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TTT

ilsox7

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Re: TTT
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2007, 12:51:32 PM »
This is an especially bitter pill to swallow for those who only made it close to the top 10%... think about it.  Someone made top 10% and got a 135k biglaw job because they coudl get that OCI interview.  You make top 15% and don't get that job.  Guess what?  You'll be making 45k/year like everyone else.

Well, it isn't 160K or 45K.  There is a middle market.  It is much more difficult to find and break into, but I know numerous people (including myself) who have found a nice middle ground.  I'll have a life, work hard (but not like big law), make a good living, and be able to pay down my loans.  So while it's true some folks will end up making 45K, many others will settle in the middle of the market.  And the nice thing about the middle of the market is that grades are not always the most important thing.

link?

What kind of link do you want?  I am a 3L.  I know people in law school and recent graduates.  If you don't believe me, I really do not care.

Re: TTT
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2007, 01:02:35 PM »
This is an especially bitter pill to swallow for those who only made it close to the top 10%... think about it.  Someone made top 10% and got a 135k biglaw job because they coudl get that OCI interview.  You make top 15% and don't get that job.  Guess what?  You'll be making 45k/year like everyone else.

Well, it isn't 160K or 45K.  There is a middle market.  It is much more difficult to find and break into, but I know numerous people (including myself) who have found a nice middle ground.  I'll have a life, work hard (but not like big law), make a good living, and be able to pay down my loans.  So while it's true some folks will end up making 45K, many others will settle in the middle of the market.  And the nice thing about the middle of the market is that grades are not always the most important thing.

didn't someone come out with a study a month or two back saying that there's not much of a middle market and that most jobs are at one of the two extremes? 

Yes, there's a giant, discernible divide between the 160k and 40k jobs.  I'm sure someone can link to the graphic showing this.

ilsox7

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Re: TTT
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2007, 02:26:14 PM »
This is an especially bitter pill to swallow for those who only made it close to the top 10%... think about it.  Someone made top 10% and got a 135k biglaw job because they coudl get that OCI interview.  You make top 15% and don't get that job.  Guess what?  You'll be making 45k/year like everyone else.

Well, it isn't 160K or 45K.  There is a middle market.  It is much more difficult to find and break into, but I know numerous people (including myself) who have found a nice middle ground.  I'll have a life, work hard (but not like big law), make a good living, and be able to pay down my loans.  So while it's true some folks will end up making 45K, many others will settle in the middle of the market.  And the nice thing about the middle of the market is that grades are not always the most important thing.

where do you live / go to school?

I go to Loyola Chicago.  As I said before, the middle of the market is not easy to get into and is not big by any means, but I know plenty of people who have cracked it.  Sometimes people around here need to get away from studies, rankings, etc and live in reality. 

My main point is that if you work hard enough at it, you can find a good job out of school that will pay you decently and not work you 80 - 100 hours every week.  But like most jobs, they do not fall into your lap.  You have to work for it.

iLukeisamazing

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Re: TTT
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2007, 02:38:32 PM »
By definition, there MUST be a middle ground. I know people who exist in the middle ground, making between $75-90 K per year and they're young folks. I know everyone pimps these studies, but when I have real world examples, where I'm from, it makes little sense to me. I know these studies have their good points, but not in everything.

Re: TTT
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2007, 02:42:24 PM »
By definition, there MUST be a middle ground. I know people who exist in the middle ground, making between $75-90 K per year and they're young folks. I know everyone pimps these studies, but when I have real world examples, where I'm from, it makes little sense to me. I know these studies have their good points, but not in everything.

And $80k is a lot different in, say Florida, than it is in Chicago.  I wonder what the top-end is in Florida.  I have heard that some Miami associates make NYC market to start ($160k) at GT and HK, but I wonder about the rest of the state.

ilsox7

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Re: TTT
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2007, 02:44:02 PM »
I hope you don't think I was harping on you like the other people in this thread.  I 100% agree with you and was just curious what school you go to so I could get a better idea of where you are specifically coming from.  My #1 choice is NU in Boston.

I know you weren't.  Didn't mean to come off that way to you.  My advice is to work your ass off, get your resume out there, and talk to people.  It won't come easy, but there are jobs out there.  I have friends in Chicago who did not have top grades at mid-sized law firms.  I am not going to a law firm, but rather a place that does tax consulting. 

One other piece of advice I have for people at regional schools is to take classes taught by non-academics.  Generally, I feel like you'll learn more.  Additionally, those people work real jobs and are great contacts.  It's a bit of a coincidence in my example, but the place I ended up signing with is where a professor I know pretty well just switched firms to this past September.

iLukeisamazing

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Re: TTT
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2007, 02:52:23 PM »
By definition, there MUST be a middle ground. I know people who exist in the middle ground, making between $75-90 K per year and they're young folks. I know everyone pimps these studies, but when I have real world examples, where I'm from, it makes little sense to me. I know these studies have their good points, but not in everything.

And $80k is a lot different in, say Florida, than it is in Chicago.  I wonder what the top-end is in Florida.  I have heard that some Miami associates make NYC market to start ($160k) at GT and HK, but I wonder about the rest of the state.

I know it's not Florida, but in Atlanta, the biggest firms start out associates at $125K+, which would give you an extremely comfortable living if you lived in the metro and not right inside the perimeter.

ilsox7

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Re: TTT
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2007, 02:55:49 PM »
Thanks for posting all your advice.  For those of us who aren't looking at T14's and BigLaw these forums the advice mostly is frustrating

No problem.  Just try to find an area you're interested in and then work your ass off to make it happen.  I externed for a judge after 1L.  Worked at a small firm during 2L.  Went in-house for 2L summer and am there for all of this year (3L).  I will also be working at the lace I am going full-time next semester.  So I'll be working 36 hours a week while going to school full time.  As I said, sometimes you gotta work your ass off, but it's worth it in the end.  I know PLENTY of people with great grades who do not have jobs b/c they have not put forth the necessary effort.

ilsox7

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Re: TTT
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2007, 03:05:42 PM »
Thanks for posting all your advice.  For those of us who aren't looking at T14's and BigLaw these forums the advice mostly is frustrating

No problem.  Just try to find an area you're interested in and then work your ass off to make it happen.  I externed for a judge after 1L.  Worked at a small firm during 2L.  Went in-house for 2L summer and am there for all of this year (3L).  I will also be working at the lace I am going full-time next semester.  So I'll be working 36 hours a week while going to school full time.  As I said, sometimes you gotta work your ass off, but it's worth it in the end.  I know PLENTY of people with great grades who do not have jobs b/c they have not put forth the necessary effort.

I really want to go into immigration law :)

Take the appropriate classes and do whatever you can to show a demonstrated interest in it.  Look to see if your school has any dedicated Immigration faculty and get to know them. 

ilsox7

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Re: TTT
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2007, 03:10:42 PM »
I'm not in law school - still working on that part!  Suffolk has a 1-yr clinical program in immigration that really interests me.
   


Nice.  The clinics seem to be good ways to meet people and get your name out there.  I didn't do one, but that's mostly b/c I tend to do things differently than most folks.  :)