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Author Topic: American WCL 1L Taking Questions  (Read 10461 times)

donwario

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Re: American WCL 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2007, 09:28:21 PM »
I think your school is overpriced and should give far more scholarships, do you agree?

Also are you sad that your school lags in placement when compared to its private brothers (SMU, Tulane)?

I have to agree that Tulane and SMU are superior to American.

iscoredawaitlist

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Re: American WCL 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2007, 09:29:44 PM »

By your logic, shouldn't Cardozo (16 transfers out), Chicago-Kent (17 transfers out), and Loyola Marymount (13 transfers out) all have transfer numbers that are more similar to those at American? There is obviously something unique to American when 50 students are leaving each year to attend a different school. 

No. I personally (and I think many would agree including USNews) do not hold Chicago-Kent or Loyla Marymount to the same esteem as American. I don't think comparisons can be made between them. American was being compared to USNews peer T1 law schools - Tulane and SMU. Chi-Kent & Loyola Marymount are T2 (maybe not by much but they are). So what you've cited could actually be indicative of the difference in transfer opportunities between the bottm of T1 and the top of T2, not the proximity claim I was trying to point out. Transfering is not only about leaving - it's also about being accepted somewhere worth transfering to. And I would venture to say that Top T1 schools (where most AU students transfer) are more likely to accept transfer students from AU over Chicago-Kent or Loyola Marymount. Who knows maybe 50 students tried to transfer up from those schools and weren't accepted anywhere actually worth transfering to while 50 student from American were.

I hate to burst your bubble, but there is virtually no prestige difference between a school ranked 45 and one ranked 60.

The other half of your argument is pure speculation. What evidence is there that transfers from American have better credentials or better transfer options than those from similarly ranked schools? Moreover, there is nothing to support the idea that a larger percentage of transfer applicants at American ultimately decide to leave. It could just as easily be the case that 200 people try to transfer and only 50 do. In fact, it is far more plausible.

I return to the original point: 50 students transfer out of American, a number unparalleled by any peer school or by schools situated in similar geographic circumstances. No matter the reason why, when over 10% of the class choose to transfer, there is no denying that such a situation is unique.


Please note that you call a theory of his speculation and then make a speculation of your own. Whether or not you think that speculation has more merit, it's still "pure speculation."

My take (which is speculation backed up by a bit of data): GW and Georgetown, the two schools I imagine take the most AU transfers, are large transfer taking schools (33 and 100 respectively). SMU and Tulane only really have Texas as a viable transfer alternative in the area (I get this by looking for a school that significantly outranks another school. There are no other regional law schools that fit that, and certainly no local schools). Texas only takes 14 transfers a year.

Ask yourself this: if UT took tons of transfers and was located in the same city as Tulane, do you really think that transfer rates would be low at Tulane? Certainly some would snub UT, I think, but I wouldn't be surprised if you got similar transfer rates.

Add to this the fact that AU's matriculants were 469 compared to Tulane's 274.

The simple point is this: you meet a lot of good friends your first year of law school. Transfering usually takes you away from those good friends, but if you go to a place like AU, you can transfer to a number of places and still end up keeping those friends, keeping your apartment, keeping everything else in your life the same.  This is no small deal.

---

Don't get me wrong. I think high transfer rates probably do indicate something about the student body not being exactly content. I don't believe, in my interactions with WCL students, that they are entirely happy with AU in the way that I've found people at USC happy with my school. But I don't think you can read too much into the stats, and I certainly don't think you can make the argument that AU is overrated because of it.

bruinbro

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Re: American WCL 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2007, 09:47:20 PM »

By your logic, shouldn't Cardozo (16 transfers out), Chicago-Kent (17 transfers out), and Loyola Marymount (13 transfers out) all have transfer numbers that are more similar to those at American? There is obviously something unique to American when 50 students are leaving each year to attend a different school. 

Please note that you call a theory of his speculation and then make a speculation of your own. Whether or not you think that speculation has more merit, it's still "pure speculation."

My take (which is speculation backed up by a bit of data): GW and Georgetown, the two schools I imagine take the most AU transfers, are large transfer taking schools (33 and 100 respectively). SMU and Tulane only really have Texas as a viable transfer alternative in the area (I get this by looking for a school that significantly outranks another school. There are no other regional law schools that fit that, and certainly no local schools). Texas only takes 14 transfers a year.

Add to this the fact that AU's matriculants were 469 compared to Tulane's 274.

The simple point is this: you meet a lot of good friends your first year of law school. Transfering usually takes you away from those good friends, but if you go to a place like AU, you can transfer to a number of places and still end up keeping those friends, keeping your apartment, keeping everything else in your life the same.  This is no small deal.

---

Don't get me wrong. I think high transfer rates probably do indicate something about the student body not being exactly content. I don't believe, in my interactions with WCL students, that they are entirely happy with AU in the way that I've found people at USC. But I don't think you can read too much into the stats, and I certainly don't think you can make the argument that AU is overrated because of it.

Quick response..

1) I didn't speculate per se. Rather I pointed out how her/his speculation could easily be countered by a competing speculation.
 
2) All of your conclusions flow from the idea that students transfer to law schools in the same city where they currently attend. I'm not sure what, besides conjecture, supports your theory. Much of the posting on this site and database information from Yahoo supports the contrary. Transfers often desire to leave their city, some desire to return to a school closer to home, and others desire to attend a certain school irrespective of the city it is located in.

3) The presence of one high-intake (G-town) and one medium-intake (GW) transfer school in DC is mitigated by the proximate location of a number of other law schools (a couple which are similarly ranked schools to American).

4) Even if we assume that transfer rates should be considered in light of the schools matriculation numbers, American's transfer number should be no more than 25 to keep proportion with Tulane. In fact, it is twice that.

Any way you slice it, American has a serious problem: an extraordinary amount of students choose to transfer out.
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Americanlaw10

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Re: American WCL 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2007, 10:17:38 PM »

By your logic, shouldn't Cardozo (16 transfers out), Chicago-Kent (17 transfers out), and Loyola Marymount (13 transfers out) all have transfer numbers that are more similar to those at American? There is obviously something unique to American when 50 students are leaving each year to attend a different school. 

Please note that you call a theory of his speculation and then make a speculation of your own. Whether or not you think that speculation has more merit, it's still "pure speculation."

My take (which is speculation backed up by a bit of data): GW and Georgetown, the two schools I imagine take the most AU transfers, are large transfer taking schools (33 and 100 respectively). SMU and Tulane only really have Texas as a viable transfer alternative in the area (I get this by looking for a school that significantly outranks another school. There are no other regional law schools that fit that, and certainly no local schools). Texas only takes 14 transfers a year.

Add to this the fact that AU's matriculants were 469 compared to Tulane's 274.

The simple point is this: you meet a lot of good friends your first year of law school. Transfering usually takes you away from those good friends, but if you go to a place like AU, you can transfer to a number of places and still end up keeping those friends, keeping your apartment, keeping everything else in your life the same.  This is no small deal.

---

Don't get me wrong. I think high transfer rates probably do indicate something about the student body not being exactly content. I don't believe, in my interactions with WCL students, that they are entirely happy with AU in the way that I've found people at USC. But I don't think you can read too much into the stats, and I certainly don't think you can make the argument that AU is overrated because of it.

Quick response..

1) I didn't speculate per se. Rather I pointed out how her/his speculation could easily be countered by a competing speculation.
 
2) All of your conclusions flow from the idea that students transfer to law schools in the same city where they currently attend. I'm not sure what, besides conjecture, supports your theory. Much of the posting on this site and database information from Yahoo supports the contrary. Transfers often desire to leave their city, some desire to return to a school closer to home, and others desire to attend a certain school irrespective of the city it is located in.

3) The presence of one high-intake (G-town) and one medium-intake (GW) transfer school in DC is mitigated by the proximate location of a number of other law schools (a couple which are similarly ranked schools to American).

4) Even if we assume that transfer rates should be considered in light of the schools matriculation numbers, American's transfer number should be no more than 25 to keep proportion with Tulane. In fact, it is twice that.

Any way you slice it, American has a serious problem: an extraordinary amount of students choose to transfer out.


Please, explain to me how that is a "problem."  Please, supply where you get your transfer stats.  To void of using substantial time to find it, I'd like to see where you are pulling these from.  Not because I don't believe you, but I would like to see it. 

I think there is a two-fold reason for people transferring by geographic measures.  The first being, like iscoredawaitlist points out, you can transfer from American to GWU/GULC without even having to move.  It is obvious that the career placement from those two schools are better than American's.  The second is pointed out by bruinbro.  People do tend to transfer to areas closer to home.  Looking through the 1L book I have, I see there are probably less than 5% of students at our school that are from the DC/VA/MD area.  Rather, WCL pull students from all across the nation.  SMU/Tulane are largely regional schools.  Does that mean that students don’t come from across the nation? – Absolutely not.  I would, however, contend that there are far more Texas residents that go to SMU, and far more Louisiana residents that go to Tulane – than DC/VA/MD residents that go to WCL.

Bottom line, I think it's ludicrous to argue that American has "problems" simply because of its transfer rate.  That argument has absolutely no merit to it at all.  Without providing some kind of statistical basis as to WHY people transfer, then you really have nothing but a number.  If the majority of students move upward to a T14 school to secure better career possibilities, or to move home due to a change of heart - then that is a perfectly relevant reason to do so. 

Again, until you can come up with a substantial explanation of why students elect to transfer, this argument is pointless.
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Guiness19

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Re: American WCL 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2007, 10:19:23 PM »
No one is trying to say their speculation is the "reality." I was providing an alternative to the conclusion that 50 students transfering out of WCL is indicative of Tulane/SMU being better schools or students at those schols being more content. You cannot make that conclusion because there are alternative interpretation for why more students transfer out of WCL, some of which could be indicative of WCL actually being better than those schools.

botbot

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Re: American WCL 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2007, 10:27:37 PM »
Ugh...

It all comes down to placement.

Top 15% at American and Top 15% at Tulane likely have the same transfer opportunities.  When trying to find a job, though, if a top 15% American student dropped to top 35% - they have lost biglaw and will struggle with those monster loans (as the were likely not on a scholarship).  At Tulane - top 35% gets BIGLAW and has less loans as they are likely on scholarship.

So to go over this - Bad placement + huge loans = mass transfer

Also please note: those Tulane transfer numbers come from a larger class than this year's - something like a 315-320 student class.

K?

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Re: American WCL 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2007, 10:48:33 PM »
At Tulane - top 35% gets BIGLAW and has less loans as they are likely on scholarship.

How true is this?
Skeptical?

Me too.

Proofs plz.
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Americanlaw10

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Re: American WCL 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2007, 11:21:52 PM »
At Tulane - top 35% gets BIGLAW and has less loans as they are likely on scholarship.

Way to completely destroy all of your credibility buddy..
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Americanlaw10

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Re: American WCL 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2007, 11:28:30 PM »
Bruin and Botbot...please stop wasting your time trolling against WCL.  There are plenty of people out there that are genuinely interested in WCL, and this thread was to serve as Q&A for those people.  Not for pathetic jerks like you guys that hijack threads and troll.  You really should get a hobby - hell, get a dog...Either wasy, give it a rest. 

You guys are really turning into poor representatives of your school(s) if the best you can come up with is belittling another school to make yours shine. I could really care less if you think Tulane is better than WCL --- honestly, I don't need your assurances to make me feel comfortable about my law school choice.

Waste your time trolling somewhere else...
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bruinbro

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Re: American WCL 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2007, 12:18:47 AM »

By your logic, shouldn't Cardozo (16 transfers out), Chicago-Kent (17 transfers out), and Loyola Marymount (13 transfers out) all have transfer numbers that are more similar to those at American? There is obviously something unique to American when 50 students are leaving each year to attend a different school. 

Please note that you call a theory of his speculation and then make a speculation of your own. Whether or not you think that speculation has more merit, it's still "pure speculation."

My take (which is speculation backed up by a bit of data): GW and Georgetown, the two schools I imagine take the most AU transfers, are large transfer taking schools (33 and 100 respectively). SMU and Tulane only really have Texas as a viable transfer alternative in the area (I get this by looking for a school that significantly outranks another school. There are no other regional law schools that fit that, and certainly no local schools). Texas only takes 14 transfers a year.

Add to this the fact that AU's matriculants were 469 compared to Tulane's 274.

The simple point is this: you meet a lot of good friends your first year of law school. Transfering usually takes you away from those good friends, but if you go to a place like AU, you can transfer to a number of places and still end up keeping those friends, keeping your apartment, keeping everything else in your life the same.  This is no small deal.

---

Don't get me wrong. I think high transfer rates probably do indicate something about the student body not being exactly content. I don't believe, in my interactions with WCL students, that they are entirely happy with AU in the way that I've found people at USC. But I don't think you can read too much into the stats, and I certainly don't think you can make the argument that AU is overrated because of it.

Quick response..

1) I didn't speculate per se. Rather I pointed out how her/his speculation could easily be countered by a competing speculation.
 
2) All of your conclusions flow from the idea that students transfer to law schools in the same city where they currently attend. I'm not sure what, besides conjecture, supports your theory. Much of the posting on this site and database information from Yahoo supports the contrary. Transfers often desire to leave their city, some desire to return to a school closer to home, and others desire to attend a certain school irrespective of the city it is located in.

3) The presence of one high-intake (G-town) and one medium-intake (GW) transfer school in DC is mitigated by the proximate location of a number of other law schools (a couple which are similarly ranked schools to American).

4) Even if we assume that transfer rates should be considered in light of the schools matriculation numbers, American's transfer number should be no more than 25 to keep proportion with Tulane. In fact, it is twice that.

Any way you slice it, American has a serious problem: an extraordinary amount of students choose to transfer out.


Please, explain to me how that is a "problem."  Please, supply where you get your transfer stats.  To void of using substantial time to find it, I'd like to see where you are pulling these from.  Not because I don't believe you, but I would like to see it. 

I think there is a two-fold reason for people transferring by geographic measures.  The first being, like iscoredawaitlist points out, you can transfer from American to GWU/GULC without even having to move.  It is obvious that the career placement from those two schools are better than American's.  The second is pointed out by bruinbro.  People do tend to transfer to areas closer to home.  Looking through the 1L book I have, I see there are probably less than 5% of students at our school that are from the DC/VA/MD area.  Rather, WCL pull students from all across the nation.  SMU/Tulane are largely regional schools.  Does that mean that students don’t come from across the nation? – Absolutely not.  I would, however, contend that there are far more Texas residents that go to SMU, and far more Louisiana residents that go to Tulane – than DC/VA/MD residents that go to WCL.

Bottom line, I think it's ludicrous to argue that American has "problems" simply because of its transfer rate.  That argument has absolutely no merit to it at all.  Without providing some kind of statistical basis as to WHY people transfer, then you really have nothing but a number.  If the majority of students move upward to a T14 school to secure better career possibilities, or to move home due to a change of heart - then that is a perfectly relevant reason to do so. 

Again, until you can come up with a substantial explanation of why students elect to transfer, this argument is pointless.


It's a problem because top students are leaving and it reinforces the stereotype that many students are American are unhappy or dissatisfied there.

The transfer stats are on LSAC.

If it is true, as you say, that American has "less than 5% of students" from the DC/VA/MD area and it also true that "people do tend to transfer to areas closer to home", wouldn't it follow that American students are transferring out of state?

You are correct in saying that American doesn't have problems simply because of its transfer rate. It has problems because it is expensive, lacks a large endowment, is located in a building that is way to small for the number of students, and exists in an oversaturated market where it is the arguably the 7th best regional school (behind GTown, GW, GMU, Maryland, UVA, William and Mary). Its core problems may act as the cause for the transfer rate. 

As for your demand for a substantial explanation of why students elect to transfer, we are back to speculation. It is unquestionably a phenomenon unique to American, though certainly an undesirable one.
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