Law School Discussion

Law Students => Online Law Schools => Topic started by: voss749 on November 18, 2005, 01:43:18 PM

Title: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: voss749 on November 18, 2005, 01:43:18 PM
As the technology improves and it becomes possible to do realtime video conferencing from home...
either the ABA will approve a program, or the federal government will step in OR states will start approving
programs.

I think the ABA will EVENTUALLY set standards of allowing students to take MOST of their courses online
but requiring online law students to take courses in trial practice and internship in person. I think
the ABA is very set in their ways...BUT they dont want to be outflanked or perhaps even have a rival
accreditation bureau be established or have an old one move into accrediting law schools
(such as the regional bureaus that alreeady accredit other colleges and schools such as SACS)

IMHO online law schools do not belong in the same category as "correspondence schools" since there
is live interaction albeit online. Also as for-profit law schools are being allowed now...various
states will realize...theres money to be made in online law schools.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on November 18, 2005, 03:18:02 PM
I suppose the ABA would have to weigh the benefits of approving online law schools. California is certainly proving that there is a market for online law school degrees, however sometimes it seems that the ABA has the same mindset as old farmers who insist that their kids stay home on the farm. "Whatcha need edefication fer? We don't need none of those new-fangled dang tarnation thing-a-ma-jiggies. Now git out thar in thaat field and hitch dem mules to the plow."

Yes, computer technology is a wonderful means of communication and education. I wonder if the ABA is ready to allow the law schools to use it.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on November 18, 2005, 04:00:16 PM
I might add that I live approximately 100 miles from the nearest law school, of which there are only four in this state. I have contacted at least one of them with hopes that they could establish a law school at the city where I live, and received a "we already tried that" answer. Many of the area colleges already have criminal justice and paralegal programs, which seem very popular and successful.

I would guess that California is benefiting from the financial proceeds of law students from other states. I would think that either the ABA would approve online law schools, allowing the law schools of this state to provide online law degree programs, or the state judiciaries would allow non-ABA approved law school students to take the state Bar exams--which would create an opening for existing online law schools to branch into other states.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: jacy85 on November 18, 2005, 06:41:53 PM
Just because there's a market for it doesn't mean that is should be done.  I just don't see ANYONE taking online law schools seriously at any foreseeable point.  And maybe that's the way it should be, since there seem to be less than stellar attorneys coming out of ABA accredited schools as it is.  Why throw online law schools into the mix, where anyone and their mother can get a JD?  Not good for the standards of the profession, IMO.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on November 18, 2005, 08:40:37 PM
Standards of the profession? Why is the study of law an exclusive right of the elitists?

Perhaps those "less than stellar attorneys" (and I have been the client of some of them) are a result of the teaching of their snobby, imperialistic, traditional brick and mortar law schools. 

Read the LSD boardsite and the posts of the traditional law students partying at their solid tier level non-toilet law schools and who can barely stay on the subject for two posts and compare them with the discussions of the DL law school students who at least seem seriously interested in learning about law. Then tell me about "standards".
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: jacy85 on November 19, 2005, 06:34:11 AM
Read the LSD boardsite and the posts of the traditional law students partying at their solid tier level non-toilet law schools and who can barely stay on the subject for two posts and compare them with the discussions of the DL law school students who at least seem seriously interested in learning about law. Then tell me about "standards".


Because behavior on a discussion board is indicative of the kind of attorney a person will be.  Have any statistics to support that?
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on November 19, 2005, 10:43:07 AM
Who says that all of them will become attorneys?
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on November 19, 2005, 12:57:40 PM
(I really think that, considering all of the mudslinging, someone should switch the discussion to politics.)

I think all of the anti-DL law school posters need to grow up and get a life. First of all, the existing DL law schools are not against the law. There is no moral or ethical code against DL law schools, but only some people's refusal to consider something that is against what has been ingrained into them.

California is not the only place with DL law schools; Great Britain and some other countries also have some popular DL law school programs, although different than the U.S. JD programs.

For that matter, what difference does it make if some people want to obtain a JD online? Are the brick and mortar law school students getting brownie points for recruiting students to their schools? No, I think not. I would say that it sounds more like a plug by law school admissions to get students into their 'better' schools.

Now, I must get busy. Excuse me. I am studying an online course.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: voss749 on November 20, 2005, 12:38:13 AM
To paraphrase a popular president...online law schools will not beat the ABA, they will transcend the ABA...they will not bother to denounce the ABA instead dismiss it as a bizarre organization whos last days of monopoly are already in sight.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: jacy85 on November 20, 2005, 05:29:45 AM
To paraphrase a popular president...online law schools will not beat the ABA, they will transcend the ABA...they will not bother to denounce the ABA instead dismiss it as a bizarre organization whos last days of monopoly are already in sight.

Ha!  That's the best laugh I've had all weekend.  Keep telling yourself that.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: lincolnsgrandson on November 20, 2005, 05:39:03 AM
Onlilne law schools will not be taken seriously.  Absolutely not.  The whole educational atmosphere won't turn into a blogspot.
Lamenting that "brick and mortor" law schools are some throwback to elitism is besides the point.  Success in law is completely based on elitism; prestige of education is completely elitist by nature.  Law school hasn't changed much at all in a hundred years; it can't be expected to undergo any radical changes in the near future.  If it does, law school should be emphasizing more practical hands-on aspects of lawyering. 
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on November 20, 2005, 09:55:10 AM
To paraphrase a popular president...online law schools will not beat the ABA, they will transcend the ABA...they will not bother to denounce the ABA instead dismiss it as a bizarre organization whos last days of monopoly are already in sight.

ah, voss749, I think you have provided the clue. As a matter of fact, I am just reading about monopolies. You have probably heard of the glass ceiling; I have also noticed what seems as "glass walls" when attempting to enter the legal field. Those barriers of entry are a sign of a pure monopoly. My book describes barriers as economic, technological, legal or some other type.

I suppose that DL law schools are considered as a major threat to the monopolistic industry of law, in that they eliminate the barriers!

You are a genius!
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: voss749 on November 20, 2005, 02:29:01 PM
To paraphrase a popular president...online law schools will not beat the ABA, they will transcend the ABA...they will not bother to denounce the ABA instead dismiss it as a bizarre organization whos last days of monopoly are already in sight.

Ha!  That's the best laugh I've had all weekend.  Keep telling yourself that.

Why waste my time on the obvious?

The ABA has been against every major innovation in the field of law including the entry of blacks, women, and allowing foreign trained lawyers to sit for the bar exam. The difference is there is more money behind internet commerce than behind the ABA. For the first time...money isnt on the ABA's side
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: law543 on November 28, 2005, 05:27:40 PM
As with all radical changes...the advent of DL law will not be one that will come about easily or one that will be readily accepted by the ABA. After all, they have a vested interest in keeping DL out. Many don't even realize that requiring an undergrad degree in order to attend law school is mostly a recent phenomenon. It was Harvard that eventually set the standard for law school...and is a tradition that continues to this day. The law degree (that later was named the Juris Doctor) used to be a 2-year program that was virtually an undergrad degree by itself and one did not even have to attend a law school to get it.

In all of my dealings with many law students online and otherwise, I've seen virtually no difference in the education. Of course there are differences in the opportunities available...but nobody is denying that. However, for one who goes into DL with their eyes wide open, understanding the career limitations and understanding the prejudices that will be there for them when they exit the other side, degree in hand...and they decide to do it despite all of this because they know why they are doing it...more power to you. :)
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on December 02, 2005, 07:31:24 AM

In all of my dealings with many law students online and otherwise, I've seen virtually no difference in the education. Of course there are differences in the opportunities available...but nobody is denying that. However, for one who goes into DL with their eyes wide open, understanding the career limitations and understanding the prejudices that will be there for them when they exit the other side, degree in hand...and they decide to do it despite all of this because they know why they are doing it...more power to you. :)

I suppose a student's success would be determined by the type of person he/she really is. I would guess that many of the B.M. (brick and mortar) law students are very social people who could not make it through law school without the social aspect of gathering with other students. The DL law schools are probably not geared for moot court, although the students would have the option of observing at as many actual trials as is convenient.

I would think that there are prejudices no matter what law school a lawyer graduates from. If it is a DL school, it has the DL law school stigma. If it is not a high rated law school, it has the low level law school stigma. If it is a high rated law school, then it is an argument about who went to the better undergrad school, whose scores were better, who had the better professors, which graduating class is better, etc.

It almost seems that unless one student shares a totally identical experience with another student, no one would recognize the qualifications of another as "adequate."
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: duckasourus on February 03, 2006, 04:19:03 PM
"they will not bother to denounce the ABA instead dismiss it as a bizarre organization whos last days of monopoly are already in sight. "

Um if the aba is soo bad then why are ALL the fake law schools trying to join it.  The truth is internet law schools just want to take the money of the people who were not good enough to get into even the worst aba schools.  They know you have little chance of ever becoming lawyers, as does California which is why they require you to take the baby bar.  Internet classes may become a part of aba schools but never the whole program because the interaction with professors and being actually called on rather than staring at a computer screen are vital to a good legal education.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on February 13, 2006, 04:22:17 AM
okay, here are some posts written by the experts- "borrowed" from another website:

"First, you need to realize that the admissions process at law schools is more than just competitive, it's corrupt. Law schools, particularly those below the top twenty, are obsessed with rankings. Rankings mean bragging rights to alumni, and that translates into dollars. Dollars mean better salaries, new buildings, etc. The same thing is true everywhere in academia.
Having actively been a member of a law school admissions committee for several years, here's the raw feed:
Look at the US News and World Report rankings. That'll give you the percentile ranks of GPA and LSAT score. You'll see average scores and the 25th and 75th percentile. Are you below the curve? Your odds are 20-1 at schools in the top twenty, and roughly 8-1 at schools ranked 21-100.
That's before you even apply. It's simple math, you've got 2000 people competing for 100 slots. Get ALL the stats on the schools you're looking at from LSAC."

*****

"There are more lawyers than there are entry lawyer jobs. There are more lawyers than there are people looking for lawyers, which is why law firms run ads telling people that "You might have been injured if you took this drug...", and why lawyers sometimes beat emergency personnel to plane wrecks.
Legal associates are expected to work 70 hours per week without any extra pay. A $40K salary for 70 hours per week works out to about $11/hour, which you can earn at WalMart without having paid $20K per year for 3 years for tuition. The high starting salaries that you see in the newspapers are for the top 1% of each year's graduates who land prestige jobs in the big city firms. The other 99% of the graduates fight for maybe 1 real legal job for every 5 graduates, at wages more appropriate to a 40-hour work week. Many lawyers go back to their former non-law careers, try to become paralegals, or start from scratch in new jobs that don't require lawyers.
Associates are bribed into working these absurd hours by vague promises of maybe making partner some day, the same way that multi-level marketers keep selling crap to friends because they think that eventually they will be in the Magic Profit Zone, with many associates below them making money for them the same way the gullible boob is making money for the higher-ups today. Law firms are pyramids, with associates making money for the partners; the partners don't really want to share.
Then there are ethics questions. It's an eye-opener the first time a partner instructs you to betray a client, withhold discoverable material, or move forward with an absurd legal theory. That's why I'm in solo practice now."


Now compare the marginal cost ---various costs of the LSAT, LSAC, applications, cost of seven or more years of college at a brick and mortar college and an ABA law school, housing, transportation, hours spent in classrooms, Bar exams, Performance exams, Character and Fitness interviews, cost of licensing and admittance to the Bar, cost of Continuing Education, costs of renewing licenses and malpractice insurance----with the marginal benefits listed in the above paragraphs. 
Compare the chances of best case scenario---acceptance (5%) graduation, passing the Bar exam (86.6%) admittance to the Bar, and employment with a good law firm with the worst case scenario...by the year 2008, experts expect the market will be flooded with law school grads. What is the purpose of acquiring large amounts of debt to work in an area where there isn't enough employment?

What is the percentage of law school students who graduate? What is the percentage who are admitted to the Bar and enter their chosen field of practice?

Basically, the non-successful lawyer wannabees are the ones paying the way for the successful lawyers' prestigious traditional education. If only the students who later enjoy a successful law career were attending law schools, the law schools probably wouldn't have adequate funding to keep their doors open.

Hence, a sensible person who wants to enjoy the hobby of law, which is perfectly okay, should consider the amount of money he/she is willing to spend for the education.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: voice of reason on February 13, 2006, 07:10:33 AM
Jack, thank you for putting some stats to what I have been saying all along.  The law profession is very cutthroat and prestige-oriented, from the cradle (law school admissions) to the grave (making partner).  The legal profession is saturated due to everyone thinking they can do it too, and many lesser ranked schools perpetuate this problem. 

There's no such thing as the "hobby of law".  It's either a profession or its not.  If someone, for reasons I could never understand, wants to take up law as a hobby, don't go to law school.  For one, you are taking up a spot reserved for some other zealot that wanted to be a lawyer since he/she was 11 for a career because you were "curious".  Second, any hobby that requires you to incur ~$100,000 debt with little or no return, and requires you to pay it back in 10 years is a BAD idea.  Third, law can be quite boring sometimes.  Many of those that have dreamed of being a lawyer all their lives find it difficult to wade through some of the subject matter.  It's not for the faint of heart and not for those with a passing interest.  If theres someone out there that wants to learn the law for fun, self-study.  Buy some E&E's, hornbooks, casebooks, whatever.  Knock yourself out.  Save $99,000 and three years of stress.

If law is your dream, then those stats should be a wake up call.  That's a lot of debt to take on for uncertain prospects.  When investing in yourself, you need to think like an economist.  There is an enormous opportunity cost associated with attending law school.  Not only are you spending money like mad on education, you are giving up three years salary in whatever profession you are in or could gain employment in.  That's another $150,000 or more down the drain.  Suddenly, law school doesn't look so good.  Are you in that 1%?  Are you so naive as to think you will be the one to beat all odds and be that one guy that "makes it" from your school?  Is this job worth $250,000 or more to you?  Assuming you can get a lower paying job, do you want to be a slave working at $11/hour trying to pay back your loans for the next 10 years?  These are just a few of the questions a person should ask themselves before throwing themselves down the slippery slope.

If all you can attend is an online law school or any non ABA approved school, forget it.  This has been discussed ad nauseum, no need to rehash.  If all you can attend is a T3/T4, think long and hard before committing yourself.  Know what you are getting yourself into and be honest with yourself.  Consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT or even waiting three years for your score to be erased and start fresh.  Above this, just concentrate on getting into the best school that you can get into to maximize your chances at making it in a difficult field.  Think long and hard before committing yourself.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 14, 2006, 04:33:05 AM
If ever there was a self righteous wind bag, you are it. "If you can't do it my way, or the ABA way, don't do it, you will be wasting your time." So it is said by Duckasouras Jr(Donald Duck voice effect), the equal opportunity specialist formerly known as "Voice of Reason".
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on February 14, 2006, 04:36:20 AM

If all you can attend is an online law school or any non ABA approved school, forget it.  This has been discussed ad nauseum, no need to rehash.  If all you can attend is a T3/T4, think long and hard before committing yourself.  Know what you are getting yourself into and be honest with yourself.  Consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT or even waiting three years for your score to be erased and start fresh.  Above this, just concentrate on getting into the best school that you can get into to maximize your chances at making it in a difficult field.  Think long and hard before committing yourself.

I'm not totally against DL law schools (or lower tier law schools). I see a very good purpose for DL law schools. For one, they are accepted in some states, which makes it difficult for those who are accustomed to the ABA requirements of their own states to accept the difference.

Also, for those who want to study law as a hobby or to enhance their non-law career potential, I think DL law schools can provide the structure needed to succeed. The students are not totally on their own as they would be with only self-study. The students are not held to the time constraints of traditional law schools, the cost is much lower, and the DL law schools eliminate the inconvenience of attending a traditional school. There are probably people who would very much appreciate a traditional law education but cannot because of some reason besides the inability of gaining acceptance on the grounds of GPA's and LSAT scores.

As long as those who seriously want or need to practice law as a career understand the necessity of attending an ABA approved traditional law school when required by state laws, there isn't any problem. But for those who do not wish to compete in the field of law as licensed lawyers, or for those whose states accept DL law school education, I think a DL law school education is alright.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 14, 2006, 04:49:19 AM
Wild Jack Maverick, you should have your name changed to the Voice of Reason because you deserve the literal title. All I can say about your response to "Duckasouras Jr"(Donald Duck voice effect) the equal opportunity specialist formerly known as Voice of Reason, is didn't anyone ever tell you not to piss into the wind? This guy is just going to come back and flame your post and tell you what a waste of time it is and yadda, yadda, yadda. He is like a broken freaking record already. He is so sure that distance learners don't belong in law that he wants to have us marked with a big "DL" so the rest of the world will know that we are not as good as he is. I appreciate all of your common sense posts on the board. I just think you are wasting your time on this self appointed wind bag defender of the legal profession. He did name himself Voice of Reason. Think about it.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: duckasourus on February 14, 2006, 11:28:49 AM
wow you are right for once, DL students do not belong in school and should be branded on the forehead with fake law degree, you can not seriously claim the applicants there are on the same field as those from ABA schools. I will leave you with the bar passage rates of fake law schools vs real ones.  YOU WILL NEVER PASS THE BAR, go buy a corvette before the airline goes bankrupt and takes away your pension.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: voice of reason on February 14, 2006, 08:26:11 PM
No, I'm not going to flame Jack's post because it was mature, rational and well thought out.  Unlike you, aloha, who cannot listen to people's criticism and makes posts that look like they were written by a 15 year old in terms of maturity.  We agree that DL is ok for people that wish to study law, though I think that law is a profession and not a hobby.  However, if someone has some weird fetish to learn law for the hell of it, go for it.  Just don't expect to have many if any at all opportunities if you expect that DL degree to carry you professionally.  That is the whole point of people coming on here and denouncing non ABA schools (some more eloquently than others).  Many began with well-reasoned arguments, but were reduced to flame after aloha responded with immaturity and arrogance.

Those with ABA approved degrees are not worried about competing with non-ABA schools.  Those that believe that the ABA will fall, online degrees will take over, etc etc are kidding themselves.  Be real about the position you are in...in the legal world, it's not a good one...you will be at the bottom of the heap and shunned by all these "elitist laywers" that wish to hire ABA accredited associates.  If you still can't understand that than I feel sorry for you.  Have fun with your "degree".  I'm sick of this topic.  If nothing else, I hope those that came to this board curious about the merits of an online degree decide to throw their full effort behind attending an ABA school, or at least read all these posts and give serious pause before trying to get an online JD.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 15, 2006, 01:26:32 PM
What Voice of Reason said yesterday:

"We agree that DL is ok for people that wish to study law.."

What he really meant, he stated two days ago:

"If all you can attend is an online law school or any non ABA approved school, forget it."

What Voice of Reason said yesterday:

"Those with ABA approved degrees are not worried about competing with non-ABA schools."

What he really meant, he stated two days ago:

"The law profession is very cutthroat and prestige-oriented, from the cradle (law school admissions) to the grave (making partner).  The legal profession is saturated due to everyone thinking they can do it too, and many lesser ranked schools perpetuate this problem."

What Voice of Reason said yesterday:

"if someone has some weird fetish to learn law for the hell of it, go for it."

What he really meant, he stated two days ago:

"There's no such thing as the "hobby of law".  It's either a profession or its not.  If someone, for reasons I could never understand, wants to take up law as a hobby, don't go to law school.  For one, you are taking up a spot reserved for some other zealot that wanted to be a lawyer since he/she was 11 for a career because you were "curious"."

What Voice of Reason said yesterday:

That is the whole point of people coming on here and denouncing non ABA schools (some more eloquently than others).  Many began with well-reasoned arguments, but were reduced to flame after aloha responded with immaturity and arrogance.

What he really meant, he stated two days ago:

"This has been discussed ad nauseum, no need to rehash.  If all you can attend is a T3/T4, think long and hard before committing yourself.  Know what you are getting yourself into and be honest with yourself.  Consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT or even waiting three years for your score to be erased and start fresh."

What Voice of Reason said yesterday:

"I'm sick of this topic."

What he really meant, he stated two days ago:

"law can be quite boring sometimes.  Many of those that have dreamed of being a lawyer all their lives find it difficult to wade through some of the subject matter."   
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: voice of reason on February 15, 2006, 05:43:33 PM
I stand by everything I said.

1.  I still don't believe law is a hobby.  For those that believe it is (can't be too many of you), I recommend self study.  If you insist on instruction, do DL so you don't take someone's spot at an approved law school and rob someone of professional opportunities.

2.  I still disagree with lower ranked schools lying to people, telling them they will no doubt succeed and be rich upon graduation.  Less people should study law-it's not for everyone.  Those that do pursue the "dream" by going to a non-approved law school...those coming from approved law schools are not worried about.  Not exactly competition.

3.  Those that are serious about the law and want a wide array of opportunities after graduating do need to work their hardest to get into top schools.  Don't settle for T3/T4 if you know you can do better.  For professional purposes, forget DL entirely.

Hope this is clear enough for you.  This is my last post on this topic, read it all carefully, those of you that are considering DL.  Stay the hell away. 
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: tjking82 on February 18, 2006, 08:24:37 PM
Jack, thank you for putting some stats to what I have been saying all along.  The law profession is very cutthroat and prestige-oriented, from the cradle (law school admissions) to the grave (making partner).  The legal profession is saturated due to everyone thinking they can do it too, and many lesser ranked schools perpetuate this problem. 

There's no such thing as the "hobby of law".  It's either a profession or its not.  If someone, for reasons I could never understand, wants to take up law as a hobby, don't go to law school.  For one, you are taking up a spot reserved for some other zealot that wanted to be a lawyer since he/she was 11 for a career because you were "curious".  Second, any hobby that requires you to incur ~$100,000 debt with little or no return, and requires you to pay it back in 10 years is a BAD idea.  Third, law can be quite boring sometimes.  Many of those that have dreamed of being a lawyer all their lives find it difficult to wade through some of the subject matter.  It's not for the faint of heart and not for those with a passing interest.  If theres someone out there that wants to learn the law for fun, self-study.  Buy some E&E's, hornbooks, casebooks, whatever.  Knock yourself out.  Save $99,000 and three years of stress.

If law is your dream, then those stats should be a wake up call.  That's a lot of debt to take on for uncertain prospects.  When investing in yourself, you need to think like an economist.  There is an enormous opportunity cost associated with attending law school.  Not only are you spending money like mad on education, you are giving up three years salary in whatever profession you are in or could gain employment in.  That's another $150,000 or more down the drain.  Suddenly, law school doesn't look so good.  Are you in that 1%?  Are you so naive as to think you will be the one to beat all odds and be that one guy that "makes it" from your school?  Is this job worth $250,000 or more to you?  Assuming you can get a lower paying job, do you want to be a slave working at $11/hour trying to pay back your loans for the next 10 years?  These are just a few of the questions a person should ask themselves before throwing themselves down the slippery slope.

If all you can attend is an online law school or any non ABA approved school, forget it.  This has been discussed ad nauseum, no need to rehash.  If all you can attend is a T3/T4, think long and hard before committing yourself.  Know what you are getting yourself into and be honest with yourself.  Consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT or even waiting three years for your score to be erased and start fresh.  Above this, just concentrate on getting into the best school that you can get into to maximize your chances at making it in a difficult field.  Think long and hard before committing yourself.

I could not agree more with all of this.  People take $150k in loans, and never stop to think about how they're going to pay that back.  Hint:  You can't pay it back on $35k per year.  You'll just be paying the interest.

Do the analysis.  I know you want to go to law school, but do you want to be a slave to your law school debt for the rest of your life?  Because if you attend a T4 or online school, that's the life you're sentencing yourself to.

And knowing there's all these cutthroat lower tier lawyers with no jobs, do you really want to get an online law degree?  What are your chances at finding a job, when you'll be confined to the lowest of jobs within law, and you're at a disadvantage to the mass of T4s who want the same job, but have an ABA degree?

These people confuse me.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: elemnopee on February 19, 2006, 06:14:53 PM
On line law degree = expensive paralegal program
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: burtonsnow on March 09, 2006, 12:29:25 AM
 

Quote
There's no such thing as the "hobby of law".  It's either a profession or its not.  If someone, for reasons I could never understand, wants to take up law as a hobby, don't go to law school.

Probably good advise.


Quote
If all you can attend is a T3/T4, think long and hard before committing yourself.  Know what you are getting yourself into and be honest with yourself.  Consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT or even waiting three years for your score to be erased and start fresh.  Above this, just concentrate on getting into the best school that you can get into to maximize your chances at making it in a difficult field.  Think long and hard before committing yourself.

The Law as a "difficult field" to work in as a legal professional is a relative concept. This whole post (as were 90% of all the others in this thread) seemed, as presented, to be just bunch of generalities with no basis in fact. The stats say that most who go to ABA approved law schools will work in the profession and they will start out at around 45,000 to 60,000 a year. Some will make way more, some slightly less. Three out of four lawyers work for themselves, that stat surprised me.

I don't know much about DL, but it does seem like few here are clearly versed in the rules on how all the various states view that degree. I think that would make getting a DL JD a speculative prospect, at the least. Their sites say that getting a LLM from an approved school can open the door to other state bar exams. Or you can practice law in Cali if you pass two bar exams (the same bar requirement that a law clerk as a apprentice has by the way, and that also was the way the law was taught thru most of US history, and is how Justice Hugo Black learned it! The tradional law school was not the traditional path when you look at the whole historical record, regarding the main path to a American legal education).  But DL won't allow you to experience the Socratic Method, but then again law clerks aren't being exposed to that either. Seems a DL will teach one the rest of it, but maybe I'm missing something.

Anyways, here's the Facts from U.S. Department of Labor
Bureau of Labor Statistics
on lawyerin' in the good ol' US of A.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm


Just so that some of us who are thinking of going to, like,  Gonzaga, say, as I am, can relax and realize we aren't just wasting our time. lol

'cuse typos
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on March 17, 2006, 11:44:42 AM
I am still learning something. Two states and the District of Columbia accept correspondence course JD's.

Are there any correspondence courses?
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: majorporcupine on March 20, 2006, 07:11:28 PM
The simple solution to this entire debate is to go to Yale.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: fuckdls on March 23, 2006, 07:57:33 AM
the only people that would go to a dl are old mid life crisis men, come on now this aloha dude is claiming he had a high lsat score then why not go to a real law school?  There are almost 200 aba law schools, many which take way too dumb of students, then the ones who cant get in a tier 4 go online.  Yes California allows you to take the bar, but they think ur dumb (rightly so) and so they make you take baby bar (which most of you fail) and then regular bar (which pretty much the rest of u fail) look at the numbers if u dont believe me, like a previous poster said u are doing an expensive paralegal program!
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: mklee53 on March 23, 2006, 01:12:23 PM
At age 52 Yale does not want me.  Eventhough  I have a 3.4 and 170 on the LSAT.  So smart ass, what is your next suggestion?  Take on $100,000 debt?  Pompous ass.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: majorporcupine on March 23, 2006, 03:04:12 PM
At age 52 Yale does not want me.  Eventhough  I have a 3.4 and 170 on the LSAT.  So smart ass, what is your next suggestion?  Take on $100,000 debt?  Pompous ass.

In that case, don't go to law school.  Take up law as a hobby, go serve on juries, watch your Law & Order re-runs.  But you have nothing valuable to add to the legal profession.  I mean, at your age, real lawyers are marketing themselves for SCOTUS appointments already.

Of course, with a 3.4/170, I'm not sure if Yale would take you at 22 either.

But hey, if you want a nice certificate that says J.D., I can print one up and mail it to you for $25.  For an extra $5, I'll even sign my name and stamp it with my official "Certified by Yale Law School Student" stamp.  The ink comes in pretty colors.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: jacy85 on March 23, 2006, 03:07:44 PM
At age 52 Yale does not want me.  Eventhough  I have a 3.4 and 170 on the LSAT.  So smart ass, what is your next suggestion?  Take on $100,000 debt?  Pompous ass.

Yale doesn't care that you're 52.  Yale cares that you only have a 3.4 and a 170.  Why would they want you when they have their choice of candidates with 3.8+ gpas and 175+ lsat scores?
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: majorporcupine on March 23, 2006, 03:10:58 PM
At age 52 Yale does not want me.  Eventhough  I have a 3.4 and 170 on the LSAT.  So smart ass, what is your next suggestion?  Take on $100,000 debt?  Pompous ass.

Yale doesn't care that you're 52.  Yale cares that you only have a 3.4 and a 170.  Why would they want you when they have their choice of candidates with 3.8+ gpas and 175+ lsat scores?

Well, at that age, two questions are crucial:

1) What have you achieved?

2) Why the change now?

Satisfactory answers to both of these could overcome a mediocre GPA/LSAT.  Not a 3.4/170, mind you; more like a 3.7/175.  But I suspect mklee53 wouldn't be able to answer (1) and (2) even with the 3.7/175, so it's a moot point.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: RootBrewskies on March 27, 2006, 11:22:33 AM
ive taken online classes.  they are utterly worthless. 

technology is a great tool for the classroom.  it is not able to replace a classroom. 



there is a reason you have to go to law school.  if the ABA approves online law schools it might as well just eliminate the requirement to go to law school.  you could just self study and then take the bar, because thats what online law schools are essentially doing. 


whats next after online law schools?  i can hear the radio and tv adds already.  "send in $59.99 for your four week law school audio tape.  with these tapes you'll be ready to pass the bar in no time.  in the time it takes you to commute to work each month, just pop in the tape and you'll be ready for the bar in no time."



there is a reason that online universities dont get respect in the job market and to put law schools online will only do the same thing.


im not saying that the non-ABA schools in cali are bad.  if thats what people want to do then go for it, but i really cant ever see myself saying that online law schools are a good idea. 

maybe some day when we have super super fast internet connections and could have seamless streaming video we could have some type of online law class situation but even that wouldnt be effective.

at some point we have to understand that technology is a good tool for us but not the answer to everything.  at some point we have to face the fact that a computer cant teach us everything.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: mklee53 on April 06, 2006, 08:42:54 AM
At age 52 Yale does not want me.  Eventhough  I have a 3.4 and 170 on the LSAT.  So smart ass, what is your next suggestion?  Take on $100,000 debt?  Pompous ass.

Yale doesn't care that you're 52.  Yale cares that you only have a 3.4 and a 170.  Why would they want you when they have their choice of candidates with 3.8+ gpas and 175+ lsat scores?

Well, at that age, two questions are crucial:

1) What have you achieved?

2) Why the change now?

Satisfactory answers to both of these could overcome a mediocre GPA/LSAT.  Not a 3.4/170, mind you; more like a 3.7/175.  But I suspect mklee53 wouldn't be able to answer (1) and (2) even with the 3.7/175, so it's a moot point.

1) I have achieved a career in criminal justice, i.e., thirty years of working with judges, parole commission, and prosecutors to make sure the "bad guys" are properly identified and incarcerated and if paroled, making sure they are held accountable for their transgressions.

2) The change is because after thirty years and retiring from that position, I have the time to devote myself to law study to become a lawyer, something I did not have when I was working fifty to sixty hours per week.

Are these answers sufficient or do you need me to draw you cartoons so you can understand?

All this said, I do not believe that a DL law degree competes with your ABA degrees, and yes they are probably a glorified paralegal degree.  No, I am not studying law for a hobby as I have already secured a clerkship from a judge for whom I worked.  No, I do not want to obtain a job in a large law firm, but I do have a respect for all of you that are devoting time, money, and effort into becoming lawyers.  If I am fortunate to obtain my degree in law, pass the bar, which is difficult enough even for the ABA graduate, it will be with the same effort and work that you have done.  Yes my options are limited, but I could not afford an ABA school.  Yes all of your degrees will be much more impressive than mine.  Some of us are doing the best we can with the funds available to us.  Just to let you know, none of my undergraduate degrees, yes degrees, nor my graduate degrees, yes plural there too, were from on line schools.  All major and highly rated universities.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on April 06, 2006, 09:42:09 AM
I don't see the logic of the argument. The brick and mortar law students seem very adament that students should attend their traditional schools or not at all, then in the next breath say that the field of law is really overcrowed and too competitive...better yet..don't bother.

Some of those brick and mortar law school grads who can't find decent jobs are likely to start their own online law schools for the money to pay their student loans. Unfortunately, if while in law school the students are busy dissing the online schools, it might be alittle difficult to later find any students willing to study online courses.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: DanteHicks on April 06, 2006, 11:35:21 AM
What about brick n mortar non-ABA schools such as Nashville School of Law (NSL)?

If the argument is that the online classrooms cannot compete with the brick n mortar classrooms, then surely no one could object to a law school such as NSL.

I agree that the bar passage rates say something for DL and/or other types of non-ABA law schools, but what about the students who DO pass the bar and go on to become great lawyers, judges, politicians, etc?  Does that not count for anything?

Lastly, a school like NSL teaches pretty much the same core law courses that the ABA schools offer.  Is the law different in those courses?

Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: elemnopee on April 06, 2006, 06:50:25 PM
I don't see the logic of the argument. The brick and mortar law students seem very adament that students should attend their traditional schools or not at all, then in the next breath say that the field of law is really overcrowed and too competitive...better yet..don't bother.

Some of those brick and mortar law school grads who can't find decent jobs are likely to start their own online law schools for the money to pay their student loans. Unfortunately, if while in law school the students are busy dissing the online schools, it might be alittle difficult to later find any students willing to study online courses.

I don't see the logic in this post, maybe my LSAT is too high
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on April 07, 2006, 04:55:57 AM
Perhaps the traditional brick and mortar law school students are worried because they can't see the competition.

In all reality, I can discern some advantage of DL law schools, in that the students are not instilled with the professors' political persuasions, relious beliefs or prejudices, such as they would be during lectures. The students wouldn't become carbon copies of their professors.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: jacy85 on April 07, 2006, 05:07:01 AM
In all reality, I can discern some advantage of DL law schools, in that the students are not instilled with the professors' political persuasions, relious beliefs or prejudices, such as they would be during lectures. The students wouldn't become carbon copies of their professors.

This might happen in undergrad, but the vast majority of Emory law students have come in with their own policical persuasions, religious beliefs or prejudices, and don't need their professor to convince them otherwise.

If someone, by the time they are 22 or older, doesn't have at least a basic set of beliefs about the world, they have more problems then attended a DL law school. 
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: [email protected] on June 11, 2006, 01:29:54 PM
To all B&M students and pontificators of DL being the route for those unable to get into an ABA-approved Law School:

I am DL Law Student.  I cannot say whether I am typical or atypical, but I happen to be pursuing my education with others just like me. 

I scored a 173 on the LSAT. I have been accepted by three T1 and several T2 Law Schools. I was even offered two full scholarships (due to the dearth of black males in the profession), all after age 38. I have an undergraduate GPA of 3.94.  I also have an MPA (GPA 4.0), a career, three college-educated children, yada, yada, yada... I have achieved fulfillment and success both professionally and personally. I plan on passing both tests the State of California requires, first time out.  You see, my life experience has taught me that preparation separates those who succeed from those who fail; minus the effort, failure takes the same amount of time as does success.

I will not be competing with you, nor you with me.  I may however, be your supervisor's supervisor or your Division Chief should you find yourself employed with the federal government.  I do not want a job at a big or small law firm.  I already have a corner office with a nice view.  I love my job and make more money annually than the debt you will likely incur.  I will incur none. I am also a retired Air Force enlisted member with a pension (thank you taxpayers and wanna-be taxpayers aka full time students).

At my age, attending Law School full time at the expense of earning a six-figure income simply isn't desirable. The only Law School in my area has only a day program and is a very expensive private institution.

My chosen and highly enjoyable profession will accept my DL JD so the argument for or against a particular method of instruction came down to practicality. I have no opinion on the ABA or their stance on DL accredidation.  It doesn't impact me personally.  I will state that if any of my children wish to pursue a JD, I will encourage them to attend an ABA school.  They're young and can afford the investment of their time and my money.

I wish you well in your studies, your subsequent job search, and your careers.  I hope you make lots of money, lots of babies, and lots of friends. 

My unsolicited advice to the young and ambitious: Surround yourself with people who love you and immerse yourself (career-wise) in something you enjoy.  Those who say life is short are only partially correct.  It can be miserably long without peace of mind.

[email protected]
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: GovLaw on June 12, 2006, 07:40:30 AM
That is an excellent post.  I am in much the same situation, though with state government.  While many people on here like to pretend that "one size fits all" -- and that size is B&M ABA -- the truth is that everyone is in a different situation, and that DL will work for some people. 

Everyone should carefully and honestly analyze their needs and goals before making a decision of this magnitude.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: mklee53 on June 13, 2006, 01:31:00 PM
Here!!  Here! to [email protected]!!! 
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: BizLaw on June 16, 2006, 08:39:30 PM
Agreed, [email protected] knows what's truly important to a DL student.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: robmelone on December 06, 2006, 07:44:56 PM
WWSD?
http://www.cafepress.com/lawthug/2017755 (http://www.cafepress.com/lawthug/2017755)
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: jgsmith on December 07, 2006, 10:18:39 AM
Everyone seems to bash kids who attend DL law schools. I say, if they can pass the bar from self-study, then let them practice.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: TDJD84 on December 07, 2006, 11:30:11 AM
Everyone seems to bash kids who attend DL law schools. I say, if they can pass the bar from self-study, then let them practice.

I agree, that person is in a better situation than a person who went to a significantly better school, and failed the bar for the 3rd time
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: lawafter40 on January 19, 2007, 04:48:52 PM
Well...

The young pups here are quite adamant and secure in their worldview. I'm one of those "old midlife crisis" DL students. To answer one of the earlier puppy's questions:

     "What have you accomplished..?

Let's see. I spent 20 years in the entertainment industry working 60-100 hours weekly. I earned more in my best weeks than even the top 1% of you will earn in your best year in practice. I earned multiple Emmy Awards.

Then I cashed out. Bought rental property and stocks and started several online businesses, and moved to a rural location in Arizona. I spend my time with my 3 kids, playing, getting them to activities, and loving life.  I have no mortgage debt, no car payments, no credit card debt.

I decided to study law after my attorney in California offered me a full partnership as soon as I pass the CA bar, regardless of whether my school is T1 or T99. I'm studying because I find law fascinating. I'm at a DL school because I live 150 miles from the nearest B&M institution, and because I'm intensely disciplined and love working by myself.

You kids enjoy your prestigious school and bitchin' sheepskin. I'll keep my photocopied DL diploma and smile every time I look at the extra $150k burning a hole in my bank account.  ;D

See you in court.  8)
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: LegalLatin78 on January 19, 2007, 05:21:37 PM
@ lawafter40  ::)

Right.  Your multiple Emmy Awards and multi billion dollar empire that you are currently sitting on as you read Law School Discussion and instigate arguments with 22 year olds...  I can smell the bullsh*t from
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: LegalLatin78 on January 19, 2007, 05:23:16 PM
My views on distance learning and online law schools - if pass the bar, who cares where you went to law school. 
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: lawafter40 on January 19, 2007, 06:08:00 PM
@ lawafter40  ::)

Right.  Your multiple Emmy Awards and multi billion dollar empire that you are currently sitting on as you read Law School Discussion and instigate arguments with 22 year olds...  I can smell the bullsh*t from here...

Did I say "multi-billion?"

No, you did. You assumed, and made an ass out of yourself. I'm comfortable and semi-retired at 45. Not a billionaire by a long shot. I read the discussion this evening while my kids were all out of the house. As to the Emmys, I don't feel much compunction to prove myself to kids, sorry. Too bad if that bothers you, or you want to call BS on it. Doesn't bother me a whit.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to get ready to take my oldest kid downstate for a soccer game. If I grow to trust you (a dubious proposition at this moment) I may show you my resume, credits and Emmy citations. 'Till then, rest secure in your arrogance that you, above all people, are supremely correct and wonderful and blessed with the best BS detector on the intraweb.

Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: LegalLatin78 on January 19, 2007, 10:37:31 PM
The only person you are impressing lawafter40, is yourself.  Good for you, congratulations on your success.

I have lived/worked/grown up in Los Angeles and New York City.  I hear people make claims to being the Queen of England out here...
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: lawafter40 on January 20, 2007, 07:07:27 PM
The only person you are impressing lawafter40, is yourself.  Good for you, congratulations on your success.

I have lived/worked/grown up in Los Angeles and New York City.  I hear people make claims to being the Queen of England out here...

...and every waiter has a script. And every gaffer wants to direct. What's your point, if you're capable of making one?

I wasn't trying to impress anyone. I was responding to asinine and ignorant comments with factual rebuttal. You're boring me, child.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: rev on January 20, 2007, 08:23:55 PM
as i recall, attorneys used to apprentice to those already in practice, and then sit for the bar, without benefit of "formal" training at all.

the aba is now talking about requiring an apprenticeship, much like a medical internship, after graduation.

Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: hatelaw on January 21, 2007, 02:10:51 PM
My views on distance learning and online law schools - if pass the bar, who cares where you went to law school. 

Everyone cares otherwise you would not put it on your resume.  When you go into an interview, which with a non-aba degree you will never have the chance to do, they care about where you went to school and your class rank.
Title: Amazing.
Post by: lawafter40 on January 21, 2007, 05:33:56 PM
At what point did I say I anticipated having to interview? You all may be correct with regards to a "traditional" path, but that's most assuredly not the path I've chosen. Were I to do so, I would move my family, or commute the 250 miles RT to my local ABA school. I will not be interviewing. I will not be working as an associate, praying to make partner. I have a partnership waiting for me with a close friend's firm. Why would they offer me, a lowly "DL" grad, a partnership? Because I bring 20 years of hard-core business experience to the table, which all you lofty T1 grads will spend the next two decades developing for yourself. Because I have run successful and unsuccessful businesses. I have had to meet payroll. I have hired and fired. I have litigated and been litigated against. I have written and signed more contracts than most of you will ever write, and know what works and what doesn't. My POS "DL" degree, and California license, will only serve to ratify the knowledge and skills which I already possess.

For a bunch of aspiring attorneys, this group, in general, does a very poor job of reading the facts as I lay them out, without interjecting your own bias into the argument.

See you in court.  ;D
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: LegalLatin78 on January 21, 2007, 11:00:07 PM
The only person you are impressing lawafter40, is yourself.  Good for you, congratulations on your success.

I have lived/worked/grown up in Los Angeles and New York City.  I hear people make claims to being the Queen of England out here...

...and every waiter has a script. And every gaffer wants to direct. What's your point, if you're capable of making one?

I wasn't trying to impress anyone. I was responding to asinine and ignorant comments with factual rebuttal. You're boring me, child.

And you are apparently too stupid to know sarcasm when you read it.  I said multi-billion dollar empire because you make it sound like you have been there and done it all.  You preach to us about your DL education, and your full partnership upon graduation, but you are probably completely full of *&^%, or the firm you will be joining will consist of 1 or 2 lawyers.  All of your posts are the same, confrontational and self indulging. 

Also, calling me a child is quite stupid.  You are a few years older than I am, but you hardly act it.  I am quite sure I have seen much more of this world then you could ever dream of...
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: LegalLatin78 on January 21, 2007, 11:02:13 PM
My views on distance learning and online law schools - if pass the bar, who cares where you went to law school. 

Everyone cares otherwise you would not put it on your resume.  When you go into an interview, which with a non-aba degree you will never have the chance to do, they care about where you went to school and your class rank.

If you pass the bar, there will be plenty of job available.  I know that class rank, school, etc matter if you want to go corporate, but most people that go DL have different goals...
Title: Re: Amazing.
Post by: LegalLatin78 on January 21, 2007, 11:03:57 PM
At what point did I say I anticipated having to interview? You all may be correct with regards to a "traditional" path, but that's most assuredly not the path I've chosen. Were I to do so, I would move my family, or commute the 250 miles RT to my local ABA school. I will not be interviewing. I will not be working as an associate, praying to make partner. I have a partnership waiting for me with a close friend's firm. Why would they offer me, a lowly "DL" grad, a partnership? Because I bring 20 years of hard-core business experience to the table, which all you lofty T1 grads will spend the next two decades developing for yourself. Because I have run successful and unsuccessful businesses. I have had to meet payroll. I have hired and fired. I have litigated and been litigated against. I have written and signed more contracts than most of you will ever write, and know what works and what doesn't. My POS "DL" degree, and California license, will only serve to ratify the knowledge and skills which I already possess.

For a bunch of aspiring attorneys, this group, in general, does a very poor job of reading the facts as I lay them out, without interjecting your own bias into the argument.

See you in court.  ;D
Your insecurities are so glaring; I can see them from every post you make. You are very hung up on what these 'kids' think, it's hilarious.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: johns259 on January 21, 2007, 11:27:42 PM
To go DL and pass the CA bar, you must be good.

Kathleen Sullivan, the editor of my con law book and former dean of Stanford Law, failed the CA bar.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: lawafter40 on January 22, 2007, 06:51:50 AM
...All of your posts are the same, confrontational and self indulging. 

Also, calling me a child is quite stupid.  You are a few years older than I am, but you hardly act it.  I am quite sure I have seen much more of this world then you could ever dream of...


Actually, I took on the tone of the board. The BM students here act like a pack of deranged rabid dogs towards the DL students (see duckasourus, et al)

And, you infer a lot about me from a small number of posts. It's the ultimate in hubris and self-indulgence to assume you've seen "more of this world..." at such a young age. But, then again, at your age I felt the same way. Legallatin, of all the BM posters here, you appear to have more common sense than the rest.

To the rest: I didn't mean to knock the chip off your shoulder, just to challenge some of your assumptions. In general, this group needs to assume less and be more open to recognizing the difference between what things are, and what you want things to be.

Why is this argument so important to you traditional students that you'll take time away from your studies to visit a board not designed for you, and to beat up on a delusional "bitter old man?" Is this persona I chose really that threatening to you? Or are you acting out your hostility towards your professors here? How do you know I'm not really a professor in DL drag, trolling to see what happens?

You don't. You don't know anything except what I've allowed you to know.

Folks, in practice you will meet adversaries of all stripes. Don't make the mistake of believing that, because you graduated Yale, made Law Review, and are a general over-achiever, that it makes you the best. Granted, you may have raw skill, but, in spite of all your posturing here on this board, you are not seasoned. 20-year litigators will chew you up like a tasty little Scooby snack if you're not careful.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that, because your adversary has a 5th-rate degree, you'll be able to pound him or her into the sand. They passed the bar, same as you. There are so many other intangible skills that go into making a litigator, that for you to base your conclusion on only one item could prove fatal in practice.

Don't let your hubris get in front of your common sense.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: LegalLatin78 on January 22, 2007, 11:09:23 AM
To go DL and pass the CA bar, you must be good.

Kathleen Sullivan, the editor of my con law book and former dean of Stanford Law, failed the CA bar.

Agreed.

Lawafter40, I agree with you on many of your points.  Success is not measured on where you went to school, but on the results you can deliver in the real world.  I would never look down on anyone because of where they went to school.  If DL fits their needs, then I think it's a great option.  Also, a fancy law school and strong study habits does not guarantee you will pass the bar exam.  We had 3 associates who graduated in the top 20% of their Ivy League class fail the CA bar this year.  Penn, GTown, Harvard.  Go figure.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: lawafter40 on January 22, 2007, 04:28:10 PM


Lawafter40, I agree with you on many of your points.  Success is not measured on where you went to school, but on the results you can deliver in the real world.  I would never look down on anyone because of where they went to school.  If DL fits their needs, then I think it's a great option.  Also, a fancy law school and strong study habits does not guarantee you will pass the bar exam.  We had 3 associates who graduated in the top 20% of their Ivy League class fail the CA bar this year.  Penn, GTown, Harvard.  Go figure.

Exactly. What gets my dander up here is the broad overgeneralization that DL is uniformly for losers and cranks, and that B&M schools are the be-all and end-all of lawyerin'. Do DL schools attract a fair share of those who shouldn't be in the profession? Absolutely. Is it all the students? Not by a long shot.

Do traditional schools attract bright students? Hell yes. But there are a large number of extremely bright people practicing law, who graduated from high-end schools, who still can't lawyer their way out of a gunnysack. Law attracts more than it's fair share of overconfident power-tripping chowderheads.

DL has a high bar failure rate. But a fair number of DL students do manage to pass, every year. And a fair number of ABA students do manage to fail, every year. The great equalizer is that the ones who do pass, all passed the same exam, regardless of which school they attended.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: ladyofthelaw on January 27, 2007, 07:31:01 AM
There are soo many new lawyers for firms to choose from, why on Earth would a firm choose a non-aba graduate.  Granted most never pass the bar so there are few to chose from but still why would anyone hire a non-aba student.  (Insert here how the aba is bad yet your law school keeps trying to get approved).

If you pass the bar, there will be plenty of job available.  I know that class rank, school, etc matter if you want to go corporate, but most people that go DL have different goals...
[/quote]
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: LegalLatin78 on January 27, 2007, 10:40:50 AM
There are soo many new lawyers for firms to choose from, why on Earth would a firm choose a non-aba graduate.  Granted most never pass the bar so there are few to chose from but still why would anyone hire a non-aba student.  (Insert here how the aba is bad yet your law school keeps trying to get approved).

If you pass the bar, there will be plenty of job available.  I know that class rank, school, etc matter if you want to go corporate, but most people that go DL have different goals...


I will respond on the condition that you promise to learn how to use the quotes.   ;)

What if the DL student doesn't want to go work for a firm?  GASP!  Not everyone who goes to law school wants to work for a firm, you say?!  Amazing!  What if the DL student wants to start their own business, go into consulting, work in arbitration, mediation, financial enforcement in securities?  My point was if you pass the bar, and you go to a DL school, you will have many opportunities.  Also, I presume that many people who attend DL schools don't plan on going into Big Law.  And before you ask, no I don't attend a DL school; I attend an ABA school on a full ride.  I just support the idea that if you can pass the bar, then you have earned your right to practice law.

And just to respond to your question, of why a firm would choose a graduate from a non-ABA school over a graduate from an ABA school; what if the DL graduate has successfully litigated cases and won million dollar settlements.  All the while, the ABA graduate misses a filing deadline and illustrates to his boss that his lack experience has made him a liability.  Just one scenario I can imagine that would make the DL candidate very appealing to a firm.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: duckasourus on January 27, 2007, 03:04:31 PM
I am calling bs, first off most 75% never pass the bar.  Starting a sentence with AND indicates a lack of education, I highly doubt your claim of a full ride to an ABA school.  90% of new business's fail so I guess if you do the math most DLS will never pass the bar and those who do and start there own business will fail.  I passed my cpr test so I guess I am a doctor as I passed the test therefore I am qualified.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: DO/JD on January 27, 2007, 04:33:49 PM
90% of new business's fail so I guess if you do the math

Before pointing out other's alleged lack of education, perhaps, one should proofread one's posts... ;)
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: duckasourus on January 27, 2007, 04:41:52 PM
thats actually good gramar dumb ass.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: DO/JD on January 27, 2007, 05:05:22 PM
thats actually good gramar dumb ass.

When you learn the plural of business at your ABA law school come back and criticize DL law schools

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/business
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: LegalLatin78 on January 27, 2007, 06:09:42 PM
I am calling bs, first off most 75% never pass the bar.  Starting a sentence with AND indicates a lack of education, I highly doubt your claim of a full ride to an ABA school.  90% of new business's fail so I guess if you do the math most DLS will never pass the bar and those who do and start there own business will fail.  I passed my cpr test so I guess I am a doctor as I passed the test therefore I am qualified.

You can call whatever you want, but the simple fact is you CAN begin a sentence with a conjunction (you must be sure that what follows it is an independent clause, capable of standing alone as a sentence). 

Don't be jealous duckasourus.  Are you so insecure that you have to attack DL students?  I am willing to bet you are a bitter little man.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: LegalLatin78 on January 27, 2007, 06:14:58 PM
thats actually good gramar dumb ass.

When you learn the plural of business at your ABA law school come back and criticize DL law schools

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/business

LOL Yes.  Officially owned.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: legallygray on January 27, 2007, 06:24:27 PM
"there own business"...do you mean "their"?
"Thats actually good gramar"...do you mean "that's actually good grammar"?
Hope you all do better proofreading your exams...

Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: LegalLatin78 on January 28, 2007, 12:09:05 AM
;D

Good stuff!
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: jessicahart on January 28, 2007, 02:43:58 AM
wow the dls are soo defensive.  my guess is they are upset from not getting into an aba school.  I am not saying I agree with Duckasourur but he is right when he says you have a severe disadvantage compared to aba students.  I have to agree with the logic of why hire a non aba instead of an aba.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: jacy85 on January 28, 2007, 05:47:59 AM
Starting a sentence with AND indicates a lack of education.

I can guess that at least someone hear learned grammar by using MS Word...  ::)

It is completely acceptable to being a sentence with And or But.

"TOMBSTONE: It's wrong to start a sentence with and or but.
        R.I.P. But why is it wrong? There's no law against occasionally using and or but to begin a sentence.

Over the years, some English teachers have enforced the notion that and and but should be used only to join elements within a sentence, not to join one sentence with another. Not so. It's been common practice to begin sentences with them since at least as far back as the tenth century. But don't overdo it or your writing will sound monotonous."

http://www.grammarphobia.com/grammar.html (http://www.grammarphobia.com/grammar.html)

Also, http://www-writing.berkeley.edu/wab/1-1-grammar.htm (http://www-writing.berkeley.edu/wab/1-1-grammar.htm)
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: duckasourus on January 28, 2007, 06:38:47 AM
you are qouting Berkeley, not exactely a neutral source,  AND is a connector and should not be used at the start of a sentence, please do it on your cover letter though so my secretary can rejcet you, granted my firm only interviews aba students.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: jacy85 on January 28, 2007, 09:36:15 AM
Um...sure, whatever you say.

Those were a couple of internet sources I found.  I also own a grammar "handbook", and it also says sentences may begin with "and" and "but."  Several attorneys I have worked for have said the same.

And if you want any more proof that you're wrong, here you go:
http://www.businesswritingblog.com/business_writing/2005/11/but_its_okay_an.html (http://www.businesswritingblog.com/business_writing/2005/11/but_its_okay_an.html)
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19961105 (http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19961105)
http://home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/myths.htm (http://home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/myths.htm)
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/nonerrors.html (http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/nonerrors.html)
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/sentences.htm (http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/sentences.htm)
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/b.html (http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/b.html)

This is just from the first page of a google search.  Used sparingly, and or but can be an effective way to begin a sentence.

It's ok though.  I know you don't like to admit that you're wrong.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: dorsia on January 28, 2007, 09:47:53 AM
Not to get too caught up with this argument, but using "and" to begin a sentence is perfectly acceptable.  See Chicago Manual of Style, R. 5.191.

On a completely different topic, however, I would advise not to begin a sentence with the word "however."  Use "but" instead.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: LegalLatin78 on January 28, 2007, 10:08:03 AM
How much are you willing to bet duckasourus isn't even a law student?  He is probably just some loser that trolls LSD trying to stir sh*t up.  Go back to the pre-college board, good luck on your SAT.


By the way, Ernest Hemingway started sentences with conjunctions.  Many other writers do it as well.  I wouldn't do it on a legal document, but last I checked, this was a message board  ::) 

Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: lawafter40 on January 29, 2007, 10:59:37 AM
Ah, the ducksoupasaurus is back. After a lengthy hiatus, we've lured him out of retirement to engage in ad hominem attacks, random grammar and spelling misdemeanors, and pithy nonsense.

As to DL's being defensive, re-read the board. There are a relatively small number of DL students here. All mature (bitter old folks), all with success in other careers prior to entering law. Every time one of us surfaces, we're swarmed by a hungry mob of ABA pirahna, eager to pick the flesh from our unworthy bones.

Ducky babe - bring it on. But I'd sincerely appreciate it if you'd re-take your remedial English Comp class before entering this particular fray, my friend. ;D
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: rev on January 29, 2007, 04:35:21 PM
you are qouting Berkeley, not exactely a neutral source,  AND is a connector and should not be used at the start of a sentence, please do it on your cover letter though so my secretary can rejcet you, granted my firm only interviews aba students.

i hope your secretary is being paid a million dollars.


her spell/grammar-checker must spontaneously combust every time you send her a document.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: lawafter40 on January 29, 2007, 05:12:00 PM
wow the dls are soo defensive.  my guess is they are upset from not getting into an aba school.  I am not saying I agree with Duckasourur but he is right when he says you have a severe disadvantage compared to aba students.  I have to agree with the logic of why hire a non aba instead of an aba.

Funny, your writing is as poor as the Ducktard's.

I'm not upset about not getting into a non ABA school. I was admitted to Cal many years ago, long before you were even a hormone circulating in your dad's scrotum. But I chose to enter another field instead, and am now returning to law.

However, I live many hundred miles away from an ABA school, and the path I'm on won't require an ABA sheepskin, only a Bar ticket. So, please justify your assertion that I "have a severe disadvantage (sic)." I would argue that I am at a disadvantage if my "fake" degree and bar license prevent me from doing something which I would like to do. Please read these boards, 'fresh up on my background, and then 'splain to me, Lucy, why I will be at a loss. Remember this:

Biglaw doesn't interest me at all. Not one whit. Feh. Blech. Not for me at all.

Discuss.  ;D
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: jcarroll17 on February 18, 2007, 04:01:08 AM
Read the LSD boardsite and the posts of the traditional law students partying at their solid tier level non-toilet law schools and who can barely stay on the subject for two posts and compare them with the discussions of the DL law school students who at least seem seriously interested in learning about law. Then tell me about "standards".


Because behavior on a discussion board is indicative of the kind of attorney a person will be.  Have any statistics to support that?


guys seriously, why are you not able to at least pull a 143 and go to cooley? seriously? the ave attorney does about 150-155, and only makes about $30-$40k. if you cannot atleast do 143, are you really sure you want to be a lawyer? spending the rest of your career doing something that is really hard for you is not fun at all. it doesnt mean youre dumb, just means your mind doesnt work that way.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: JoeBob on February 22, 2007, 07:51:54 PM
I do not get how someone can honestly claim a DL school is a better choice.  I am sure at some point DL schools will be recognized, but first they need to improve their standards.  Right now they accept students with very low LSAT scores, which some will say is a biased test, but fact of the matter is that it is an ok test for determining ability.  Once DLs stop accepting anyone who just has a dream of becoming a lawyer they may be recognized.  Right now though they accept basically everyone, and as such will not be competitive with ABA schools.
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: TDJD84 on February 22, 2007, 07:59:46 PM
hmmm, I wonder what the job placement distribution is at a DL.  I mean I doubt most DL students are aiming for a big firm job or judicial clerkship.  And since that is the case, not to bash anyone, but aren't they only slightly worse off than tier 3/4 students at the bottom of their class in terms of job prospects?
Title: Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
Post by: uart on February 23, 2007, 08:24:05 AM
Also as for-profit law schools are being allowed now...various
states will realize...theres money to be made in online law schools.

And that money won't be made by online law students. Do you really think for-profit education is a good idea?