Law School Discussion

Is it T-14 or T-6

Re: Is it T-14 or T-6
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2008, 11:28:03 PM »
I think a lot of times people on this board mention the fact that MVPB and DNG are different in terms of BIGlaw and clerkship placement (or MVPB and CCN, for that matter), but HOW different doesn't get mentioned enough.

In terms of the difference, sure CCN may have a smaller threshold of students who don't make BIGlaw (bottom 10%) as opposed to Penn (or MVB), where the bottom 20% don't make it (these are just estimates, obviously.  I'm just trying to make a point).  The question that doesn't seem to get raised enough is how much of a difference this actually should make in an admissions decision.  I realize that it's very difficult to guarantee a spot high in your class, but you also have an 80-90% chance to fall inside these cutoffs.  In that case, the difference really is rather minimal.  Perhaps at that point, other factors such as clinics, feel, location, faculty, etc. could come into play with a vengeance.  This also applies to clerkships.  Location seems to be a critical factor in getting them, depending on Circuit location and networking/faculty connections. 

I'm not saying that prestige of school doesn't matter.  Not at all.  I realize that going to CCN makes getting clerkship/BIGlaw easier than MVPB, but to what degree?  Is the difference worth going to CCN over MVPB despite wanting to go to MVPB more for some reason or another? 

Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Is it T-14 or T-6
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2008, 10:24:33 AM »
I think a lot of times people on this board mention the fact that MVPB and DNG are different in terms of BIGlaw and clerkship placement (or MVPB and CCN, for that matter), but HOW different doesn't get mentioned enough.

In terms of the difference, sure CCN may have a smaller threshold of students who don't make BIGlaw (bottom 10%) as opposed to Penn (or MVB), where the bottom 20% don't make it (these are just estimates, obviously.  I'm just trying to make a point).  The question that doesn't seem to get raised enough is how much of a difference this actually should make in an admissions decision.  I realize that it's very difficult to guarantee a spot high in your class, but you also have an 80-90% chance to fall inside these cutoffs.  In that case, the difference really is rather minimal.  Perhaps at that point, other factors such as clinics, feel, location, faculty, etc. could come into play with a vengeance.  This also applies to clerkships.  Location seems to be a critical factor in getting them, depending on Circuit location and networking/faculty connections. 

I'm not saying that prestige of school doesn't matter.  Not at all.  I realize that going to CCN makes getting clerkship/BIGlaw easier than MVPB, but to what degree?  Is the difference worth going to CCN over MVPB despite wanting to go to MVPB more for some reason or another? 

Just my 2 cents.

another factor to take into consideration is what kind of "biglaw" prospects are available.  some people say what does it matter since all top firms pay the same base rate.  the conventional wisdom (as i see it) is that 1) it matters because few people stay at big firms long terms and different firms have different exit options; 2) firms are starting to differentiate themselves in terms of compensation; just look at this year's bonuses.  so the quality of the firms that you can get coming out of particular schools makes a difference, so hypothetically if CCN is 95% "biglaw" and MVPB is 94% "biglaw" but 50% of CCN gets V20 or above and 20% of MVPB gets V20 or above, then that's still a significant difference.

of course, i don't put any stock in vault rankings and am just using it for convenience. 

also, these figures are obviously exaggerated.  and i'm not saying anything about how any potential difference should weigh against other factors.


Yeah, I'm not sure about the "never being lower than 14" thing.... but I HAVE heard its because they are the only schools that have at one time been in the top 10.

Re: Is it T-14 or T-6
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2008, 10:35:45 AM »
I think a lot of times people on this board mention the fact that MVPB and DNG are different in terms of BIGlaw and clerkship placement (or MVPB and CCN, for that matter), but HOW different doesn't get mentioned enough.

In terms of the difference, sure CCN may have a smaller threshold of students who don't make BIGlaw (bottom 10%) as opposed to Penn (or MVB), where the bottom 20% don't make it (these are just estimates, obviously.  I'm just trying to make a point).  The question that doesn't seem to get raised enough is how much of a difference this actually should make in an admissions decision.  I realize that it's very difficult to guarantee a spot high in your class, but you also have an 80-90% chance to fall inside these cutoffs.  In that case, the difference really is rather minimal.  Perhaps at that point, other factors such as clinics, feel, location, faculty, etc. could come into play with a vengeance.  This also applies to clerkships.  Location seems to be a critical factor in getting them, depending on Circuit location and networking/faculty connections. 

I'm not saying that prestige of school doesn't matter.  Not at all.  I realize that going to CCN makes getting clerkship/BIGlaw easier than MVPB, but to what degree?  Is the difference worth going to CCN over MVPB despite wanting to go to MVPB more for some reason or another? 

Just my 2 cents.

another factor to take into consideration is what kind of "biglaw" prospects are available.  some people say what does it matter since all top firms pay the same base rate.  the conventional wisdom (as i see it) is that 1) it matters because few people stay at big firms long terms and different firms have different exit options; 2) firms are starting to differentiate themselves in terms of compensation; just look at this year's bonuses.  so the quality of the firms that you can get coming out of particular schools makes a difference, so hypothetically if CCN is 95% "biglaw" and MVPB is 94% "biglaw" but 50% of CCN gets V20 or above and 20% of MVPB gets V20 or above, then that's still a significant difference.

of course, i don't put any stock in vault rankings and am just using it for convenience. 

also, these figures are obviously exaggerated.  and i'm not saying anything about how any potential difference should weigh against other factors.


Yeah, I'm not sure about the "never being lower than 14" thing.... but I HAVE heard its because they are the only schools that have at one time been in the top 10.

It's 'cause GULC's 14, y'all.

Re: Is it T-14 or T-6
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2008, 11:50:15 AM »
T14 is arbitrary.  Look at the placement out of Vandy and Cornell.  There's almost no difference.

Meanwhile, the very term "T14" obscures huge chasms between, say, Cornell and Columbia.  It's not helpful.

::does a triple-take::

::pees pants::

Re: Is it T-14 or T-6
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2008, 12:02:30 PM »
I think a lot of times people on this board mention the fact that MVPB and DNG are different in terms of BIGlaw and clerkship placement (or MVPB and CCN, for that matter), but HOW different doesn't get mentioned enough.

In terms of the difference, sure CCN may have a smaller threshold of students who don't make BIGlaw (bottom 10%) as opposed to Penn (or MVB), where the bottom 20% don't make it (these are just estimates, obviously.  I'm just trying to make a point).  The question that doesn't seem to get raised enough is how much of a difference this actually should make in an admissions decision.  I realize that it's very difficult to guarantee a spot high in your class, but you also have an 80-90% chance to fall inside these cutoffs.  In that case, the difference really is rather minimal.  Perhaps at that point, other factors such as clinics, feel, location, faculty, etc. could come into play with a vengeance.  This also applies to clerkships.  Location seems to be a critical factor in getting them, depending on Circuit location and networking/faculty connections. 

I'm not saying that prestige of school doesn't matter.  Not at all.  I realize that going to CCN makes getting clerkship/BIGlaw easier than MVPB, but to what degree?  Is the difference worth going to CCN over MVPB despite wanting to go to MVPB more for some reason or another? 

Just my 2 cents.

another factor to take into consideration is what kind of "biglaw" prospects are available.  some people say what does it matter since all top firms pay the same base rate.  the conventional wisdom (as i see it) is that 1) it matters because few people stay at big firms long terms and different firms have different exit options; 2) firms are starting to differentiate themselves in terms of compensation; just look at this year's bonuses.  so the quality of the firms that you can get coming out of particular schools makes a difference, so hypothetically if CCN is 95% "biglaw" and MVPB is 94% "biglaw" but 50% of CCN gets V20 or above and 20% of MVPB gets V20 or above, then that's still a significant difference.

of course, i don't put any stock in vault rankings and am just using it for convenience. 

also, these figures are obviously exaggerated.  and i'm not saying anything about how any potential difference should weigh against other factors.


Yeah, I'm not sure about the "never being lower than 14" thing.... but I HAVE heard its because they are the only schools that have at one time been in the top 10.


This is right.

http://prelawhandbook.com/law_school_rankings__1987_1999

http://prelawhandbook.com/law_school_rankings__2000_present

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Re: Is it T-14 or T-6
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2008, 12:13:35 PM »
I'm  not sure if I'm the only one who didn't know this... but for the longest time I didn't know why the "T14" was such a big deal. Why the number 14? Well I found out its because no school in the T14 has ever been ranked lower than 14. And all the schools in the T14 have been, and were the only ones to have ever been, in the Top 10 since the inception of the US News and World Report law school rankings came to be in the 80s.

The bolded is not true. The file I have shows that Cornell was #15 in 1987 and  Northwestern was #16.

The data I have (a historical rankings spreadsheet posted here a while ago) bears out what Tetris is saying and shows Cornell #13 and NU #12 in 1987, so one of our data sets is wrong. 

Re: Is it T-14 or T-6
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2008, 12:35:56 PM »
I'm  not sure if I'm the only one who didn't know this... but for the longest time I didn't know why the "T14" was such a big deal. Why the number 14? Well I found out its because no school in the T14 has ever been ranked lower than 14. And all the schools in the T14 have been, and were the only ones to have ever been, in the Top 10 since the inception of the US News and World Report law school rankings came to be in the 80s.

The bolded is not true. The file I have shows that Cornell was #15 in 1987 and  Northwestern was #16.

The data I have (a historical rankings spreadsheet posted here a while ago) bears out what Tetris is saying and shows Cornell #13 and NU #12 in 1987, so one of our data sets is wrong. 

Not that I really care, but everything I've seen says Cornell was 15 and NW was 16 in 1987. In addition to prelawhandbook.com, check this out: www.law.stanford.edu/publications/projects/lrps/pdf/lomiowayne_rp4.pdf

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Re: Is it T-14 or T-6
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2008, 01:27:47 PM »
I'm  not sure if I'm the only one who didn't know this... but for the longest time I didn't know why the "T14" was such a big deal. Why the number 14? Well I found out its because no school in the T14 has ever been ranked lower than 14. And all the schools in the T14 have been, and were the only ones to have ever been, in the Top 10 since the inception of the US News and World Report law school rankings came to be in the 80s.

The bolded is not true. The file I have shows that Cornell was #15 in 1987 and  Northwestern was #16.

The data I have (a historical rankings spreadsheet posted here a while ago) bears out what Tetris is saying and shows Cornell #13 and NU #12 in 1987, so one of our data sets is wrong. 

Not that I really care, but everything I've seen says Cornell was 15 and NW was 16 in 1987. In addition to prelawhandbook.com, check this out: www.law.stanford.edu/publications/projects/lrps/pdf/lomiowayne_rp4.pdf
Awesome, that's a much better source than a random website or my spreadsheet. Thanks!