to have kids, ever.  you can prob find someone since you're over 30. 

i will prob look into it more when i have time.

but like all guys, im terfied of a sudden earthquake!  :o
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: bender1020 on August 31, 2006, 01:34:29 PM
Highway-- I thought were female.  The fact that you're a guy only makes your argument that much more crap, but my original reaction was based on believing you were female.

Not sure that makes any sense.

Then again, if I had over 14,000 posts in just under 5 months of being registered on this forum (see: your profile), I'd probably be easily confused as well. But at least I now see that it isn't that you don't want kids...you just don't have time for them.


you are a dumbass (see: your LSAT score)



Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on September 07, 2006, 10:47:11 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/09/07/higher.education.report.ap/index.html

It's amazing," said Jack Partridge, a Columbus, Ohio, gas company executive who recently moved four daughters -- a sophomore and freshman triplets -- into their dorms at Miami University of Ohio. In-state tuition plus room and board run about $20,000 this year at the public school.



another reason not to have kids.

20k a yr * 4 years = 80k
*4 kids - 320k!!!!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on October 16, 2006, 07:44:50 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061015/ap_on_bi_ge/paying_for_college;_ylt=AvDIXXByiitz5m2OuAcaO3us0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

man those kids are $$$
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Cindy on November 15, 2006, 03:07:22 PM
I'm just shy of 24 and plan on never giving birth. My mom told me that even as a kid I claimed to never want to have a baby. In March I'm going to become a god-mother and think this is the way to go. Just inherit other peoples' children. In reality, I have decided that if I change my mind and want to raise a child, I will adopt.

(p.s. oldest of 6, have a 3-year-old sister)
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on November 15, 2006, 03:09:33 PM
I'm just shy of 24 and plan on never giving birth. My mom told me that even as a kid I claimed to never want to have a baby. In March I'm going to become a god-mother and think this is the way to go. Just inherit other peoples' children. In reality, I have decided that if I change my mind and want to raise a child, I will adopt.

(p.s. oldest of 6, have a 3-year-old sister)

i love you.    :-*
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Cindy on November 15, 2006, 03:13:30 PM
I'm just shy of 24 and plan on never giving birth. My mom told me that even as a kid I claimed to never want to have a baby. In March I'm going to become a god-mother and think this is the way to go. Just inherit other peoples' children. In reality, I have decided that if I change my mind and want to raise a child, I will adopt.

(p.s. oldest of 6, have a 3-year-old sister)

i love you.    :-*

haha, thanks!
it's my hot ass, isn't it? it's always the booty...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on November 15, 2006, 03:15:49 PM
I'm just shy of 24 and plan on never giving birth. My mom told me that even as a kid I claimed to never want to have a baby. In March I'm going to become a god-mother and think this is the way to go. Just inherit other peoples' children. In reality, I have decided that if I change my mind and want to raise a child, I will adopt.

(p.s. oldest of 6, have a 3-year-old sister)

i love you.    :-*

haha, thanks!
it's my hot ass, isn't it? it's always the booty...

;D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: epiphanize on December 13, 2006, 11:42:02 AM
I'm 26 and my wife is 25 and we have already made the decision we are never having children. I am starting 1L in the fall and she is starting Vet school. Neither of us see much point to putting all this effort into our education to then throw kids into the mix before our careers have really started. Not to mention neither of us are really fond of children so it was really a hard decision  ;D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: flyaway on December 13, 2006, 12:08:07 PM
We're 28 and 35, and we're not 100% commited to not having kids, but I'd say there's a greater than 50% chance that we won't.  The day-to-day kids stuff is really unappealing to us.  I would, however, like to take a kid to Disney World, but I can borrow my niece and nephew for that.

As a woman, though... I know there's a good chance I'll outlive my husband.  I think women get a worse deal than men when they don't have kids.  We don't know who will be around to take care of us when we're old. :(
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: sentimentalhygienist on December 13, 2006, 02:03:52 PM
As a woman, though... I know there's a good chance I'll outlive my husband.  I think women get a worse deal than men when they don't have kids.  We don't know who will be around to take care of us when we're old. :(

Of course, many people don't do much in the way of taking care of their elderly parents anyway.  So maybe the best bet is to take all of the money that would have been spent on kids and put it in a cushy retirement fund or long-term-care plan.

But then again, I'm just a child-free cynic.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Cindy on December 18, 2006, 03:33:07 PM
As a woman, though... I know there's a good chance I'll outlive my husband.  I think women get a worse deal than men when they don't have kids.  We don't know who will be around to take care of us when we're old. :(

Of course, many people don't do much in the way of taking care of their elderly parents anyway.  So maybe the best bet is to take all of the money that would have been spent on kids and put it in a cushy retirement fund or long-term-care plan.

But then again, I'm just a child-free cynic.

This is a great plan!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on December 25, 2006, 08:18:51 PM
Interesting question.  I imagine motherhood to be a tremendous responsibility...and a huge blessing!  I can think of no greater honor than bringing a new life into the world and then stewarding, nurturing, and protecting it with an unrivaled love.  I can't wait to be a mommy! But first, I've got to find the right husband and father!  ;D
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on December 26, 2006, 11:05:33 AM
What really bugs me is my boyfriend talks about how we have to have kids someday, blah blah blah but he hates being around my sister's kids, and he's even said to me once that people who have kids all seem to be miserable.  Makes no sense to me.

I see your point.  I have also had the privilege of watching some pretty amazing couples and parents in action!   The number one thing I've learned is that childrearing is a selfless act.  Most people who are "miserable" as parents, or as spouses for that matter, are simply those who have not yet understood that placing another's needs ABOVE your own is critical to any truly loving, fulfilling relationship.  To be blunt, most people are too selfish to truly live this way.  Yet when people view relationships as opportunities to love and serve another -- rather than having someone else meet your needs -- then, the relationships become less of a burden and more of the blessings they were always intended to be.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: rugercaptain on January 01, 2007, 07:30:12 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061015/ap_on_bi_ge/paying_for_college;_ylt=AvDIXXByiitz5m2OuAcaO3us0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

man those kids are $$$

No chillens for me...four pugs are enough.   ;D

rugercaptain
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on January 02, 2007, 12:30:00 PM
hehehe

twins-

girl born at 11.58 dec 31
boy born 12 am, jan 1

she is going to hold that over him FOREVER!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: veritas_fl on January 03, 2007, 06:57:03 AM
Why do parents feel compelled to kill themselves so their kids can attend undergraduate college? Why can't kids earn good grades in school and apply for scholarships or loans?

Your child's college education should not be your burden especially when there are ways for them to take care of it themselves.

Besides, they will work harder and appreciate it more.

Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on January 03, 2007, 07:04:30 AM
Why do parents feel compelled to kill themselves so their kids can attend undergraduate college? Why can't kids earn good grades in school and apply for scholarships or loans?

Your child's college education should not be your burden especially when there are ways for them to take care of it themselves.

Besides, they will work harder and appreciate it more.




The bolded is not necessarily true.

That said, my mom didn't want me to have to take out loans for UG--mainly bc I always knew that I'd attend some type of grad school so she didn't want me to have debt on top of debt.  So I never had loans and she paid the EFC.  But my school was need blind, so it wasn't too bad.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Lily Jaye on January 03, 2007, 07:05:14 AM
Why do parents feel compelled to kill themselves so their kids can attend undergraduate college? Why can't kids earn good grades in school and apply for scholarships or loans?

Your child's college education should not be your burden especially when there are ways for them to take care of it themselves.

Besides, they will work harder and appreciate it more.

Wait, didn't I already have a string of posts answering this?  Where the hell did they go?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on January 03, 2007, 07:11:44 AM
Why do parents feel compelled to kill themselves so their kids can attend undergraduate college? Why can't kids earn good grades in school and apply for scholarships or loans?

Your child's college education should not be your burden especially when there are ways for them to take care of it themselves.

Besides, they will work harder and appreciate it more.



I don't think that's really true. Many scholarships are both need and merit based, and students who have parents who can pay but won't will not be eligible for those scholarships/grants. They also won't be eligible for the better loans that what may very well be crippling debt even to attend state schools. The reality of the matter is that even with help, many students cannot pay for it themselves. I had a few friends who had to transfer to schools in their hometown to be able to afford it, but what of parents who won't allow their children to live at home rent-free after they graduate from high school?

Lily, he posted this in another topic. I'm responding again in case other people missed it.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: veritas_fl on January 03, 2007, 07:17:02 AM
Kids can earn good grades or get loans. What is so confusing about this? Or, they can serve in the military for 4 years and get the GI Bill and college fund out of it.

It is not the obligation of parents to pay for their childrens' education.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on January 03, 2007, 07:25:50 AM
not an obligation, no.

but many parents will do it for their kids cause they love them and want the best for them.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Lily Jaye on January 03, 2007, 07:34:33 AM
Kids can earn good grades or get loans. What is so confusing about this? Or, they can serve in the military for 4 years and get the GI Bill and college fund out of it.

It is not the obligation of parents to pay for their childrens' education.

Detailed response here (http://"http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,79198.msg1873261.html#msg1873261").

1.  The federal government maintains otherwise.  Like it or not, it is a parent's obligation to contribute to their child's education after the age of 18, at least if the parents are wealthy enough.

2. Also, good grades are great, but fewer and fewer schools are giving out full tuition + scholarships.  Pretty much the only people who go for it are the NSA and CIA.  Is an education really worth your soul?  (Rhetorically speaking, at least.)   

3. The magnitude of loans required makes retirement, family, and education mutually exclusive to greater or lesser extents. 

4. And your solution is that a person should risk getting killed in order to pay for school?  Yeah, that's great for society.  (Also, I'm pretty sure GI Bill won't cover everything anymore.)

5.  The ultimate problem is that government loan and grant programs function like vouchers.  If you want to make education affordable, you need to go with a different model. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: veritas_fl on January 03, 2007, 07:44:37 AM
3. The magnitude of loans required makes retirement, family, and education mutually exclusive to greater or lesser extents. 

In-state tuition is not that expensive, especially if you work, go to school, and live at home (which I agree with).

4. And your solution is that a person should risk getting killed in order to pay for school?  Yeah, that's great for society.   (Also, I'm pretty sure GI Bill won't cover everything anymore.)

I did my time in the Navy and was just fine.

GI BILL: if you go to school full-time (including summers) you will receive (current rate) $1,075 PER MONTH. This totals about $38,000 which is MORE than enough to cover the in-state tuition at most schools.

All-in-all, while I respect your opinions, I feel they are more excuses for kids to not have to do any work to earn their education.

There is nothing wrong with young people getting jobs and going to school.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on January 03, 2007, 07:45:44 AM
Kids can earn good grades or get loans. What is so confusing about this? Or, they can serve in the military for 4 years and get the GI Bill and college fund out of it.

It is not the obligation of parents to pay for their childrens' education.

Again, since the government expects parents to pay a certain amount toward their children's education, children whose parents CAN pay will not be eligible for the same loans/grants as children whose parents are unable to pay- e.g. Perkins Loans, Pell Grants, and other need-based school grants.

States also vary on what sort of scholarships they offer. I live in FL and if you can get into a university, you'll probably get at least 75% of tuition covered, which helps make tuition affordable. However, it's not a model used in most states.

The GI bill definitely does NOT include everything. I've not met a single person on the GI bill who didn't either work or have another scholarship to supplement what they received.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Lily Jaye on January 03, 2007, 08:05:32 AM
3. The magnitude of loans required makes retirement, family, and education mutually exclusive to greater or lesser extents. 

In-state tuition is not that expensive, especially if you work, go to school, and live at home (which I agree with).

$13k a year isn't that expensive?  With interest, it's over 50k by graduation -- and that's if you're lucky enough to live near a state campus with parents who will let you live at their home for free in your mid-twenties.  (Which may not be the case in more rural areas.)

Quote
4. And your solution is that a person should risk getting killed in order to pay for school?  Yeah, that's great for society.   (Also, I'm pretty sure GI Bill won't cover everything anymore.)

I did my time in the Navy and was just fine.

Yes, but when?  IIRC, today the GI Bill only covers 35-40k.  Which is great if you a) live near a state school, b) your parents are willing to let you live at home without room and board during your mid twenties and c) if your state school is less than 10k a year.  Fewer and fewer people have access to all three simultaneously.

As I understand it, ROTC is a lot worse.

Quote
GI BILL: if you go to school full-time (including summers) you will receive (current rate) $1,075 PER MONTH. This totals about $38,000 which is MORE than enough to cover the in-state tuition at most schools.

Not mine.  Penn State's 13k a year, and not all of the satellite campuses offer full degrees. 

Quote
All-in-all, while I respect your opinions, I feel they are more excuses for kids to not have to do any work to earn their education.

If you feel they're excuses not to do work, you're reading what you want to read.  It's not my argument at all.

Quote
There is nothing wrong with young people getting jobs and going to school.

I'm not saying there is.  What I am saying is that your argument is unrealistic given the modern education structure.  In your world, the only people who would attend school at all are spoiled rich brats. 
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on January 03, 2007, 08:10:08 AM
i think hes referring to in-state for floriduh

but i think were the 2nd or 3rd cheapest for in-state in the country.  maybe 5-6k for the yr for tuition...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Lily Jaye on January 03, 2007, 08:11:26 AM
i think hes referring to in-state for floriduh

but i think were the 2nd or 3rd cheapest for in-state in the country.  maybe 5-6k for the yr for tuition...

 :o :o :o :o

I'd sell my firstborn for 5k.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: veritas_fl on January 03, 2007, 08:11:39 AM
The GI bill definitely does NOT include everything. I've not met a single person on the GI bill who didn't either work or have another scholarship to supplement what they received.

Well, I am one of them. I received a total of $37,500 from my GI BILL. Yearly in-state tuition plus books at my school for a full-time course load is $6,000.

You do the math.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on January 03, 2007, 08:14:36 AM
i think hes referring to in-state for floriduh

but i think were the 2nd or 3rd cheapest for in-state in the country.  maybe 5-6k for the yr for tuition...

Tuition is cheap, but if you go to an urban commuter school (where you're more likely to be able to find a job with decent pay), the living expenses are killer. One of my friends in UG now has a bright futures scholarship, but the GI bill is still not enough to cover his living expenses.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: veritas_fl on January 03, 2007, 08:15:27 AM
In your world, the only people who would attend school at all are spoiled rich brats. 

Not true... I am not a spoiled rich brat and nor were my spouse or their siblings. Their parents could not afford to pay for school so they had to get good grades, stay in-state, work their way through college, and apply for every scholarship under the sun.

Does FAFSA not cover UG college?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: veritas_fl on January 03, 2007, 08:17:56 AM
Tuition is cheap, but if you go to an urban commuter school (where you're more likely to be able to find a job with decent pay), the living expenses are killer. One of my friends in UG now has a bright futures scholarship, but the GI bill is still not enough to cover his living expenses.

Does he not have a job? I work full-time and attend full-time at night. it is no picnic but is certainly doable.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on January 03, 2007, 08:19:07 AM
Tuition is cheap, but if you go to an urban commuter school (where you're more likely to be able to find a job with decent pay), the living expenses are killer. One of my friends in UG now has a bright futures scholarship, but the GI bill is still not enough to cover his living expenses.

Does he not have a job? I work full-time and attend full-time at night. it is no picnic but is certainly doable.

Yes, he has a part-time job that pays quite well, but he's also pre-med so his grades will suffer if he works FT. He also does not want to take out loans because he's going to have to take out a shitload for med school.

In addition, you have to include your parents' information in the FAFSA if you're under a certain age in UG. If your parents make a decent amount, your EFC will be high and it will disqualify you from certain grants, loans, and possibly work-study. If your parents honestly cannot afford school, then their EFC will be low and you will qualify for those grants and lower-interest loans. I don't know what about this is so hard for you to grasp. Most of these loans/grants are there to help students who could not otherwise attend college because their parents cannot afford it. Those loans/grants are not there to help parents who choose not to contribute their EFC because they'd rather use the money on something else.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: veritas_fl on January 03, 2007, 08:36:37 AM
Yes, he has a part-time job that pays quite well, but he's also pre-med so his grades will suffer if he works FT. He also does not want to take out loans because he's going to have to take out a shitload for med school.

So he does have the option of taking out loans.. If he is pre-med, he can defer ALL of his loans until he is done with ALL of his schooling. This includes 4 years of UG and 4 years of med-school. Once he is a practicing MD, he will be able to afford the loan payments.

I do not know his speciality, but there are places in Missouri offering $600,000 per year for OB/Gyns (I have a friend in med school).
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on January 03, 2007, 08:39:44 AM
Yes, he has a part-time job that pays quite well, but he's also pre-med so his grades will suffer if he works FT. He also does not want to take out loans because he's going to have to take out a shitload for med school.

So he does have the option of taking out loans.. If he is pre-med, he can defer ALL of his loans until he is done with ALL of his schooling. This includes 4 years of UG and 4 years of med-school. Once he is a practicing MD, he will be able to afford the loan payments.

I do not know his speciality, but there are places in Missouri offering $600,000 per year for OB/Gyns (I have a friend in med school).

That sounds all well and good, but last time I looked, the physicians who make the higher pay spend quite a bit of time doing internships, residencies and fellowships, and if you're starting med school in your late 20s, that means you may not be able to start paying back the loans until you're in your mid- to late 30s.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: veritas_fl on January 03, 2007, 08:42:12 AM
That sounds all well and good, but last time I looked, the physicians who make the higher pay spend quite a bit of time doing internships, residencies and fellowships, and if you're starting med school in your late 20s, that means you may not be able to start paying back the loans until you're in your mid- to late 30s.

That's correct. Most people who start UG at 18 and who want to be MD's will not be practicing until they are about 30 anyways (UG, Med School, Residency, Specialties, etc.).
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on January 04, 2007, 09:22:09 AM
they said a bunch of thngs.

whatcha referring too?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on February 08, 2007, 07:12:48 AM
Read b4 you breed...

Born to be bad? Genetic research says maybe
Argumentative parents pass on behavior problems to kids
Updated: 3:15 p.m. ET Feb 7, 2007

If some children seem like they were born to be bad, new research suggests it may be true.

In a study of adult twins and their children, researchers found that genes, rather than parents' own argumentative behavior, seemed key in the children's odds of serious conduct problems — like bullying, skipping school and shoplifting.

The findings, published in the journal Child Development, touch on the classic nature-versus-nurture question.
Story continues below ↓ advertisement

In the case of child behavior, research has linked parents' marital conflicts to long-term, serious conduct problems in their children. However, it has been unclear whether that means that marital woes themselves cause the behavioral problems.

The new findings suggest it's more a matter of genes. That is, parents who are naturally argumentative pass on these traits to their kids.

"Marital conflict doesn't appear, in this study, to cause stable patterns of conduct disorder," explained lead study author K. Paige Harden of the University of Virginia in Charlottesville.

"Rather, marital conflict is influenced by parents' own characteristics — including their genes —and these genes are passed on to children," she told Reuters Health.

Harden and her colleagues arrived at their conclusions by studying 1,045 adult twins and their children. Some of the twin pairs were identical, which means they shared all of their genes; the rest were fraternal, meaning they shared only some of their genes.

Such studies allow researchers to tease out the effects of genes and environment on a given behavior.

In this case, Harden's team found that genetic influences were important in parents' marital conflicts, and genes, in turn, explained the link between marital discord and children's conduct problems.

No 'argument' gene
There may be no "argument" gene, but genes do influence personality traits, including those that make people more or less prone to confrontation.


According to Harden, it's possible that genes involved in risk-taking, sensation-seeking and other aspects of antisocial behavior may make parents more likely to clash, and, when passed on to their kids, make conduct problems more likely.

However, the researchers stress, none of this means that fights between parents do no harm to children.

Even if genes are more important in long-term, serious behavioral problems, parents' conflicts do distress their kids, explained Dr. Robert E. Emery, a professor of psychology at the University of Virginia and a co-author on the study.

The study "does not mean that children are unaffected by parents' disputes," he told Reuters Health.

"Think about how you feel when friends, a couple you know, start fighting. Now make them your parents, you're six, and they're screaming about moving out. Parental conflicts definitely are not healthy for children."
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ADL on February 08, 2007, 07:16:16 AM
for those of us that dont want kids and there is an "accident", what r ur plans?
are you "choosing" not to have kids...apparently to Highway, it's not a choice, it means that you couldn't find anyone to have kids with.   :D

i do not want them at all, but accidents happen.

and as a guy, i dont even have any real options until the girl tells me what her palns are.
what about a vasectomy?  that's a good option for you.  then you won't have to worry about accidents or the girl's plans.  think about it.  i heard that it's a very safe procedure & the men that i know who have had it done said that it was one of the best decisions they ever made. granted it's only 2 men.
hey blue,  have you looked into to this yet?
it's definitely something to consider.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on February 08, 2007, 07:20:08 AM
it is, just havnt had the time yet...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: mrsdclare on March 26, 2007, 01:53:54 PM
No kids here, ever.   ;D My husband just got a vasectomy.  We had to wait until he was 25 which was kind of irritating.  There are serious genetic issues in his family that he had a big chance of passing on to children, so we opted not to have kids but doctor after doctor told him he had to wait until he was 25.  You wouldnt believe the things they say to you either-- well what if you were to divorce (said to me when I asked for an IUD).  I understand them being thorough to protect themselves, however it is far easier to terminate a pregnancy than to prevent it.   ???
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: natalunia on March 26, 2007, 06:04:40 PM
I originally did not want to have kids. My ex husband was awful with little ones. My current hubby is great with kids and once I saw him interact with them it made me want them. However, I am scared to death of being pregnant (injuries from a bad car accident 4 years ago left me with permanent injuries that will make a pregnancy extra painful), so we adopted a toddler (no poopie diapers or losing sleep with a toddler!) until I can get over the pregnancy fear thing. My husband was 40 (never married/no kids) when we married (I was 25, had been married before, but no kids). He had been practicing law for 11 years when we got hitched. My point is, don't assume you'll feel the same way about it 10 or 15 years from now, and there will be women out there who don't have kids and will be okay with whether you want them or not. I will be honest and say parenting is by far the hardest (emotionally, physically, and financially) thing I have ever done. Parenting is NOT for everyone, and is not always fun. It's hard work.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: LegalMatters on March 27, 2007, 10:13:44 AM
LOL - Has anyone read "Law v. Life"? There's an entire section devoted to how kids in dysfunctional families acquired the right skill set from day one, i.e. how to keep secrets without feeling guilty. I'm pretty sure I learned how to be argumentative from my parents.

And I just scanned the back pages for this thread...omg.

Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: rugercaptain on March 28, 2007, 11:35:31 AM
No little ones for me.  Still have all the parts for reproducing, but never even remotely considered having children.  Dirty little secret...I hate kids.  >:(
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: LegalMatters on March 29, 2007, 10:57:59 AM
My boyfriend's parents and mine have both said that if you wait until you're financially ready to have kids, you'll never have them. My mother always added that it's much more important to be emotionally ready for children. I know that's not the case for everyone but it always sounded like solid advice.

The long and the short of it is there's nothing wrong with people who don't want to have children and those who do. The argument I hear the most from people who don't want kids, aka Kid Haters, is that some people with children tend to make a misbehaving child everyone's problem. You're sitting in a restaurant and someone's kid from the next table crawls under yours, for example. The parent sees the kid and says nothing but whoa to you if you have the audacity to speak to their child and tell them to get out from under your table. If I'm at Disney World, I'm not expecting it to be a child-free zone. It's for kids, for Chrissakes. I get a kick out of watching little ones run up and give Goofy a hug. But if I'm at a movie theater and someone's kid starts screaming, there's no reason why everyone has to deal with it.

And I don't think that makes me a kid hater. I like children and plan to someday have a few of my own.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: rugercaptain on March 29, 2007, 06:14:25 PM
Embrace the hatred (http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d120/Caneschica222/Tars%20and%20other%20pics/?action=view&current=owned28.flv)

Thank you, I think I will.   ;)

I believe my loathing of children comes from my father--he didn't seem very fond of me or my sister.  He even told me (many times) that children weren't worth a damn until they could get a job and move out of the house.   :-\

As a rookie firefighter, the worst part of my job was giving fire station tours to the kids.  Gawd, I HATED it.  Today I just hide in my office when the brats come through the place during October.  At least as a battalion chief I can order others to give the kiddie tours.   :D  

At least I had enough sense not to have any and poison them with my hatred.  Unfortunately, there are breeders out there who have children they don't really want and treat them like crap.  
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jillibean on March 29, 2007, 06:17:12 PM
I plan on having 3-4 kids and then adopting one all by the time I'm 32. I can do it
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on March 29, 2007, 06:34:21 PM
I plan on having 3-4 kids and then adopting one all by the time I'm 32. I can do it


 :o :o :o :o

jillibean husband

honey, would you like me to lick you some more?

honey, would you like me to lick you some more?
honey, would you like me to lick you some more?






























ummm, its an echo.   duh  :P
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: jillibean on March 29, 2007, 06:35:49 PM
I plan on having 3-4 kids and then adopting one all by the time I'm 32. I can do it


 :o :o :o :o

jillibean husband

honey, would you like me to lick you some more?

honey, would you like me to lick you some more?
honey, would you like me to lick you some more?






























ummm, its an echo.   duh  :P

He can handle it- plus he has some weird thing for pregnant women so...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Ranx on April 04, 2007, 10:16:53 PM
I enjoyed raising children. My girls have turned out to be very intelligent and well adjusted women.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: GwenK on April 05, 2007, 04:18:33 AM
I would have to say that in my 20's I was a kid hater for sure!!! As I've had more nieces and nephews enter the family and now that friends have a troop of kids, I've mellowed a bit. Now, mid-30's and crossing the hump to "closer to 40" my husband and I are re-considering. We have come to the conclusion that it's the kids that suck, it's stupid parents who don't bother with discipline, rules and manners. Friends and family who do believe in those things, and I'm not talking anything drastic, but those kids are much better - well-behaved, respectful, etc. Sure, they're still kids, but they are much more pleasing to be around than the snot-nosed punks whose parents are idiots.

We're still not sure and I think we'd be fine either way at this point. But, first and foremost, is LS. Then, we'll see.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: flyaway on April 05, 2007, 04:51:32 AM
We went to a funeral a couple days ago, and there were so many pregnant women there, including all three of the ones in our little group of friends, that it made us think.  Especially because of some touching eulogy moments about the importance of family.  But we're not ready to jump on the kids bandwagon yet.  We'll think some more, and maybe when I'm a 3L...

There are some nice pros, but there are so many such intense cons!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on May 16, 2007, 06:21:19 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/05/16/baby.drop.ap/index.html


someone that prob should not have been a father...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: natalunia on May 16, 2007, 09:37:47 AM
Yo da Blue, I got one even better... this guys should be put in a microwave.  >:(

http://www.kbtv4.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=14689
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on May 16, 2007, 10:37:45 AM
Yo da Blue, I got one even better... this guys should be put in a microwave.  >:(

http://www.kbtv4.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=14689

some sicko lady in Houston decided to cut off her baby boys (few weeks old) genitals.

he is ruined for life...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on June 07, 2007, 06:47:45 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17937795/

this might settle the problem for some of us  :)
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: flyaway on June 07, 2007, 07:05:56 AM
Yeah, I'm still confused. :/

I want a kid to take to Disney World.  The rest of the time... dunno.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on June 07, 2007, 07:20:30 AM
Yeah, I'm still confused. :/

I want a kid to take to Disney World.  The rest of the time... dunno.

borrow a siblings...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: flyaway on June 07, 2007, 07:30:12 AM
Yeah, I'm still confused. :/

I want a kid to take to Disney World.  The rest of the time... dunno.

borrow a siblings...

Yeah, I do that sometimes. :)  I have an EXTREMELY cute niece and nephew whom I've been to WDW and Disneyland with.  Also, we are trying to pin down my husband's best friend as to when they will let us go to WDW with them and their two cute tiny girls.

We stayed with them a couple nights recently, and the older one cried when I left. :( but :) at the same time for me.  She's a really shy kid, but apparently I rank up higher than everyone but her parents and one aunt for her.

I love the fun, cute times with kids, but I also like doing whatever the hell I want to do whenever the hell I want to do it and not having to worry 95% of the time about someone else's needs.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on June 07, 2007, 07:33:26 AM
Yeah, I'm still confused. :/

I want a kid to take to Disney World.  The rest of the time... dunno.

borrow a siblings...

Yeah, I do that sometimes. :)  I have an EXTREMELY cute niece and nephew whom I've been to WDW and Disneyland with.  Also, we are trying to pin down my husband's best friend as to when they will let us go to WDW with them and their two cute tiny girls.

We stayed with them a couple nights recently, and the older one cried when I left. :( but :) at the same time for me.  She's a really shy kid, but apparently I rank up higher than everyone but her parents and one aunt for her.

I love the fun, cute times with kids, but I also like doing whatever the hell I want to do whenever the hell I want to do it and not having to worry 95% of the time about someone else's needs.

seems like you need to encourage your freinds to have lots of kids then, and you can just borrow them...
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: pikey on June 07, 2007, 09:53:46 AM
Yeah, I'm still confused. :/

I want a kid to take to Disney World.  The rest of the time... dunno.

borrow a siblings...

Yeah, I do that sometimes. :)  I have an EXTREMELY cute niece and nephew whom I've been to WDW and Disneyland with.  Also, we are trying to pin down my husband's best friend as to when they will let us go to WDW with them and their two cute tiny girls.

We stayed with them a couple nights recently, and the older one cried when I left. :( but :) at the same time for me.  She's a really shy kid, but apparently I rank up higher than everyone but her parents and one aunt for her.

I love the fun, cute times with kids, but I also like doing whatever the hell I want to do whenever the hell I want to do it and not having to worry 95% of the time about someone else's needs.

Me too.  I want kids someday, but right now I'm enjoying being young and selfish.  I sometimes get annoyed when I have to consider the dog's needs!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on June 13, 2007, 05:46:45 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20070613/cm_usatoday/alawyersguidetofatherhood;_ylt=AsUeVOl605uz81gqGYNf3IjMWM0F

 A lawyer's guide to fatherhood

By Jonathan Turley1 hour, 34 minutes ago

Fatherhood is the one job that you can get without the slightest degree of experience, knowledge or talent (despite what you may hear to the contrary on Father's Day). For that reason, when a friend had his first child recently, I quickly rattled off the most important things that I have learned as the father of three boys and a girl: Don't wear white shirts while changing boys (they consider it a type of canvas); the easiest way to extract material from noses is a hot bath (except for cheese sticks); always check your briefcase for toy guns before entering a courthouse; and always check the children for captive animals before leaving a forest.

But the most important lesson is that all children are born with an innate sense of the law. Indeed, when the Framers spoke of natural rights, they might have hit on the same discovery in their own children. You can actually track your kids' development by the legal arguments they make. Take it from me, the best way to prepare for parenting is to take a law course at your community college.

Takings. The Constitution prohibits the taking of property without compensation by the government. Within their first two years, all children embrace this principle with a vengeance. Parents learn they must compensate for any item removed: a toy for the car keys; a cracker for the 12-inch butcher knife.

Contracts. By 3, negotiating with kids is like working with little Teamsters on a labor contract. Bring a sandwich truck to the site; it becomes part of the contract. Likewise, once a parent buys a scone at Starbucks or allows cartoons in the morning, it is part of an unwritten but enforceable contract. This develops into a form of collective bargaining with the addition of another sibling: Any benefit to one is instantly an expected benefit to the other. Break the contract and you'll face work stoppages, unending protests and even sabotage that ranges from spilled milk to items in the trash can.

Cruel and unusual punishment. By 3, children have defined what they view as cruel and unusual punishment. Denials of favorite foods or toys are considered to be measures that "shock the conscience" and require immediate redress.

Privacy. As soon as a child goes through potty training, privacy becomes an increasingly important right - reaching its apex in the teen years. The same parents who spent two years changing them and bathing them must now sequester themselves in a distant room to avoid the "chilling effect" of surveillance.

Equal protection. By 6, all children put themselves in what the Supreme Court calls "a suspect class" - any different treatment based on their identity as a sibling can be enforced only after parents show a compelling reason that they are using "the least restrictive means." Otherwise, a difference of only 10 minutes in television time is enough to unleash demonstrations reminiscent of the march on Selma.

Due process. By 6, kids will insist on full due process in adjudicating their claims. Major penalties such as loss of Game Boys require something close to a full trial with two days of arraignment, jury selection and sequestration - and inexhaustible appeals.

Free speech. By 10, children have developed an almost unlimited expectation of free speech. Indeed, since they have now concluded that your views are worthless and out of date, it increases the necessity of your listening to them. Parents are forced to change their content-based regulations from the toddler years to "time, place and manner" restrictions for teens.

Free association. When you object to a boyfriend with more body-pierced metal than a tank, your child will discover the right to association. With the acquisition of a learner's permit, she will add a claim of free travel (which also involves your car).

The final years of adolescence are filled with conflicts over search-and-seizure rules and the monitoring of electronic communications without probable cause. Of course, by the time your child reaches the late teenage years, you have become the Alberto Gonzales of parents: continual surveillance, spontaneous searches, detention without appeal. You can then wait for your little litigators to become parents in their own right. It is then that you can undermine their authority by plying their children with unlimited sugar-based products and allowing them to live as anarchists under your roof. Your children will then learn the meaning of James Madison's observation that "if men were angels, no government would be necessary."


see?  see!!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: wellpreserved on June 24, 2007, 11:48:50 AM
Quote
Privacy. As soon as a child goes through potty training, privacy becomes an increasingly important right - reaching its apex in the teen years. The same parents who spent two years changing them and bathing them must now sequester themselves in a distant room to avoid the "chilling effect" of surveillance.

Equal protection. By 6, all children put themselves in what the Supreme Court calls "a suspect class" - any different treatment based on their identity as a sibling can be enforced only after parents show a compelling reason that they are using "the least restrictive means." Otherwise, a difference of only 10 minutes in television time is enough to unleash demonstrations reminiscent of the march on Selma.

Due process. By 6, kids will insist on full due process in adjudicating their claims. Major penalties such as loss of Game Boys require something close to a full trial with two days of arraignment, jury selection and sequestration - and inexhaustible appeals.

Free speech. By 10, children have developed an almost unlimited expectation of free speech. Indeed, since they have now concluded that your views are worthless and out of date, it increases the necessity of your listening to them. Parents are forced to change their content-based regulations from the toddler years to "time, place and manner" restrictions for teens.

Free association. When you object to a boyfriend with more body-pierced metal than a tank, your child will discover the right to association. With the acquisition of a learner's permit, she will add a claim of free travel (which also involves your car).

As cute and well written as this was I have to say that children with an expectation of privacy, free speech, and free association is a menace to civil society. I agree with an earlier poster - its not kids I have a problem with but "parents" who think privledge is a right and raise entitled bastard hounds who think they can scream/spit/hit adults without consequence.

Want I want to see are the rules of law enforcement, rehabilitation and justice brought to mind on the issue of child rearing. In the south we called it "getting one's azz tore up". Today, I think that would be considered "juvie" but whatever, you lived to talk about it, had funnies to share with peers and you never, ever, ever got caught on you tube cursing your mother like a drunken sailor in the grocery store.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: The Poster on June 24, 2007, 12:32:55 PM
Didn't I start a thread like this once already?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: «ě» on June 24, 2007, 02:10:39 PM
I'm kinda in the "I don't really need kids, but I'd give in if the mummy was hot enough". I kinda doubt kids are in my future, I don't have the maturity nor the dreams of making a 'nuclear family'. Still, I'm not opposed to it to such a disagree I wouldn't even consider it if that situation should arise. However, I feel quite strongly about adoption. There's so many kids needing good parents, and I really don't believe DNA is relevant to being a family, so if it ever came to happen, I'd be quite persistent about adopting one.

Still, I think my future involved me being married to the job, not a woman - and frequently hitting on 23 year old paralegals instead of appropriate potential significant others.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: GwenK on June 27, 2007, 05:36:38 AM
OMG, just thinking about even going to Walt Disney World, Disney Land or any other theme park makes me want to buy a lifetime supply of condoms, sponges and every other form of birth control known to woman and man. It doesn't matter that I'm married, the thought of spending that much time in a place where kids are literally screaming, whining, crying, throwing tantrums and God knows what - simply gives me the shakes. And, somehow, parents this behavior is OK? Granted, I have no kids so I can judge! (Stepping off soapbox now.)

I'm going to crawl into my safe place now and wait this episode out!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: simonsays on June 27, 2007, 05:08:51 PM

kids help you grow and develop as an individual.  so it's one of the few moral responsibilities one makes in life.  if it weren't for my kid, id be breaking into the neighbors house, stealing their tv and eating their food.

Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: queencruella on June 27, 2007, 05:56:45 PM

kids help you grow and develop as an individual.  so it's one of the few moral responsibilities one makes in life.  if it weren't for my kid, id be breaking into the neighbors house, stealing their tv and eating their food.



Some people grow and develop as an individual in other ways. I think I'm plenty mature enough to have kids; I just don't want any.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on June 28, 2007, 08:46:48 AM
http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/local_columnists/article/0,2845,MCA_25341_5606007,00.html


>:D

that will teach those kids!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Highway on June 28, 2007, 09:13:15 AM
http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/local_columnists/article/0,2845,MCA_25341_5606007,00.html


>:D

that will teach those kids!

That was great! I'll have to remember that for when my kids are teenagers! Of course, I also have all the pictures of them sitting naked on the training potty that I can pull out to show their friends if necessary!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on July 02, 2007, 05:43:50 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070701/ap_on_re_us/marriage_survey



The Pew Research Center survey on marriage and parenting found that children had fallen to eighth out of nine on a list of factors that people associate with successful marriages — well behind "women doing household chores," "good housing," "adequate income," a "happy sexual relationship" and " a wifes faithfulness."

The survey also found that, by a margin of nearly 3-to-1, Americans say the main purpose of marriage is the "mutual happiness and fulfillment" of adults rather than the "bearing and raising of children."
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Lily Jaye on July 03, 2007, 04:54:13 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070701/ap_on_re_us/marriage_survey



The Pew Research Center survey on marriage and parenting found that children had fallen to eighth out of nine on a list of factors that people associate with successful marriages — well behind "women doing household chores," "good housing," "adequate income," a "happy sexual relationship" and " a wifes faithfulness."

The survey also found that, by a margin of nearly 3-to-1, Americans say the main purpose of marriage is the "mutual happiness and fulfillment" of adults rather than the "bearing and raising of children."

If you're surprised by this, it's probably because you don't know enough people with children.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: naturallybeyoutiful on July 04, 2007, 06:20:14 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070701/ap_on_re_us/marriage_survey



The Pew Research Center survey on marriage and parenting found that children had fallen to eighth out of nine on a list of factors that people associate with successful marriages — well behind "women doing household chores," "good housing," "adequate income," a "happy sexual relationship" and " a wifes faithfulness."

The survey also found that, by a margin of nearly 3-to-1, Americans say the main purpose of marriage is the "mutual happiness and fulfillment" of adults rather than the "bearing and raising of children."

I was smh when I heard this report.  I do think it's a step in the wrong direction.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: Lily Jaye on July 07, 2007, 08:00:18 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070701/ap_on_re_us/marriage_survey



The Pew Research Center survey on marriage and parenting found that children had fallen to eighth out of nine on a list of factors that people associate with successful marriages — well behind "women doing household chores," "good housing," "adequate income," a "happy sexual relationship" and " a wifes faithfulness."

The survey also found that, by a margin of nearly 3-to-1, Americans say the main purpose of marriage is the "mutual happiness and fulfillment" of adults rather than the "bearing and raising of children."

I was smh when I heard this report.  I do think it's a step in the wrong direction.

smh?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: simonsays on July 07, 2007, 02:08:14 PM

i smell a flawed survey.


Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on July 07, 2007, 04:21:42 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070701/ap_on_re_us/marriage_survey



The Pew Research Center survey on marriage and parenting found that children had fallen to eighth out of nine on a list of factors that people associate with successful marriages — well behind "women doing household chores," "good housing," "adequate income," a "happy sexual relationship" and " a wifes faithfulness."

The survey also found that, by a margin of nearly 3-to-1, Americans say the main purpose of marriage is the "mutual happiness and fulfillment" of adults rather than the "bearing and raising of children."

I was smh when I heard this report.  I do think it's a step in the wrong direction.

smh?

shaking my head.


i know, it annoys me too
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on July 13, 2007, 05:36:03 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070712/sc_livescience/surveymomstiredofworking;_ylt=AhC9DxjSJUk3hQOg6_rQwfrMWM0F

Survey: Moms Tired of Working



whiners.....


 :P
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: LSATdestroyer on July 14, 2007, 11:08:48 PM
Sorry to hear you make nothing. I am a petroleum engineer, have been working for just 3 years for a major oil company and earn a salary of 102,000 before bonus. I also only work 40 hrs a week and nothing more, with every other friday off. Chemical and petroleum engineers are being hired between 65-72 grand out of college. Thats with benefits and excluding sign bonus ranging from 2 to 8 grand. Soooo, i do agree that most engineers top out around 180g's  with 20 yrs experience at major corporations, but to say they don't make anything is incorrect. Gov't jobs and aerospace/defense do pay very low, but  there are industry's that pay pretty well.

Considering some kid comes out of law school and maybe makes biglaw and earns 140,000  by working even 50 hrs a week he/she is only earning ~$46 an hour. Thats the same per hour as an engineer making 90,000 a year and working 40 hrs a week.


And I disagree about the communication issue when it comes to engineers. Engineers who work at the best companies are some of the smartest people in the world who can explain complex technical concepts very well, understand economics better than a finance major and present this information well. I've met people who cannot communicate in every profession so to say most engineers who have no personal skills is wrong.

To make the most in engineering takes the same effort as making the most in law, graduate with a 3.5gpa in engineering (which is not easy!) and be able to interact well with people and you can make big money with little debt.

Material things? My father is an engineer and I went to a private college and drove a new beamer so I dont know what you mean by that.

Sounds like you earned a low gpa in engineering, got stuck with some crappy contractor firm or company and now are screwed.


I leave you with a parting thought: you people are the reason that America is becoming less and less competitive in the global economy.  Because too many people put baseball over education, and have soft targets for "happiness", rather than hard targets for success.  Take it at what it's worth.  I hope this country turns that around soon.  Because at this rate, we're screwed if we keep turning out aimless liberal arts majors (lawyers and some professionals excluded), while India and China produce 450k engineers every year.  Not saying my attitude of not having children is any better, but it's much less prevalent than your attitude which has already led to serious problems in Europe.

You are truly an idiot.  Move to Japan. 

Any idea what engineers make????  I can tell you since I am one - NOTHING.  If money and material things (or what you call "the basics") are so important to you, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you will not personally be pushing your children towards engineering.  I have also never been required since college to use anything from calculus other than the basics of integrals.  I'll also add that most of the engineers I know can not move ahead in their profession because they have ZERO personal and communication skills...in case you don't know, those are crucial.

Likewise - love your comments :)
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: «ě» on July 15, 2007, 05:52:34 AM
Considering some kid comes out of law school and maybe makes biglaw and earns 140,000  by working even 50 hrs a week he/she is only earning ~$46 an hour. Thats the same per hour as an engineer making 90,000 a year and working 40 hrs a week.
First of all, salary per hour really isn't relevant. The 1.5 hours extra you spend each day is negligible, and most of us actually don't distribute our spare time on working days that detailed. It makes little difference. Secondly, the kid going to Big Law will actually be making 200,000 ($160k base + $40k bonus NYC standard 2007). Secondly, he will increase his salary by $20k-$40k every year as an associate, and multiply it after 7-8 years reaching partnership. There's no engineering job at all that keeps up with that.


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And I disagree about the communication issue when it comes to engineers. Engineers who work at the best companies are some of the smartest people in the world who can explain complex technical concepts very well, understand economics better than a finance major and present this information well. I've met people who cannot communicate in every profession so to say most engineers who have no personal skills is wrong.
No, they're really not mate. That being said, neither are Big Law lawyers. Nor am I. The smartest people in the world don't do corporate cubicle employment.

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To make the most in engineering takes the same effort as making the most in law, graduate with a 3.5gpa in engineering (which is not easy!) and be able to interact well with people and you can make big money with little debt.
Now this I wholly agree with, and something that keeps annoying me on this board. It seems people think law is the only business it's difficult to succeed in. That's just ridiculous. To be successful, you have to be one of the best - regardless of what your education or business is.

Quote from: Someone else I dont remember
Not saying my attitude of not having children is any better, but it's much less prevalent than your attitude which has already led to serious problems in Europe.
Problems in Europe? Which problems? Europe is going exceptionally well these days.

Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: m, on July 15, 2007, 04:32:16 PM
I say we make like the Irish and eat the babies
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: LSATdestroyer on July 16, 2007, 05:46:10 PM
it's totally releveant you idiot. You obviously are some kid who doesnt know what putting in 60 real hours of work a week on a multi million dollar project means (here comes some summer internship where he worked 100 hrs a week ahaha) . How much you make per hour is the most relevant of all things because as you shall find out, it's balancing your personal time with your work thats the toughest thing americans face. And if you would use a cost of living calculator, 90,000 dollars in houston is the equivalent to 210,000 in good old ny,ny buddy.  So once again, 90,000/40 hrs per week will give you the same per hour rate. I never mentioned the bonus one recieves for either profession and keep in mind that is based on you billing 2000hours, requiring at least 3200 hours of real work. And you better believe that that extra 1.5 hours a day takes a toll on you at the end of the week. The difference between 40 to 50 or 40 to 60 hours per week is a BIG ONE.  But hey, what does it matter, you probably have no life anyway so enjoy!   And just so you know, with no debt and earning 100,000/year after three years of work you are essentially in better shape than the vandy grad 150gs in debt with the big law job. If the engineer wants to get a law degree and do IP he can and will make more than you anyway. Many people at the top of their law schools are engineers anyway, they tend to do very well.

Good luck kid, you'll need it.







Considering some kid comes out of law school and maybe makes biglaw and earns 140,000  by working even 50 hrs a week he/she is only earning ~$46 an hour. Thats the same per hour as an engineer making 90,000 a year and working 40 hrs a week.
First of all, salary per hour really isn't relevant. The 1.5 hours extra you spend each day is negligible, and most of us actually don't distribute our spare time on working days that detailed. It makes little difference. Secondly, the kid going to Big Law will actually be making 200,000 ($160k base + $40k bonus NYC standard 2007). Secondly, he will increase his salary by $20k-$40k every year as an associate, and multiply it after 7-8 years reaching partnership. There's no engineering job at all that keeps up with that.


Quote
And I disagree about the communication issue when it comes to engineers. Engineers who work at the best companies are some of the smartest people in the world who can explain complex technical concepts very well, understand economics better than a finance major and present this information well. I've met people who cannot communicate in every profession so to say most engineers who have no personal skills is wrong.
No, they're really not mate. That being said, neither are Big Law lawyers. Nor am I. The smartest people in the world don't do corporate cubicle employment.

Quote
To make the most in engineering takes the same effort as making the most in law, graduate with a 3.5gpa in engineering (which is not easy!) and be able to interact well with people and you can make big money with little debt.
Now this I wholly agree with, and something that keeps annoying me on this board. It seems people think law is the only business it's difficult to succeed in. That's just ridiculous. To be successful, you have to be one of the best - regardless of what your education or business is.

Quote from: Someone else I dont remember
Not saying my attitude of not having children is any better, but it's much less prevalent than your attitude which has already led to serious problems in Europe.
Problems in Europe? Which problems? Europe is going exceptionally well these days.


Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: simonsays on July 16, 2007, 08:03:21 PM
Considering some kid comes out of law school and maybe makes biglaw and earns 140,000  by working even 50 hrs a week he/she is only earning ~$46 an hour. Thats the same per hour as an engineer making 90,000 a year and working 40 hrs a week.
First of all, salary per hour really isn't relevant. The 1.5 hours extra you spend each day is negligible, and most of us actually don't distribute our spare time on working days that detailed. It makes little difference. Secondly, the kid going to Big Law will actually be making 200,000 ($160k base + $40k bonus NYC standard 2007). Secondly, he will increase his salary by $20k-$40k every year as an associate, and multiply it after 7-8 years reaching partnership. There's no engineering job at all that keeps up with that.



I'd kill for 1.5 hours of free time a day.  BigLaw isn't comparable to engineering as a whole. You can easily extract the subset of engineers doing quant work in Manhattan making   more than your selected subset.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: «ě» on July 17, 2007, 05:02:24 AM
it's totally releveant you idiot. You obviously are some kid who doesnt know what putting in 60 real hours of work a week on a multi million dollar project means (here comes some summer internship where he worked 100 hrs a week ahaha)
Actually here comes the I started and ran a multimillion dollar company myself, from the age of 18. I've worked 100 hour weeks for several years. Good f-ing going though, Sherlock.

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How much you make per hour is the most relevant of all things because as you shall find out, it's balancing your personal time with your work thats the toughest thing americans face.
Partially true. Still, I can assure you pretty much everyone would prefer to put in another 1.5 hours on average per day in exchange for another week of vacation. Simply because small amounts of time saved up per day are less usable than a larger chunk of time saved up where you can travel. Not that Americans in general travel, but the idea is good.

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And if you would use a cost of living calculator, 90,000 dollars in houston is the equivalent to 210,000 in good old ny,ny buddy.
So f-ing what? How happy would a New York type of person be in Houston? Not very. Hey, know what, if you live in a trailer parked in the middle of f-ing Arkansas those 210,000 translate to about $50. Maybe that's the secret to being happy!

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So once again, 90,000/40 hrs per week will give you the same per hour rate. I never mentioned the bonus one recieves for either profession and keep in mind that is based on you billing 2000hours, requiring at least 3200 hours of real work. And you better believe that that extra 1.5 hours a day takes a toll on you at the end of the week. The difference between 40 to 50 or 40 to 60 hours per week is a BIG ONE.
Yes, in the context of business it's the difference between those who win and those who lose. I know what category I got you pegged down in.

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But hey, what does it matter, you probably have no life anyway so enjoy!   And just so you know, with no debt and earning 100,000/year after three years of work you are essentially in better shape than the vandy grad 150gs in debt with the big law job. If the engineer wants to get a law degree and do IP he can and will make more than you anyway. Many people at the top of their law schools are engineers anyway, they tend to do very well.
Actually, the engineering JD will make the exact same lock step pay as I do. He will probably have a little easier time getting a good job from a weaker school, but good thing I'm not going to a weak school then.

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Good luck kid, you'll need it.
Yeah, I wish I knew how to succeed in business, I was just a self-made millionaire by 25. Please good Sir, teach me the magic formula of success? I mean, other than taking a *&^% job in a *&^% city because it's cheap to live there. I don't really like that formula.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: LSATdestroyer on July 17, 2007, 12:07:28 PM
yea millionares post on lsd and argue about big law salaries. U run a multimillion dollar business yet want to go to law school and are in here talking about salary hahaa also, pointing out the salary vs cost of living is done for people to undertand that 90 grand in the south is 200 grand up in ny not for any other purpose you dumbass. Its not used to check how much more someone wants to live in a certain city, it shows that a 90g salary affords the same lifestyle. Got it million dollar dumbass? 
 

Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: «ě» on July 17, 2007, 01:10:18 PM
yea millionares post on lsd and argue about big law salaries. U run a multimillion dollar business yet want to go to law school and are in here talking about salary hahaa also, pointing out the salary vs cost of living is done for people to undertand that 90 grand in the south is 200 grand up in ny not for any other purpose you dumbass. Its not used to check how much more someone wants to live in a certain city, it shows that a 90g salary affords the same lifestyle. Got it million dollar dumbass?

Actually, I've never argued about salaries at all. That being said, I argue about a lot of things that do not directly affect me. As for going to law school with enough money already; I want to be a lawyer and I want to have legal competence. Going to law school is how you achieve that. Might not make sense to you, but many things wouldn't I expect.

And no, $90k doesn't afford the same lifestyle in Houston as $210k does in New York, simply because it's two completely different places to live, two totally different lifestyles. People who seek to live and work in New York does so for very specific reasons, criteria they won't have fulfilled in Houston. Now, I like Houston a lot, don't take this as hating on Texas, I'm just pointing out that "Best Value" usually isn't what makes people decide where they want to live.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 03, 2007, 08:29:27 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_on_fe_st/17_kids

these people are nuts!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: mandy on August 06, 2007, 02:50:33 PM
You know, some of you people out there who hate kids, your reasons sound very similar to reasons given by "lawyer-haters". Basically bad experiences with a crappy bunch. Oh, wait. Now you'll tell me that 99% of parents give the other 1% a bad name. Where have I heard that one before?
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 08, 2007, 03:09:12 PM
http://dirtyword.byethost12.com/wordpress/?page_id=120

10 Good Reasons You May not Want to Have Kids
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: KRMcNamee on August 09, 2007, 07:13:48 AM
Kids are not really for me either, although I am not a particularly big fan of marriage as well.  I prefer to live like George Clooney, instead of Brad Pitt....aside form the massive amounts of money and such, of course.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on August 15, 2007, 06:35:28 AM
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/RaiseKids/RaisingYour290000Baby.aspx

290k for a kid?!?!?!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: The Poster on August 15, 2007, 02:38:02 PM
i think it would be a good thing if blueb73/yo da blue didn't procreate.

::fondly remembers my old stop J from reproducing thread::
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: m, on August 15, 2007, 03:15:09 PM

::fondly remembers my old stop J from reproducing thread::

::fondly remembers too::
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: I am Penny Lane on August 20, 2007, 12:04:30 AM
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/RaiseKids/RaisingYour290000Baby.aspx

290k for a kid?!?!?!

Just one of the reasons I do not plan to have children.
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: scottie on August 28, 2007, 01:18:27 PM
The $290k number is very low for families who send their kids to private schools and then foot the bill for private colleges.  It also fails to take into account the time value of that money.  When you consider the two kid family paying for private schools all the way through and take an average market rate of return into account, it is pretty clear that the couple could retire at the age their kids would graduate college if they had simply not had them.  Then again, how many childless folks out there actually invest all that saved money as opposed to consuming it?  Personally, I will take my million dollar hit and move on with my life.  I am pretty sure that the $1M will buy me someone to change my Depends.  Well, hopefully... :-\
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on September 14, 2007, 08:24:39 AM
http://www.slate.com/id/2173458?gt1=10436

dont procreate, adopt instead!
Title: Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
Post by: ->Soon on October 26, 2007, 10:18:28 AM
If you decide you must spawn, when you take your bundle of joy out into publci, do whatever it takes to keep it quiet

the rest of us really dont want to hear how loud the little noise monster can get.