Law School Discussion

TTT

Re: TTT
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2007, 07:31:11 PM »
DON'T HIJACK MY THREAD.

Re: TTT
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2007, 07:38:26 PM »
Piggy is making similar points I was trying to make about the rankings. However, I want to point out that your examples below are wrong. In large cities, associates at big firms and even at some smaller ones are still drawn from the top schools, even if those schools are out of state.

In more regional, secondary markets the firms hire less associates, so the few jobs available go to students of the local schools who finished at the very, very top of their classes or students from top schools out of state who are originally from the area.

Bottom line, you need top grades and / or a top school on your resume to get a top job.

Students outside the top 10-15% at Miami aren't going to do so hot, even if Miami is the best school in Miami. The top jobs will just go to people from schools outside of Miami who happen to be originally from Miami or have some other reason for coming there. Look at some large Miami firm websites if you don't believe me.

Fordham is not even close to being #1 in NY in any sense. The NY market is dominated by the top 14 schools, at least at the large firms and the best of the midsize and smaller firms. Fordham grads seem to do well if they are in the top 1/3 or so, but I wouldn't want to be a Fordham student in the bottom half of the class.


Honestly I think you're right.  Univ. of Miami for example is 2nd tier, but it's the best school in Miami so it would #1.  You're right about Fordham - aside from Columbia and NYU (t14), it would similarly be #1.

El_Che

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Re: TTT
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2007, 10:14:39 PM »
I've seen this question repeated over and over in my (relatively) short life on this board. It's simple: If you want to have decent employment prospects, do the work and study your ass off. No matter which school you attend, from Harvard down to Cooley, the better your grades are, the more opportunities you will have after graduation. If you're attending Tier 2 or 3, just pick a school close to where you want to live/practice for at least 5 years, and study your ass off. If you attend a t14, just study your ass off. Easy! :)

Re: TTT
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2007, 11:15:28 PM »
Except its not that simple when we're talking about taking on a large sum of debt with the expectation of being able to pay it back and still survive. Law school is a huge investment, and is extremely risky for those not at the top schools.

Merely "studying hard" won't guarantee great grades...lots of people study hard and wind up in the middle of the pack or below. At a non-top school, you won't have good job opportunities if that happens, generally, yet you'll still have lots of student loans to pay back. There is no way to predict where you're class rank will end up either, which is why I always advise prospective law students to get in-state tuition any way they can if they can't get into a top school.




I've seen this question repeated over and over in my (relatively) short life on this board. It's simple: If you want to have decent employment prospects, do the work and study your ass off. No matter which school you attend, from Harvard down to Cooley, the better your grades are, the more opportunities you will have after graduation. If you're attending Tier 2 or 3, just pick a school close to where you want to live/practice for at least 5 years, and study your ass off. If you attend a t14, just study your ass off. Easy! :)

Re: TTT
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2007, 07:14:25 AM »
I've seen this question repeated over and over in my (relatively) short life on this board. It's simple: If you want to have decent employment prospects, do the work and study your ass off.

I graduated from Temple Law in '06.  You cannot count on "study your ass off" to save you when there is a curve and only 10% will make the top 10%.  Sure, there will be lots of slackers -- my guess is that 20% of people just drift and do the minimum to get by, but A LOT MORE than 10% of students work their asses off. 

This is an especially bitter pill to swallow for those who only made it close to the top 10%... think about it.  Someone made top 10% and got a 135k biglaw job because they coudl get that OCI interview.  You make top 15% and don't get that job.  Guess what?  You'll be making 45k/year like everyone else.

This may seem unpleasant, but it is the nature of the system.

Re: TTT
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2007, 08:01:02 AM »
One more thing to add:

Merely being in top 10% and being on law review, while it does put you in the running for the selective govt. jobs and the big firm jobs doesn't guarantee anything. I personally know a some people who didn't get a single offer from OCI at my old tier 2 despite having great grades on their resume. This was in a secondary market, not one of the big east coast legal markets. I don't think it was due to "personality" issues either.

Basically, when these employers decide they're only going to hire a handful of students, they can be as selective as they want or as arbitrary as the want to be when handing out the rejections. Students from the non-top schools are the last to get hired at the selective jobs in most cases, even if they do have top grades, which is why more and more are trying to transfer out to a top school after 1L year.

El_Che

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Re: TTT
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2007, 09:41:50 AM »
Biglaw isn't the end all be all in the legal world. The OP never even said anything about wanting biglaw. It was about TTT and TTTT. Making $160k after graduation isn't the concern in this case. If you go TTT or TTTT, I would hope that you are intelligent enough to realize that you're not going to be raking in $100k+ in Manhattan anytime soon. Keep your dreams realistic, stay regional, work your ass off, network like crazy as much as you can and you'll be fine. And yes, it is possible to pay back loans making $45k a year. You won't be buying a Bentley anytime soon, but if that's your reason for going to law school in the first place, you should probably reevaluate that thought.

Re: TTT
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2007, 11:26:30 AM »
And yes, it is possible to pay back loans making $45k a year. You won't be buying a Bentley anytime soon, but if that's your reason for going to law school in the first place, you should probably reevaluate that thought.

It's extremely uncomfortable.  Someone graduating from a private TTT with $150,000 in debt at 7% interest will be paying almost $1000/month for the next 30 years, or almost $1200/month for the next 20 years.  (http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml)

Now say they earn 45k/year in Philadelphia. (http://www.paycheckcity.com/netpaycalc/netpaycalculator.asp).  Taking into account city wage tax of 4.26% (as of Jan 1 2007), a single earner w' 2 exemptions will take home $631/week, or about $2730/month.  If you figure in rent/utils at $1000/month, food at $250/month, cell phone at $40/month, cost of Continuing Legal Education, transit fare, and any part of health insurance premium you have to pay, and dry cleaning, 45k barely makes ends meet.  Forget about owning a car, saving for retirement, or saving for anything.

Things are a lot better if you can split living costs with someone.  Things get a lot WORSE and a few extra crates of worse if you have children to support.

ilsox7

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Re: TTT
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2007, 12:46:39 PM »
This is an especially bitter pill to swallow for those who only made it close to the top 10%... think about it.  Someone made top 10% and got a 135k biglaw job because they coudl get that OCI interview.  You make top 15% and don't get that job.  Guess what?  You'll be making 45k/year like everyone else.

Well, it isn't 160K or 45K.  There is a middle market.  It is much more difficult to find and break into, but I know numerous people (including myself) who have found a nice middle ground.  I'll have a life, work hard (but not like big law), make a good living, and be able to pay down my loans.  So while it's true some folks will end up making 45K, many others will settle in the middle of the market.  And the nice thing about the middle of the market is that grades are not always the most important thing.

Re: TTT
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2007, 12:48:37 PM »
This is an especially bitter pill to swallow for those who only made it close to the top 10%... think about it.  Someone made top 10% and got a 135k biglaw job because they coudl get that OCI interview.  You make top 15% and don't get that job.  Guess what?  You'll be making 45k/year like everyone else.

Well, it isn't 160K or 45K.  There is a middle market.  It is much more difficult to find and break into, but I know numerous people (including myself) who have found a nice middle ground.  I'll have a life, work hard (but not like big law), make a good living, and be able to pay down my loans.  So while it's true some folks will end up making 45K, many others will settle in the middle of the market.  And the nice thing about the middle of the market is that grades are not always the most important thing.

link?