Law School Discussion

Law Students => Transferring => Topic started by: M112 on June 30, 2010, 10:25:31 AM

Title: What is considered T1?
Post by: M112 on June 30, 2010, 10:25:31 AM
Exactly what ranking is considered T1 as opposed to T2?

Is T1 top 50 or top 25?  Likewise, if someone could accurately label the ranking necessary to be included in the T2 it would be appreciated.  Thanks.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: 'blueskies on June 30, 2010, 10:29:14 AM
1-50 --> T1, 100-51 --> T2
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: interrex on December 21, 2010, 09:43:39 PM
Why worry about it? It's all baloney anyways. Barpass rate is hardly even a factor in it. Its "how other schools view you" My neighbors wife is hot and most others would agree, but that dosn't change the fact that she's a psycho female dog and if you stick in her you will get an itch that even penacilin can't cure, same bullshitt with these ratings.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: bigs5068 on December 22, 2010, 12:50:59 AM
Bar percentage counts for 2% of a school's ranking. 20% is based on employment, but flipping burgers qualifies as employment for U.S. News. 60% is based on judges from around the country checking a box of Excellent, Very Good, Good, or marginal. Genearlly the people marking these boxes have never heard of the school they are marking. I imagine few San Francisco judges take trips to Nebraska. I also imagine few Nebraska judges make trips to New York or San Francisco, but they do check the box. It is a horrendously bad formula, but it is what it is. In regards to the actual question top 50 schools in U.S. News are tier 1. 50-100 are tier 2. Then there are tier 3 & tier 4. There is numerical category for this just a blanket statement based on god knows what. It is pretty funny to look at how drastically schools drop and rise over a period of 2 years. Nothing changes at the school, but based on this judges checking good or very good regarding a school they never heard of the rank changes drastically.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: BikePilot on December 22, 2010, 07:43:21 AM
Given all those problems, the rankings still give a general ballpark notion of how schools are viewed relative to eachother.  Barpass probably shouldn't be part of ranking at all imho as the point of law school isn't to be a 3-yr barbri course - if anything there's an inverse relationship between bar material covered at a school and bar pass rate - top schools have very high bar pass rates because they attract top students who then study for the bar.  Those students would have passed just as easily if they'd skipped law school and gone straight to the bar I think. 

In general, its sort of self-perpetuating - the more desirable a school is, the better student's it attracts and the better students it attracts, the better lawyers it produces.  Better lawyers make for a better overall reputation and increases the desirability of the school.  From my perspective one of the biggest things you purchase when you go to a more competitive school is an, on average, higher quality student body.  This makes a big difference wrt networking, learning experience and alumi base.  If you are lucky you might also get better professors and a brand name that will make starting your career a lot less work.

Now if anyone can figure out why USNWR cares about number of library books then we'll really make some progress ;)  (my theory is that it creates a barrier to entry for new schools).

Within T1 folks often talk about the T14 which is georgetown and up.  These move around a bit, but more or less the T14 are always the same T`14.  Whether there's a huge gap between georgetown and whatever school is 15th or not I'm not sure - probably not.  Within the T14 the T3 are in their own little group and pretty equivalent wrt opportunities and student body, but very different in culture and feel.  The next few - Columbia, NYU and Chicago are also more or less all on the same plane. So while you can't really say with any great confidence that one school is definitely deserving of its exact rank, you can usually say that a group of a few schools are pretty similar and better than another clump.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: bigs5068 on December 22, 2010, 11:17:47 AM
I have no problem ranking the top 25 or so schools. Honestly, what is the difference between Texas Wesleyan & Creighton or Stetson v. Gonzaga. There are elite schools there is no question about that and judges across the nation might have an actual opinion about Georgetown or Yale. I would have no problem with them saying Georgetown is 12th and Yale is second. That is fine because judges/lawyers across the country most likely have actual opinions about the school.  I highly doubt many judges/lawyers outside of San Francisco have dealt with GGU. I also doubt many people outside of Florida have dealt with Stetson. There are elite schools, but distinguishing the 82nd and 114th best school makes absolutely no sense.

The NCAA does not go past the top 25, because it does not matter outside of that. University of Idaho could beat San Jose State on any given day and San Jose State could beat University of Idaho on any given day. Even if San Jose State was ranked 53 and Idaho was ranked 82 nobody would be shocked if the 82nd team beat the 53rd.The NCAA realizes how stupid it is to rank past the top 25 so they just don't do it. I like that model because you are either elite or not your not. It would be nice if U.S. News adopted the same model.

It is really sad because idiots like myself nearly move across the country to go to a tier 2 school instead of a tier 4 in the location they want to live in. Thankfully, I had real lawyers talk some sense into me. I do not know if others are so lucky. Employers I imagine have no idea what is tier 2,3,4. It is unlikely anyone in New York has ever heard of GGU. It is unlikely anyone in Miami has heard of Southwestern. So and so on yet people will give up all kinds of things to go to a tier 3 school instead of a tier 4. Since the rating is so bad by the time they are one year in the school might be demoted to tier 4. The tier 4's they turned down could have become tier 3's. It is just so f**ing stupid to rank them past the top 25 maybe 50 schools. Outside of that the schools just go from tier 2 to tier 4 in one year. Michigan, Yale, Harvard, etc stay in the top 25 because those are damn good schools that the people making the rankings are familiar with. They may change a few spots, but they do go not through ups and downs like University of San Francisco. USF in a 3 year span went from 78 to tier 3 to 96th. Nothing changed at the school yet it moved that drastically and that is because I imagine most of the lawyers/judges marking the scan-tron have never dealt with USF and they simply check the good box one year or the very good box the next with absolutely nothing to back up their opinion. Based on some guys checking a box based on nothing people will give up all kinds of scholarship money or move across the country and it is just sad.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: interrex on December 22, 2010, 02:07:19 PM
Its just proof how stupid people fall for marketing. Makes you wonder how people judged lawschools BEFORE a private corporation told them what to think a few years back.......my GOD, an American NOT before told what to do by a commercial? MADNESS!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: fortook on December 22, 2010, 02:20:27 PM
Hmmmm.  Makes me wonder- When did the ranking system start?
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: bigs5068 on December 24, 2010, 11:27:29 AM
It started 25 years ago. It was not encouraged by anyone it simply appeared and the formula has no backing. I imagine the legal industry has become worse since that time, because people take this rating so seriously and schools now focus more on trying to please a for-profit unregulated magazine than provide a quality education. Students also think they are entitled to something for going to the 62nd best school instead of the 83rd. It is just a terrible system that does nothing good for anyone accept get U.S. News a healthy profit.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: interrex on December 26, 2010, 02:06:50 PM
So if rankings are based in large part based on the votes of judges, and cooley is spitting out record numbers of lawyers each year flooding the market with them as an increasing percentage of the licensed attorneys and increasing so the standing judges as well, won't the system eventually end up with cooley as #1 simply do to the fact that very soon the vast majority will be cooley grads? The people who cry about wanting to make $160,000 day one tend to be allergic to civil service, cooley grads tend not to have really any other choice according to posters here, so since cooley was created about the same times as the rankings it seems to be all a cooley based conspiracy for global dominance due to a brainwashed society that will buy and/pr kill eachother for whatever $200 shoe a rapping b-ball player wears.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: bigs5068 on December 26, 2010, 05:53:16 PM
Well I do not think many Cooley Grads become judges. On top of that not many leave Michigan. So they will not have many votes. More importantly I believe Harvard, Yale, etc have far more grads than other schools. So they will continue to have more votes. Cooley, Ggu and many other tier 2,3,4 students are often not as motivated as a Ivy league students. So when things do not go there way their school graduates to many people or the curve is to hard. Anything to avoid some type of accountability on themselves. Genereally Ivy league students were hard working and motivated when they started. They remain that way at graduation. Many tier 2,3,4 students are also hard working and succeed, but there are more questionable people at lower ranked schools. Those people complain about these schools, but they are the types that would complain no matter what.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: interrex on December 26, 2010, 06:31:11 PM
Wow, that proves some major ignornace. Cooley grads are all over the nation(in large part due to the fact that many live out of state to begin with and commute in on the weekends will zero intent to EVER practice in Michigan), MANY are judges and motivation comes from a desire to prove yourself, not from being ego stroked all day. Plus the pure mathmatics of it from number of grads. Other schools may have "more than most" but not the "largest" (4 campus's and growing, expect 5 within a year or two, and then more after that)
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: MAJ. Lee, Awsome. on December 26, 2010, 06:41:48 PM
The white man will always talk smack about a school which has more minorities and women than they do.
It's just racism, so don't expect the rankings to change since Republicans run USNews and they are the biggest racists all. If the votes come in favor of a minority school, they'll just change how they do their rankings. That's how racism works.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: the white rabbit on December 27, 2010, 05:42:47 AM
So if rankings are based in large part based on the votes of judges, and cooley is spitting out record numbers of lawyers each year flooding the market with them as an increasing percentage of the licensed attorneys and increasing so the standing judges as well, won't the system eventually end up with cooley as #1 simply do to the fact that very soon the vast majority will be cooley grads? The people who cry about wanting to make $160,000 day one tend to be allergic to civil service, cooley grads tend not to have really any other choice according to posters here, so since cooley was created about the same times as the rankings it seems to be all a cooley based conspiracy for global dominance due to a brainwashed society that will buy and/pr kill eachother for whatever $200 shoe a rapping b-ball player wears.

There's not necessarily a direct relationship between # of alumni and # of alumni judges.  Also, I think your assumption about the $160k crowd is wrong.  Plenty of civil service folks started off at the big firms.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: interrex on December 27, 2010, 07:36:32 AM
Just the fact that you have that knee-jerk responce proves a lot. Most people are confused and don't understand when their being invaded and over run.

So if rankings are based in large part based on the votes of judges, and cooley is spitting out record numbers of lawyers each year flooding the market with them as an increasing percentage of the licensed attorneys and increasing so the standing judges as well, won't the system eventually end up with cooley as #1 simply do to the fact that very soon the vast majority will be cooley grads? The people who cry about wanting to make $160,000 day one tend to be allergic to civil service, cooley grads tend not to have really any other choice according to posters here, so since cooley was created about the same times as the rankings it seems to be all a cooley based conspiracy for global dominance due to a brainwashed society that will buy and/pr kill eachother for whatever $200 shoe a rapping b-ball player wears.

Are you an idiot?  I mean than with the utmost respect.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: marcus-aurelius on December 27, 2010, 08:02:04 AM
"Their" is incorrect.  The correct word is a contraction, "they're," which is short for they are.

Just the fact that you have that knee-jerk responce proves a lot. Most people are confused and don't understand when their being invaded and over run.

So if rankings are based in large part based on the votes of judges, and cooley is spitting out record numbers of lawyers each year flooding the market with them as an increasing percentage of the licensed attorneys and increasing so the standing judges as well, won't the system eventually end up with cooley as #1 simply do to the fact that very soon the vast majority will be cooley grads? The people who cry about wanting to make $160,000 day one tend to be allergic to civil service, cooley grads tend not to have really any other choice according to posters here, so since cooley was created about the same times as the rankings it seems to be all a cooley based conspiracy for global dominance due to a brainwashed society that will buy and/pr kill eachother for whatever $200 shoe a rapping b-ball player wears.

Are you an idiot?  I mean than with the utmost respect.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: interrex on December 27, 2010, 09:08:29 AM
says the man in the hills who is part of neither party.
You'd probably make the same arguments in medical school as well as your patients flatlined.
Enjoy the D's grammar boy. Their gonna kickyerass.
Your type is on AP by semester2 and stuck in some crybaby MBA by term4 talking about how much better off they are now and how horrible lawschool was with the Profs and students all stupid and out to get them.  :'(

"Their" is incorrect.  The correct word is a contraction, "they're," which is short for they are.

Just the fact that you have that knee-jerk responce proves a lot. Most people are confused and don't understand when their being invaded and over run.

So if rankings are based in large part based on the votes of judges, and cooley is spitting out record numbers of lawyers each year flooding the market with them as an increasing percentage of the licensed attorneys and increasing so the standing judges as well, won't the system eventually end up with cooley as #1 simply do to the fact that very soon the vast majority will be cooley grads? The people who cry about wanting to make $160,000 day one tend to be allergic to civil service, cooley grads tend not to have really any other choice according to posters here, so since cooley was created about the same times as the rankings it seems to be all a cooley based conspiracy for global dominance due to a brainwashed society that will buy and/pr kill eachother for whatever $200 shoe a rapping b-ball player wears.

Are you an idiot?  I mean than with the utmost respect.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: marcus-aurelius on December 27, 2010, 09:21:24 AM
Yout got probably right.  You deserve a round of applause hahaha
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: interrex on December 27, 2010, 09:27:45 AM
I remember people saying simular remarks about the shift from a mostly white nation to mostly not.
Look around, where you live now cracka'?  :-X

Yout got probably right.  You deserve a round of applause hahaha
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: bigs5068 on December 27, 2010, 03:49:43 PM
Wow, that proves some major ignornace. Cooley grads are all over the nation(in large part due to the fact that many live out of state to begin with and commute in on the weekends will zero intent to EVER practice in Michigan), MANY are judges and motivation comes from a desire to prove yourself, not from being ego stroked all day. Plus the pure mathmatics of it from number of grads. Other schools may have "more than most" but not the "largest" (4 campus's and growing, expect 5 within a year or two, and then more after that)

I am not trying to knock Cooley. It is a fine school and I worked for alumni in California who were great. However, there is a reality and more top25 law school graduates are judges. I am sure there are Cooley grads that become judges.  However, if I were to bet on a Cooley grad becoming a judge v. a Harvard grad any reasonable person bets on the Harvard grad.

Then the Harvard alumni judges rank Harvard #1 it is an awesome system:(
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: interrex on December 27, 2010, 04:20:59 PM
Cooley has room for growth(and it is growing) but people seem to forget just how many are practicing all across the nation and even yes as judges and elected officals. Even if conspiracy nutjobs wanted to believe that only the top percentile of cooleys class was the ones doing so, that number is ever rising. Do the math.

I agree cooley is a fine school. So is Concord in my book(but they're off the grid as far as USNews is concerned)
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: Thane Messinger on December 27, 2010, 04:49:56 PM
So if rankings are based in large part based on the votes of judges, and cooley is spitting out record numbers of lawyers each year flooding the market with them as an increasing percentage of the licensed attorneys and increasing so the standing judges as well, won't the system eventually end up with cooley as #1 simply do to the fact that very soon the vast majority will be cooley grads?


Perhaps in a few hundred years.  Then again, Harvard and Yale will still have a three-century headstart.  (Not as to law grads, granted, but for this level, the official degree was often less important than the pedigree of institution and holder.)  Even newcomer Stanford will have a century on 'em.

And quantity ain't the same as quality.  Ask anyone from Yale.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: MAJ. Lee, Awsome. on December 27, 2010, 06:20:26 PM
Yale knows about outside of Yale how? You implying they suck or something? ???
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: Thane Messinger on December 27, 2010, 07:06:04 PM
Yale knows about outside of Yale how? You implying they suck or something? ???


In matters academic, those from the top of the top tier know just about everything . . . and everyone.  (Note:  Not that they're right.)  Thus the comparison to Cooley, etc., while (presumably) tongue-in-cheek is a bit off the mark.

The competition at the tippy-top is between Harvard and Yale.  (Many put Stanford in the same club, and one could argue for a half dozen others.)  Harvard is nearly three times as large as Yale, and while Harvard dominates in just about every way, those in the know know that it is Yale with the edge, academically.  This isn't because of superiority of faculty, library, lighting, etc., but because of selectivity.  In that word lies the answer to the question.  Whether we like the question . . . that's another question entirely.   = :   )

PS:  Judges are not selected by quantity.  If they were, it's Texas and Georgetown that would be the ones to beat.   
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: interrex on December 27, 2010, 09:11:49 PM
so you honestly believe that 100% of the judges polled by USNews come from those three schools then. That's what your trying to say?
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: Thane Messinger on December 27, 2010, 11:33:58 PM
so you honestly believe that 100% of the judges polled by USNews come from those three schools then. That's what your trying to say?


Clearly not, but precisely because of this, the weighting favors established schools (and especially prestigious ones).  One need look no further than the composition of the current U.S. Supreme Court and their respective almae matres.  This is not about right or wrong; it is about what is.

The question as to what constitutes a "T1" is in many ways the wrong question.  All U.S. law schools . . . ALL of them . . . are modeled on Harvard Law School, circa 1880.  Law professors are routinely drawn from the top five law schools.  To a large degree, legal education is a commodity . . . there is little difference between the highest- and lowest-ranked schools vis-a-vis becoming a lawyer, which is paradoxically why differences among law schools and students, both real and perceived, are so impactful.

PS: Not sure where I wrote anything close to your statement.  = :  )
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: interrex on December 28, 2010, 07:54:53 AM
So in about a decade or so when all the powdered whigs die off and are replaced by cooley grads, THEN it will be a T1, gotcha.  ;)
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: fortook on December 28, 2010, 02:22:02 PM
Thane Messinger is making a cogent and concisely stated observation about our legal system via our law schools and how it has been influenced by how things were in the past.  You are oversimplifying his point to talk up or down Cooley (ironically, I can't tell which).  Why you are doing it I can't imagine.  His point is true, obvious, and well stated.
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: marcus-aurelius on December 28, 2010, 02:24:12 PM
Fortook,

Interrex is banned from the site thanks to our wonderful moderators.  So pay no mind to the troll haha
Title: Re: What is considered T1?
Post by: fortook on December 28, 2010, 03:05:51 PM
Ha.  How do you know so soon?  He posted today.  Cheers.