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Author Topic: Evolutionary prospects for labeled "dull" and "superior" ?  (Read 20917 times)

greenplaid

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Re: Evolutionary prospects for labeled "dull" and "superior" ?
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2008, 09:16:19 AM »
Studies have shown that biliingual children have higher IQ's on average than children who speak only one language.  It is important to note that we're talking about completely different languages here, as opposed to a broken down dialect of a language vs. the same language spoken properly.

Hmm, I wonder how much that's skewed by middle/upper class parents who make sure that their kids are learning a second language from kindergarden, as opposed to recent immigrant families.

Perhaps Burning could provide links to the data cited.
Also, even if the data are skewed this would not appear to minimize the potential damage of Black English or any dialect as a child's first language. Thoughts?

greenplaid

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Re: Evolutionary prospects for labeled "dull" and "superior" ?
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2008, 11:45:26 PM »
Studies have shown that biliingual children have higher IQ's on average than children who speak only one language.  It is important to note that we're talking about completely different languages here, as opposed to a broken down dialect of a language vs. the same language spoken properly.

Links?

ALSO, do those who speak "a broken down dialect" (if admitted) make it through law school ???
Pass the Bar ???

Any anonymous examples?

pikey

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Re: Evolutionary prospects for labeled "dull" and "superior" ?
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2008, 01:53:02 AM »
Studies have shown that biliingual children have higher IQ's on average than children who speak only one language.  It is important to note that we're talking about completely different languages here, as opposed to a broken down dialect of a language vs. the same language spoken properly.

Links?

ALSO, do those who speak "a broken down dialect" (if admitted) make it through law school ???
Pass the Bar ???

Any anonymous examples?

The percentage of law students who speak a "broken down dialect" are probably extremely low.  I'm assuming you mean that as their primary dialect.
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greenplaid

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Re: Evolutionary prospects for labeled "dull" and "superior" ?
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2008, 02:56:38 AM »
Studies have shown that biliingual children have higher IQ's on average than children who speak only one language.  It is important to note that we're talking about completely different languages here, as opposed to a broken down dialect of a language vs. the same language spoken properly.

Links?

ALSO, do those who speak "a broken down dialect" (if admitted) make it through law school ???
Pass the Bar ???

Any anonymous examples?

The percentage of law students who speak a "broken down dialect" are probably extremely low.  I'm assuming you mean that as their primary dialect.

Do legal writing grades tend to break down along racial and ethnic lines? 
LGPAs appear to do so.

Is law school rank a factor?

greenplaid

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Re: Evolutionary prospects for labeled "dull" and "superior" ?
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2008, 03:31:06 AM »
Studies have shown that biliingual children have higher IQ's on average than children who speak only one language.  It is important to note that we're talking about completely different languages here, as opposed to a broken down dialect of a language vs. the same language spoken properly.

Links?

ALSO, do those who speak "a broken down dialect" (if admitted) make it through law school ???
Pass the Bar ???

Any anonymous examples?

The percentage of law students who speak a "broken down dialect" are probably extremely low.  I'm assuming you mean that as their primary dialect.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/13/weekinreview/13liptak.html?ex=1266037200&en=a50ec15b9dd39d6a&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt

"Once at law school, the average black student gets lower grades than white students: 52 percent of black students are in the bottom 10th of their first-year law school classes, while only 8 percent are in the top half. And the grades of black students drop slightly in relative terms from the first year of law school to the third."

Has anyone personally observed this?  What is the cure?

greenplaid

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Re: Evolutionary prospects for labeled "dull" and "superior" ?
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2008, 02:20:14 PM »
Studies have shown that biliingual children have higher IQ's on average than children who speak only one language.  It is important to note that we're talking about completely different languages here, as opposed to a broken down dialect of a language vs. the same language spoken properly.

Links?

ALSO, do those who speak "a broken down dialect" (if admitted) make it through law school ???
Pass the Bar ???

Any anonymous examples?

The percentage of law students who speak a "broken down dialect" are probably extremely low.  I'm assuming you mean that as their primary dialect.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/13/weekinreview/13liptak.html?ex=1266037200&en=a50ec15b9dd39d6a&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt

"Once at law school, the average black student gets lower grades than white students: 52 percent of black students are in the bottom 10th of their first-year law school classes, while only 8 percent are in the top half. And the grades of black students drop slightly in relative terms from the first year of law school to the third."

Has anyone personally observed this?  What is the cure?

If these statistics are accurate (apparently, no contradictions posted) what should 'would-be 1Ls' do differently to escape this fate? Do professors relate to students based on group performance averages? Anyone ???


pikey

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Re: Evolutionary prospects for labeled "dull" and "superior" ?
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2008, 03:07:05 PM »
From that same article:

For instance, Richard O. Lempert, a law professor at the University of Michigan, said that the university's law school had found little difference between its black and white students in rates of graduation, in passing the bar or in income afterward. "We think the fact that Michigan is an elite law school has a lot to do with it," he wrote in an e-mail message. "Sander's data, though he barely mentions it, convey essentially the same story. Thus his analysis provides no case for the Harvards, Yales and Columbias of this world to abandon affirmative action."



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greenplaid

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Re: Evolutionary prospects for labeled "dull" and "superior" ?
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2008, 08:38:36 PM »
From that same article:

For instance, Richard O. Lempert, a law professor at the University of Michigan, said that the university's law school had found little difference between its black and white students in rates of graduation, in passing the bar or in income afterward. "We think the fact that Michigan is an elite law school has a lot to do with it," he wrote in an e-mail message. "Sander's data, though he barely mentions it, convey essentially the same story. Thus his analysis provides no case for the Harvards, Yales and Columbias of this world to abandon affirmative action."

The article below would imply that the racial achievement gap is so large that average Black high school kids are embarrassed by their own performances. They are probably also predominately in the bottom tenth of their classes.

What then is the prognosis for these Black non Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Michigan, etc. admits?  

Certainly a few would dream of being lawyers.

'Black only' assembly offends sensibilities

 February 1, 2008
Leesburg --  Several Lee County High parents voiced their disapproval Friday, when the school held a Black History Assembly for the black students only.  White students were told they could not attend.

Only about 19% of the Lee County High School student body is black. Principal Kevin Dowling said he held the black student only assembly to talk to them about test scores, so that none of them would be embarrassed.

In Georgia and in Lee County, the black students test scores as a whole are lagging behind white students. In the assembly, Dowling had black parents and teachers talk to the students about racial history in Lee County, to try to get motivate them to take advantage of their opportunities.

Dowling said looking back on the objections from whites, he should have made it more clear what the assembly was about. "I should have been more up front, at the beginning in the days beforehand about what we are going to do. I didn't do that. I made it more general, because I didn't want it to be a big issue," Dowling said.

Steve Jenkins is one of the parents who went to Lee County High today to talk to Dowling about the black only assembly, saying he was worried about the message being sent.

"Singling out somebody-- I'm tired of this black white thing,"  said Parent Steve Jenkins. "We need to get over that."

Jenkins said after talking with Dowling, he knows that the Principal was trying to do the right thing, but disagreed with the assembly. Dowling said the school will hold three other assemblies during the month on Black History, for all the students.

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greenplaid

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Re: Evolutionary prospects for labeled "dull" and "superior" ?
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2008, 09:35:27 PM »
From that same article:

For instance, Richard O. Lempert, a law professor at the University of Michigan, said that the university's law school had found little difference between its black and white students in rates of graduation, in passing the bar or in income afterward. "We think the fact that Michigan is an elite law school has a lot to do with it," he wrote in an e-mail message. "Sander's data, though he barely mentions it, convey essentially the same story. Thus his analysis provides no case for the Harvards, Yales and Columbias of this world to abandon affirmative action."

Does anyone know the percentage of black law students who attend the "Harvards, Yales and Columbias" and Michigans, etc.... the elite law schools? How do the lower T1, T2-T4 black student graduation & bar passage rates compare with those of black students at the most selective schools?

greenplaid

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Re: Evolutionary prospects for labeled "dull" and "superior" ?
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2008, 03:15:34 AM »
December 2004 California Bar Journal Re: Richard Sander
http://www.calbar.ca.gov/state/calbar/calbar_cbj.jsp?sCategoryPath=/Home/Attorney%20Resources/California%20Bar%20Journal/December2004&sCatHtmlPath=cbj/2004-12_TH_01_Black-law-students.html&sCatHtmlTitle=Top%20Headlinesp

"...Yale Law School Dean of Admissions Megan Barnett said she doesn’t think the study applies to Yale because “all Yale law students are really exceptional. We get the most talented students in the country so they all end up very successful after they graduate.”

Affirmative action has a number of virtues,” said University of Michigan Law School Dean of Admissions Evan Caminker. “There are virtues in making sure people who graduate from elite academic institutions and are trained to be leaders of society represent what the community is like that they will be living and working in.”

Stanford Law School Dean Larry Kramer issued a statement that emphasized the school’s continued commitment “to diversity in recruitment and admissions of the student body. The faculty and staff of the school share complete confidence in the qualifications of each of our students and value the contributions that their differing backgrounds and perspectives, as well as their intellectual accomplishments, bring to our community.”

Richard Lempert and David Chambers of the University of Michigan, Timothy Clydesdale of The College of New Jersey and William Kidder of the Equal Justice Society issued a rebuttal that will appear in an upcoming Stanford Law Review. Although they did not disagree about the poorer performance of blacks compared to whites, they said that factors other than grades contributed to the gap. “Something about the atmosphere of law school exacerbates the entering educational gaps of minority and other atypical law students,” the rebuttal said.

The authors described Sander’s forecasts as “irresponsible” and said the document was based on “a series of statistical errors, oversights and implausible (and at times internally contradictory) assumptions.” They predicted that a ban on racial preferences would decrease the African-American presence at the top law schools from its current 7 to 12 percent to 1 to 2 percent. Instead of applying to lower-tier schools, as Sander assumes, many black students would not apply to law school at all. Ultimately, the authors said, the number of black law school students could drop by a quarter...."

Posted above:
"Once at law school, the average black student gets lower grades than white students: 52 percent of black students are in the bottom 10th of their first-year law school classes, while only 8 percent are in the top half. And the grades of black students drop slightly in relative terms from the first year of law school to the third."

This appears to be true even at elite schools. Any thoughts as to why ???