Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Canadian Law Students => Topic started by: ace0260 on February 27, 2005, 12:46:06 PM

Title: Queen's reputation
Post by: ace0260 on February 27, 2005, 12:46:06 PM
Quick question...when applying to American law schools, is Queen's seen as a reputable school in the same light as UofT and McGill or is going to Queen's like going to Concordia or York aka not an advantage.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on February 27, 2005, 01:11:02 PM
no, its not.  Unfortunately, no US schools will have heard of Queens.

For example, Yale interviewed at 2 schools - Mcgill and Toronto.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: ace0260 on February 27, 2005, 01:27:22 PM
Wow not at all? So in that regard, UofT and McGill are the best choices?

I would go to UofT but I have heard that the grading is killer and gpa is important for law school
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on February 27, 2005, 02:31:27 PM
the grading is killer, and the courses are probably a bit harder - but this is also the reason they're known in the US right?

I wouldn't put too much wait on it.  I go to UofT, so I can't speak on behalf of someone applying to the US from another school.  I do know a guy at chicago though who went to UofA.  hth
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: ace0260 on February 27, 2005, 03:18:50 PM
Ok so cheeks, Id appreciate some advice because im real confused

Im an american in Canada and I have the option of going to several undergrads in the states like George Washington, Lehigh, Boston U, Miami etc.

Id prefer to stay in Canada over those schools (of course im still receiving acceptance offers from others)...is that going to ultimately hurt me (because of grading differences etc) or am I going to be on par because UofT/McGill have a solid reputations. Is it possible that going to McGill/UofT will present an advantage over the afformentioned American schools? Thanks
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on February 27, 2005, 04:26:08 PM
honestly, i have no idea.

I would think that UofT/Mcgill might have an advantage over the schools you mentioned, but its pretty hard to measure these things.  One thing you can do, is go to say Harvard's website, or Columbia, whatever ... and check to see where their students come from.  UofT and Mcgill will most likely be listed - but I'm not so sure about queens or Lehigh. 
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Tino on February 27, 2005, 11:46:29 PM
I dont disagree that schools like UFT and McGill are better known in the States, but you shouldnt let that override your decision.  In the end if you have the grades and the LSAT you have a chance of getting into most schools.  I know of a few students from good old YORK U that managed to get accepted into Harvard this year... so it definately can be done...
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on February 28, 2005, 07:24:11 AM
for sure it can be done from any school in Canada, like Tino said.  I was just going through the UChicago Viewbook and noticed that they had a student from the University of Winnipeg studying there. 
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: ace0260 on February 28, 2005, 01:37:34 PM
Ok well I heard somewhere that law schools somehow look at your undergraduate university's mean (or median) lsat and mean (or median) gpa as a way of indicating the caliber of school you attended...can anyone confirm this?

And isnt this a way of finding out where your school stands in the crowd?
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on February 28, 2005, 03:34:34 PM
yes they do ...

High LSAT average -> you go to a good school
High GPA -> grades are inflated (a bad thing)

However, this really doesn't mean anything for Canadian schools. 

Canadian GPA's are SUPER low.  Way lower than most US schools.  So are grades aren't inflated for sure, but they're difficult to compare.  And...Canadian school's LSAT averages are incredibly Low.  UofT's is like 155 or something like that.  Probably because canadians aren't use to standardized tests.  Either way, schools won't take either of those numbers too seriously.

If I were you, I would go to a school you'll enjoy studying at, and concentrate and do your best.  Get good grades, and the rest will fall into place.  A lot is going ot change before you apply to law school.  If you start stressing about it now, you'll end up in a huge mess...just enjoy school.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: ace0260 on February 28, 2005, 03:49:07 PM
ok thanks cheeks...how do u like UofT? and when should I prepare for law school, begin studying lsats, apply etc
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on February 28, 2005, 04:16:19 PM
UofT is a factory ... but that's another story.

I wouldn't worry about law school until your third year.  Just have fun!
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: ace0260 on February 28, 2005, 04:30:30 PM
k awesome...wait so do u recommend UofT (polisci)?

also, when lsac figures out the gpa's...do they do it out of 4.33 or 4? and do they do it different for canadians?
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: lizo27 on February 28, 2005, 04:32:30 PM

also, when lsac figures out the gpa's...do they do it out of 4.33 or 4? and do they do it different for canadians?

I don't know if it's different for Canadians (doubt it), but when the LSAC converted my UGPA they marked an A+ as 4.33 points.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: ace0260 on February 28, 2005, 05:48:51 PM
Oh really? because on the lsac website the maximum gpa possible for the law school search is 4.0
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on February 28, 2005, 05:51:54 PM
it's 4.33
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: lizo27 on February 28, 2005, 06:02:39 PM
I don't know about the law school search on LSAC, but I'm almost certain that's how they converted my GPA. I have a 4.06 on my academic summary report anyway, and I didn't get it from my college.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on February 28, 2005, 07:09:38 PM
k awesome...wait so do u recommend UofT (polisci)?

UofT is a good school, but I'm not sure if I would recommend it.  If you want to talk about UofT, or my experience with the school, why don't you PM me and I'll add you to MSN or something.  maybe it'll be easier.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: The Overman on March 08, 2005, 09:05:30 PM
A good law school will be familiar with all of the top Canadian schools.  I have a friend who went to Western and he's attending law school at NYU.  He had no troubles based on his undergraduate school.  Schools like Queens and Western are definitely known to US schools.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 09, 2005, 05:22:12 AM
A good law school will be familiar with all of the top Canadian schools.  I have a friend who went to Western and he's attending law school at NYU.  He had no troubles based on his undergraduate school.  Schools like Queens and Western are definitely known to US schools.

Queens and Western are definitely not known to US schools; they really aren't even known to Canadians.  Both schools are middle of the pack in Canada, and the US would see them as such.  That said, going to Queens or Western isn't going to hurt your application either, it just won't help. 

EDIT:  stop NYU trolling
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: long_gone on March 09, 2005, 08:59:29 AM
Queens and Western are definitely not known to US schools; they really aren't even known to Canadians.

Canadians certainly know of Queen's.  Its reputation as a private school wannabe and a general school for the rich are well-known amongst the public.    Not sure if this is good or bad ;)
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: The Overman on March 09, 2005, 11:39:58 AM
Queens and Western are middle of the pack Canadian schools and aren't known to Canadians?  That's just crazy talk.  If you're American than I can understand why you might be misinformed or confused.  However, if you're Canadian I'm at a total loss for a reason to explain such a terribly incorrect statement.  Western and Queens are two of the top universities in Canada and are known to any Canadian who knows anything about universities.  I reccomend that you read the latest Macleans University Report Card, as I'm sure you will find it very informative.  These are two of the most difficult schools in Canada to get accepted at.  This is not my opinion, it is a fact that Queens has the highest entrance average in the country and Western has the third or fourth highest.  I apologize for ranting at you and coming across as harsh, but I feel it's important that you get your facts straight.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 09, 2005, 01:20:09 PM
Why do you "feel its important I get the facts straight"?  Why would you ever care what I think ... anyways, my rebutal is as follows ...

I'm Canadian and don't go to either Queens or Western.

With that said, sure, I've heard of Queens and I've heard of Western.  As have my friends, as have people that are in the academic circle.  However, if you went up to joe guy on the street, and asked him if he's heard of Western, he would most likely reply with "yeah, its a school".  Would he know that it has a decent business school?  No.  Would he know what its ranking in the Macleans University Report?  No. 

Queens and Western are fine schools, as most of the universities in Canada are.  I'm not saying that they're not good schools.  But they are FAR from the best in Canada, and arguing over this is pointless.  Mcgill and Toronto are both far superior!  You site one statistic ... difficult to get accepted at ... this is only one factor that contibutes to overall quality.  Furthermore, you said, Western and Queens are "two of the top" in Canada.  There aren't that many schools in Canada!  There's no t14 here.  There are groups, UT Mcgill, then schools like Queens, western, mac, etc, and then some bottom schools. 

Also, the debate over whether or not US schools recognize that Queens or Western are top schools is closed.  They don't.  They view them as another "Canadian" school.  The US adcoms aren't sitting there spliting hairs over which is better, Mac or Western, trust me ... its UofT, Mcgill, the rest, as far as they're concerned. 
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: The Overman on March 09, 2005, 02:10:40 PM
I never said that Western and Queens were the top two schools in Canada.  I merely said that they were two of the best in Canada.  It cannot be disputed that these schools are in the top five and although there aren't that many universities in Canada that's still really good and can hardly be called middle of the pack.  I agree that UofT and Mcgill are more highly regarded and probably better schools, however Western and Queens are not as far behind as you are suggesting.  According to you the American law schools are so ignorant of Canadian universities that when applying it wouldn't matter if you had an HBA from Ivey or a media studies degree from Brock because both are just "another Canadian school".  I was told by the Dean of Admissions at UofT's law school that they carefully consider the quality of an applicant's undergraduate institution.  This seems to me like a policy that any good law school would have.  Yet you seem to think that the top American law schools are completely ignorant of the quality of Canadian schools, except for UofT and Mcgill.  I totally agree that they would regard these two schools as being superior to the rest, but I don't believe that all other Canadian universities are lumped together and considered of equal quality.  Your claim just doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 09, 2005, 02:25:07 PM
I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue anymore..

I didn't group all schools together; I said that there's a top tier, a middle (to which W and Q belong), and a bottom tier.  Why would someone pick Q over a school like UBC or Mac or UVic.  I doubt its because Q is a much better school.  More likely would be that such individual would rather spend their time studying in kingston, or for some intangible reason like that.

"According to you the American law schools are so ignorant of Canadian universities that when applying it wouldn't matter if you had an HBA from Ivey or a media studies degree from Brock because both are just "another Canadian school"."

Okay, that's just ridiculous.  You're taking extreme points.  However, if you ask a US adcom is they know what Ivey is, they will say No 99% of the time.  Even at the top YHS.  Again, I told you that when Yale recruited in Canada, they only did so at Mcgill and Toronto.  Honestly, though, if a brock finance student has a higher GPA than the Ivey kid, I gaurentee you that all else equal, a US school takes the Brock kid.  Every time.

"I was told by the Dean of Admissions at UofT's law school that they carefully consider the quality of an applicant's undergraduate institution"

we're not debating Canadian law school practices, so I don't knwo why you brought this up.  However, I've submitted a study on such admission practices which shows the contrary of what you suggest (for most Canadian law schools).  That said, UofT wasn't in the study, and I tend to believe your statement applies to them.

Either way, Western and Queens are in a group of a Canadian schools, probably 10-15 of them, which can pretty much be considered equal.  They're very good schools, but to suggest their minute differences are known by US adcoms is ludicris.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: The Overman on March 09, 2005, 02:31:21 PM
Furthermore, if you went up to the average person on the street and asked them about UofT or Mcgill, they wouldn't likely be able to tell you much about those schools either.  So your point about people not knowing all about the quality of Western or Queens, or what programs they are known for, doesn't prove anything. Also, if you conducted this little "experiment" in Ontario, people would likely know a lot more about Queens or Western then they do about Mcgill.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: The Overman on March 09, 2005, 02:52:35 PM
UofT is an excellent law school and many consider it to be in a different league than other Canadian law schools.  It's certainly the most difficult school to get into, although I realize that isn't the only thing that's important.  Most of the other Canadian law schools that I've talked to said that they don't consider what school your undergrad degree is from, so your study is most likely correct.  That said, I feel that UofT is a better law school than the others and their stricter admissions policy is part of the reason for this.  You possess the view that the top American schools have a much more lax admission policy and don't consider the quality of the applicant's school.  Or maybe you feel that they do care, except if you went to a Canadian school and then they don't bother to look into it.  A school whose admissions board considers a degree from Brock to be equivalent to a degree from Queens is not making a very good effort to ensure that they accept only the very best applicants.  A school that doesn't bother to find out that a 3.8 gpa at Brock is nowhere near equivalent to a 3.8 gpa at Queens, can hardly be said to have a very effective admissions policy.  Maybe you're right and the top US schools just don't care what Canadian school you went to.  I'd like to think that they are a little more discerning in their consideration of Canadain applicants.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: long_gone on March 09, 2005, 03:14:28 PM
I don't even know why I'm bothering with this but:

That said, I feel that UofT is a better law school than the others and their stricter admissions policy is part of the reason for this.

I wouldn't doubt it's a part of the reason, but nowhere near the whole story.  McGill doesn't even require an LSAT and its GPA requirments are below more than one school, but it still manages to do just fine.  I'd say the amount of $$$ the school has matters, but then look at McGill again.  Maybe I'd say research matters, but then look at McGill yet again in the last ten years...  The issue of 'reputation' is a complex one.

As for this:

A school that doesn't bother to find out that a 3.8 gpa at Brock is nowhere near equivalent to a 3.8 gpa at Queens, can hardly be said to have a very effective admissions policy.

No offense, how exactly do you know that your Queen's GPA is superior?  Have you studied extensively at Brock?  Have you looked at their curve subject-by-subject and compared them with Queen's?  Or are you just buying into the old 'if you can walk and talk you can go to Brock.'

Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: The Overman on March 09, 2005, 03:40:35 PM
You are totally right caecilius, reputation is a complex issue.  Someone could certainly argue that UofT is not the best law school in Canada.  That said, the reason I know that Brock is an inferior school is simply entrance averages.  While I know grades aren't everything it's common sense that if school A's entrance average is 88% and school B's entrance average is 73%, that the former is going to have a far superior student body.  I don't mean to say that if you go to Brock it isn't entirely possible that you're a genius.  But people are evaluated in relation to their peers and the higher the intelligence of your peers, the harder it is to get good marks. 

Now that I've answered your question I would like to pose the same one to Cheeks.  How exactly do you know that UofT and Mcgill are so superior to the rest?


By the way for the record I don't go to Queens.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: long_gone on March 09, 2005, 03:45:43 PM
That said, the reason I know that Brock is an inferior school is simply entrance averages.

This can be valid, but it tells us nothing about grading practices of Brock itself.  Therefore, we still don't know if it is any easier to achieve a 3.8 in Brock, because we don't know the curve (official or unofficial).
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 09, 2005, 04:29:31 PM
CG - out of curiousity, have you applied to law school?
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 09, 2005, 04:33:46 PM
Most of the other Canadian law schools that I've talked to said that they don't consider what school your undergrad degree is from, so your study is most likely correct. 

ps - well I'm glad.  :-\
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: The Overman on March 09, 2005, 07:40:50 PM
Caecilius you make a good point concerning the grading curve.  However, it doesn't seem at all likely that a school like Brock would have the grading set in such a way that their students in general had lower marks than most other schools.  I agree with you that reputations are a complicated matter, but Brock has a mediocre reputation at best.  In most cases it is quite poorly regarded.  Now this reputation may not in fact be warranted, but nonetheless it is possessed by Brock.  Graduates coming out of a school with a poor reputation and having low grades are not likely to fare too well in the world.  Granted, the school might want to make the grading extra hard in hopes of improving their reputation, but this probably isn't the case. 

No Cheeks I have not applied to law school yet as I'm only in third year.  I've no doubt that this fact will lead you to conclude that I know little about the process.  It simply seems reasonable to me that any good law school would carefully consider the quality of each applicant's program and undergraduate school, regardless of whether they are familiar with that school.   
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: bballjones on March 09, 2005, 10:02:19 PM
Since this thread's all about making blanket statements such as UofT and McGill are #1 and 2 in Canada, I'm gonnna make a blanket statement of my own.  Nobody here knows what they're talking about.  Honestly, how the hell do any one of us know what the Adcoms are thinking.  Like its been said, prestige and reputation are so subjective I don't understand how anyone can say for sure that Adcoms don't recogonize any schools in Canada other than UofT or McGill.  I also think that its a little naive to think that Adcoms don't know about the Ivey program at Western or the CompSci program at Waterloo for example.  Just looking at the admiteed class at harvard, there were 3 from UofT, 2 from McGill, Waterloo and Western.  Granted the stat's not that meaningful, but it sure doesn't look like its dominated by UofT or McGill.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: The Overman on March 09, 2005, 10:24:02 PM
I agree with you b ball.  I'm glad you brought up those Harvard statistics as well.  Explain to me Cheeks, how Harvard Law can accept two students from Western and two from Waterloo and then suddenly forget these schools exist?
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 10, 2005, 04:08:08 AM
I agree with you b ball.  I'm glad you brought up those Harvard statistics as well.  Explain to me Cheeks, how Harvard Law can accept two students from Western and two from Waterloo and then suddenly forget these schools exist?

you haven't listened to a word i've said.  and i have no idea why i'm arguing about this.  whatever, good luck if you want to go to law school.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Quest82 on March 10, 2005, 06:38:13 PM
Why would someone pick Q over a school like UBC or Mac or UVic.  I doubt its because Q is a much better school. 

Are you drunk?
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 10, 2005, 07:01:23 PM
Why would someone pick Q over a school like UBC or Mac or UVic.  I doubt its because Q is a much better school. 

Are you drunk?

am i suppose to reply to this?  if you would like to make a comment, please try and at least sound intelligent. 

hth.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: long_gone on March 10, 2005, 07:39:52 PM
LSD Canada is now officially one step away from lawbuzz :) :(
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 10, 2005, 08:38:07 PM
lawbuzz is undisputed champ of the TTT law discussion boards.  Nothing can even compare...
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: long_gone on March 10, 2005, 08:47:01 PM
This thread is coming pretty close.

Time to hijack--where have you decided to go Cheeks?
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 10, 2005, 09:11:45 PM
probably columbia, but i'm still thinking about UofT.  You?  oz?
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: long_gone on March 10, 2005, 10:22:48 PM
Very nice.  Did you get the chance to see Columbia?

Oz is almost certain at this point.  It's the most logical choice for me, although I really wish I could somehow combine UWO and Oz together  ;)
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Temporary Relief Assistant Trailer Park Supervisor on March 16, 2005, 09:29:47 AM
Cheeks, how can you say Queens is middle of the road as far as Canadian universities go?!?!?  According to the Maclean's reputational ranking (from surveys of CEOs, recruiters at big corporations and university oficials) Queen's is 3rd overall (ahead of Mcgill), and 1st in overall quality.  Western ranks 9th overall out of 47 schools, and is definitely above average.  Queens' entering class has the best highschool grades in the country, including 11.6% with 95% or higher in highschool (compared to 6.6 and 5 at UofT and Mcgill, respectively), and 100% with highschool averages over 75%.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 16, 2005, 10:06:45 AM
First off, @#!* macleans.  Secondly, @#!* entering averages.  How come when someone argues over two schools, its always ONLY talk about the entering averages.  There is a whole lot more to a school.  If you want to argue about this, stop citing these TTT sources.

Maybe there are 47 schools in Canada, but it is absolutely ridiculous to compare Queens to University of Alberta, for instance.  Why?  Fine, Queens is a better school - we all agree on this, but will Queens place better in Edmonton compared with UofA.  NO.  If two people for a job in Edmonton, both equally qualified, except one with to UofA, the other to Queens, who gets the job?  The UofA kid.  You have to compare schools within their market.

And fine, Queens might be "ranked" #3 in Canada ... but regionally, are they better than UofT, Mcgill, Montreal, Western for economics?  No.  Or how about life sciences, cause they don't make top 5 there either.  With that said, they might be first in another category...

Point being, Queens, Western, Mac, Waterloo, yada yada yada, can all be placed in the same category when it comes to quality of school.  I'm not including School X from the NWT here, because it makes no f-ing sense to compare the two.

Finally, this is how I compare universities:  Job placement, and Academic Placement - because this is why everyone goes to school.  They want a job or they want to continue there education.  There are a number of schools in Canada that absolutely destroy queens and western in these categories.  Nothing else matters.  You might argue that Queens has a better engineering department than say mcgill, but if mcgill has a higher placement rate - then no one cares how great queens is. 

I'm not arguing about this anymore.  This is my last post on this topic.

EDIT:  I thought about this a little more...

@#!*, Are you HONESTLY trying to convince me that Queens and Western are the top schools in Canada?  I mean, @#!*.  This is ridiculous.  I'm pretty sure that its widely understood that Toronto absolutely puts these schools to shame.  Sorry, I could careless that Macleans has Queen's as #1 in "overall quality".  What a joke!   
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: bballjones on March 16, 2005, 11:30:34 AM
Cheeks,

Even if you consider Macleans and entering averages to be third tier toilet sources, at least Nick cited some semblance of hard evidence to back up his view.  All I've heard from you is your personal claim that U of T is the best school in Canada and that everyone knows this and if we don't then we should go get a clue.  I should give you more credit, you also used hypos in your last post.  So you know for sure the UofA will get the job?  How about the UofA kid against the UofT kid ceteris paribus? 

And yes, Macleans and entering averages should not be the ONLY critera for judging schools but they are HARDLY third tier toilet sources.  You can disagree with the particular weightings but I find that most of the factors in the rankings are valid and reasonable.  Also, Nick cited specifically the reputional rankings based only on surveys of CEO's, recruiters etc.  Considering that these are the people who make the decisions that directly affect your holy grail of criteria, placement rates, why do you consider this to be a third tier toilet source?

Entering averages are commonly cited as a good (not the only) indication of a school's quality because it reflects the quality of the student body, the selectivity and attractiveness of the school.  I would also argue that Recruiters and Admissions look very closely at entering averages which will again have a direct effect on your criteria of placement rates.  Do you really belive entering averages to be a third tier toilet source?  Why do Law schools and Law firms care so much about the entering GPA and LSAT then?

You state that placement rate is the #1 critera in your rankings.  Does UofT have the highest job and school placement rates in the Country?

Quote
This is ridiculous.  I'm pretty sure that its widely understood that Toronto absolutely puts these schools to shame
 
By widely understood, do you mean the student population of U of T?  Just curious.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Temporary Relief Assistant Trailer Park Supervisor on March 16, 2005, 11:47:10 AM
I realize Mcgill and U of T are, and always have been, the universities with the most name recognition.  Most of the political and business leaders of the country went to one of these 2 schools, and the connections are unequalled.  The Southern Ontario market has numerous universities of good quality, so I agree that you might be better off going to alberta for a job in edmonton then going to queen's for a job in toronto.  I wasn't trying to argue that Queen's and Western were the top 2 schools in the country, only that they seem to have a reputation of being in the top 5 or 10 nationally (even if that doesn't mean better oppurtunities).

p.s. Was your mention of Queen's being behind U of T, Montreal, Western, Mcgill for economics about their undergraduate program?  I read in some report by UCalgary that Queens MA in Econ is considered atleast top4 (along with UofT, Mac, and UBC) and well ahead of Montreal, Western, and Mcgill .   
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 16, 2005, 11:49:28 AM
I'm not debating this anymore.  To each his own...
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Quest82 on March 21, 2005, 01:16:38 PM
p.s. Was your mention of Queen's being behind U of T, Montreal, Western, Mcgill for economics about their undergraduate program?  I read in some report by UCalgary that Queens MA in Econ is considered atleast top4 (along with UofT, Mac, and UBC) and well ahead of Montreal, Western, and Mcgill .   

Don't listen to Cheeks.  It's obvious that he deliberately chooses to ignore published data - but would rather come up with his own unsubstantiated claims.

I will agree that Macleans rankings are largely meaningless, but concerning Queen's, there are other studies that have come to the same conclusion - i.e. the University Report Card, prepared by the Globe & Mail - where Queen's ranked #1 in Canada for "Quality of Education".



Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 21, 2005, 02:18:19 PM
damn it, why do i keep posting here...

For a tangible claim, in a study that I'm working on with the help of several schools, I had to bump Queen's out of the "top tier" schools, based on it's Macleans Doctoral/Professional Ranking, and other published data which assesses the school's quality.  hth.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Quest82 on March 22, 2005, 06:10:12 AM
damn it, why do i keep posting here...

For a tangible claim, in a study that I'm working on with the help of several schools, I had to bump Queen's out of the "top tier" schools, based on it's Macleans Doctoral/Professional Ranking, and other published data which assesses the school's quality.  hth.

LOL.  How about we just conclude that, in YOUR opinion, Queen's isn't a top tier university. Instead of trying to cite unnamed, yet to be published studies, we are stuck with Macleans and the University Report Card - and both of them tend to disagree with your opinion. 
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 22, 2005, 08:17:01 AM
I'm sure you'll get into a law school somewhere ...   :-*
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Quest82 on March 22, 2005, 11:05:00 AM
look, just because you go to queens, and are just now realizing that you will be stuck in a deadend job, slave to some Mcgill/UofT grad, doesn't mean you have to get all upset.  I'm sure you'll get into a law school somewhere ...   :-*

LOL, I've already graduated law school. But don't worry, I'm eagerly awaiting the day I can send you to pick up my dry cleaning and carry my briefcase to court. Maybe then we can continue this discussion?   ;D
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 22, 2005, 11:26:20 AM
look, just because you go to queens, and are just now realizing that you will be stuck in a deadend job, slave to some Mcgill/UofT grad, doesn't mean you have to get all upset.  I'm sure you'll get into a law school somewhere ...   :-*

LOL, I've already graduated law school. But don't worry, I'm eagerly awaiting the day I can send you to pick up my dry cleaning and carry my briefcase to court. Maybe then we can continue this discussion?   ;D

still frequenting the pre-law board eh. hmmm.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Morgin on March 22, 2005, 01:19:39 PM
UVIC IS A BETTER SCHOOL THAN ALL OF THEM
[/s]
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: bballjones on March 22, 2005, 04:21:20 PM
look, just because you go to queens, and are just now realizing that you will be stuck in a deadend job, slave to some Mcgill/UofT grad, doesn't mean you have to get all upset.  I'm sure you'll get into a law school somewhere ...   :-*

Look, just because he called you on your bull and you have nothing to back up your substantiated claims other than to satisfy your need to feel superior, you don't have to act like a pompous condescending jackass.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 22, 2005, 06:44:10 PM
look, just because you go to queens, and are just now realizing that you will be stuck in a deadend job, slave to some Mcgill/UofT grad, doesn't mean you have to get all upset.  I'm sure you'll get into a law school somewhere ...   :-*

Look, just because he called you on your bull and you have nothing to back up your substantiated claims other than to satisfy your need to feel superior, you don't have to act like a pompous condescending jackass.

BBall, the above comment applies directly to you as well.  I'll let you know how I like my coffee at the interview.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: The Overman on March 22, 2005, 07:41:37 PM
Cheeks you haven't given a shred of evidence to support any of your claims.  You seem to think that just because you say something is a certain way that we should all believe you like you're some omniscient being.  I'm going to assume you've never taken a philosophy class because you couldn't form a decent argument to save your life.  You claim to be an expert on everything law school related and apparently have been accepted at all kinds of T-14 U.S. schools.  However, considering how full of crap you are in general, I wouldn't be surprised if your claims of acceptance are made-up as well.

Forget the University of Michigan, you probably couldn't get into Michigan State for law. 
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: bballjones on March 22, 2005, 08:51:04 PM
Quote
BBall, the above comment applies directly to you as well.  I'll let you know how I like my coffee at the interview.

Sure Cheeks, and if you decide to go to UofT, maybe you can tell it to me in person.  I look forward to it.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: The Overman on March 22, 2005, 09:45:05 PM
Oh yeah and what makes you think that anyone would publish some piece of $hit study that you claim you're conducting?  I think that's the funniest thing you've said yet Cheeks!  :D
I bet it's a really professional report though, full of made-up data since you love to base your claims on nothing.  Wait, I think I can predict the results of your study.  Your conclusion will be that UofT is the greatest school ever, Mcgill is second best and all other Canadian schools are garbage.  Wow, I must be psychic!
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 23, 2005, 05:38:58 AM
Quote
BBall, the above comment applies directly to you as well.  I'll let you know how I like my coffee at the interview.

Sure Cheeks, and if you decide to go to UofT, maybe you can tell it to me in person.  I look forward to it.

gladly, make sure you come and introduce yourself.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on March 23, 2005, 05:41:02 AM
However, considering how full of crap you are in general, I wouldn't be surprised if your claims of acceptance are made-up as well.

Forget the University of Michigan, you probably couldn't get into Michigan State for law. 

all made up.  you caught me.  nice work.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: RoseRed on April 02, 2005, 08:22:56 AM
So to sum it all up, we have some guy who is concerned about whether the university he is doing his undergraduate at will effect his law school admissions likelihood and some one who has already graduated from law school trying to force Cheeks into arguing with them on published grounds over whether or not Queen and Western are top Canadian universities.

Cheeks provided excellent argumentation as to why the overall quality of a university can be based on things other than entering averages. While maybe this does not disprove that Queens and Western are at the top it certainly shows that simply citing those stats is not grounds for sufficient evidence.

In addition, these so called authorities on the ranking of Canadian universities are not as grand as you make them out to be. Quest, you quote the Globe and Mail for having ranked Queens number one in providing "Quality Education". In a past issue of The Globe's University Report Card it listed medical schools at York University and the University of Waterloo among Canada's Top 10, though neither has a faculty of medicine. Further, The University of Waterloo's law school placed ninth, yet they do not offer a law degree. Quoting these rankings is not the same as quoting fact. There is no definitive means of ranking universities. So at the end of the day we are left with what Cheeks said, to each his own.

Finally, what are you, Quest, doing on a pre-law forum? The only excuse you could have is that you are here to help those with questions, which you are clearly not. I find it amusing that you actually thought that responding to Cheeks with the fact that you have graduated from law school would 'one-up' him. Through your posts you have managed to call your intelligence, your law school, and the potential future of your dry cleaning being picked up by a U of T or Columbia Law graduate into serious question.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Cheeks on April 02, 2005, 01:15:59 PM
hahaha, thanks RoseRed  :-*
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: The Overman on April 05, 2005, 01:00:10 PM
So to sum it all up, we have some guy who is concerned about whether the university he is doing his undergraduate at will effect his law school admissions likelihood and some one who has already graduated from law school trying to force Cheeks into arguing with them on published grounds over whether or not Queen and Western are top Canadian universities.


RoseRed, no one here said that they were worried about how their undergraduate school will affect their chances of being accepted into law school.  Some of us simply disagree with the opinions given by Cheeks.  Furthermore, you are incorrect in stating that Cheeks has given any sort of argument that could be labeled excellent.  While I totally agree that entering averages and published rankings are not everything, they are certainly worth something.  Cheeks has given no evidence whatsoever to support his claims.  Simply stating that UofT has better job and academic placement isn't enough.  Where's the proof to support this claim?     
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: Lawyer9843 on May 07, 2005, 08:23:26 PM
Entertaining thread!

Graduated Queen's 04 here.  From what I remember, everyone at my beloved alma mater could have went to McGill or U of T, we all just decided that we wanted the Queen's experience.

If this somehow means I am disadvantaged for jobs or academic advancement, then perhaps a cry-session is in order.

Cheeks is an idiot, he would have been eaten alive in K-Town.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: thedukeofmanhattan on May 10, 2005, 02:05:46 PM
Entertaining thread!

Graduated Queen's 04 here.  From what I remember, everyone at my beloved alma mater could have went to McGill or U of T, we all just decided that we wanted the Queen's experience.

If this somehow means I am disadvantaged for jobs or academic advancement, then perhaps a cry-session is in order.

Cheeks is an idiot, he would have been eaten alive in K-Town.

I imagine you are right that queens students are, on average, as good as McGill or U of T students. The only thing is, nobody has heard of Queens in the states. Go post this in the main forum, people will assume you are discussing a community college in Queens, NY. The law school admin people are probably better informed than most, so maybe they know that Queens is a very good school. I don't know, I doubt everybody does. Lawyer, if you are planning on staying in Canada, don't shed tears. If you want to go to the states, nobody will have heard of your school.
Title: Re: Queen's reputation
Post by: comeback kid on May 18, 2005, 04:09:12 PM
Although the average joe shmo american citizen may not know much about the canadian post secondary system, the same cannot be said for either adcoms OR potential employers. Here's a little anecdote for you about a girl I went to highschool with in a small town in buttcrack manitoba. This is her situation:

Worked in New York for Goldman Sachs after graduation with a degree in Finance

Recently entered Harvard business school to pursue an MBA

Got her undergrad from (drumrole...)





University of Calgary!

Not exactly like law school, but same kind of idea. This girl, from what some would call an "unknown" Canadian school, was not only accepted into a highly competitive academic program but also worked for one of the world's foremost investment firms. So for all you punks who think that U of T and McGill are the only possible way you can get accepted into T14 us schools AND find sweet bling bling NYC jobs, think again! Admissions departments and employers are a lot more knowledgable and aware of canadian schools than you give them credit for.