Law School Discussion

The Tulane Thread on Tulane Greatness: Got Questions?

Re: The Tulane Thread on Tulane Greatness: Got Questions?
« Reply #2460 on: April 13, 2009, 02:31:00 PM »
No.  SMU, Fordham, BU, Dozo, Brooklyn, GMU, GW, etc.  These schools have inflated LSAT/GPA averages because people go to law school where they live/want to work.

I love NOLA and it was a selling point for me, but Tulane is ranked where it is DESPITE being in New Orleans.  Look at the ranking trends - schools in big cities are climbing faster than any other group.

Not true.  Lots of classmates came b/c they got BIG MONEY and the city is a good town for three years.

Look at our LSATs compared to GW and BU and WashU.  Very different.  The job placement and faculty at these places are different also.  If Tulane were in DC, our rank would be lower due to our LSATs as compared to, say, GW.

Not my opinion - just the stats.

Please explain why SMU, BU, Fordham, GW, and Dozo are increasing their LSAT averages at a faster pace than Tulane.  Please explain why NYU is T5 and UMich is T10.  The stats show higher averages in large markets, why?  How do these law schools attract superior students?

Tulane is an old, relatively prestigious school.  Our law school was established early and well funded.  If we were in a large metropolitan area - we would be ranked higher.  Our LSAT averages would have increased at a higher rate.  What about this don't you understand?

Superior students? One thing is for sure, you will learn, within about five years, that the undergraduate students with the highest grades are not always the best students, the undergraduate students with the highest grades do not always make the best law students, and the best law students do not make the best lawyers. This I am certain of.

The best lawyers tend to be B+ students with competitive LSAT scores, and for obvious reasons. They have the work ethic to get things done, but without the attitude of entitlement, so they work harder. Many tend to be underacheivers who, but for a few circumstances, would have those 3.9 GPA's and 169 LSAT's. On top of that, their social skills are better-developed, so they can interact in a variety of situations, as opposed to the high acheiver who knows little on the social scale.

"Superior students"? Think again.

Re: The Tulane Thread on Tulane Greatness: Got Questions?
« Reply #2461 on: April 13, 2009, 02:36:20 PM »
I get the feeling that if Tulane were in the midwest/northeast, it would be seen as more in the caliber of Fordham, Boston-U, Washington-U, GWU or USC.

Northeast?  Yes.  Extra population = rankings boost.
Midwest? Probably not.  Not public + endowment income doesn't rival WUSTL's.  Tulane couldn't subsidize.

Tulane would be t35 in Dallas or Houston.

Not that we would want it anywhere else...

U mean on USNWR? Why does THAT ranking dominate everyone's thinking when it's as flawed as any? And Tulane IS ranked in the top-35 on Law School 100 or whatever. I think Tulane does an outstanding job of placing its grads. Look at employment stats and you will quickly see that Tulane places well in every major market...better than many schools ranked above it.

Re: The Tulane Thread on Tulane Greatness: Got Questions?
« Reply #2462 on: April 13, 2009, 02:44:28 PM »
I get the feeling that if Tulane were in the midwest/northeast, it would be seen as more in the caliber of Fordham, Boston-U, Washington-U, GWU or USC.
If you compare the T numbers to the GW or BU numbers, you see they are much different.

T is more like a UConn or maybe Maryland, it seems.  Very very strong but not a GW or WashU.

Yes, but those numbers (GPA's, LSAT', and even scholarly citations) would theoretically be different. Look at the facts. New Orleans isn't for everyone. And many people who might cansider Tulane do not because of ignorance about the city, Katrina, etc. Sometimes schools attract because of self-fulfilling prophesy, not because of what's actually inside of the package. And Tulane has an excellent package. If Tulane kept everything the same, but moved to D.C., got a bigger library due to the needs created by geographic demand...you'd be looking at a GWU or maybe even a Georgetown.

What people tend to do is compare schools "as they are". Move Tulane and keep its core qualities intact and I would venture to think it would be much more prestigious...to the point of leapfrogging about 20-25 schools

And forget USNWR, it has little credibility, outside of the top-10, in my mind.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/tulane-law-school.html


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Re: The Tulane Thread on Tulane Greatness: Got Questions?
« Reply #2463 on: April 13, 2009, 04:17:49 PM »
I get the feeling that if Tulane were in the midwest/northeast, it would be seen as more in the caliber of Fordham, Boston-U, Washington-U, GWU or USC.
If you compare the T numbers to the GW or BU numbers, you see they are much different.

T is more like a UConn or maybe Maryland, it seems.  Very very strong but not a GW or WashU.

Yes, but those numbers (GPA's, LSAT', and even scholarly citations) would theoretically be different. Look at the facts. New Orleans isn't for everyone. And many people who might cansider Tulane do not because of ignorance about the city, Katrina, etc. Sometimes schools attract because of self-fulfilling prophesy, not because of what's actually inside of the package. And Tulane has an excellent package. If Tulane kept everything the same, but moved to D.C., got a bigger library due to the needs created by geographic demand...you'd be looking at a GWU or maybe even a Georgetown.

What people tend to do is compare schools "as they are". Move Tulane and keep its core qualities intact and I would venture to think it would be much more prestigious...to the point of leapfrogging about 20-25 schools

And forget USNWR, it has little credibility, outside of the top-10, in my mind.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/tulane-law-school.html



Actually, what people tend to do is to compare schools by reputation, not "as they are."  And again with the citing of TLS.  While I'm at it, I'd like to say thanks for making it so obvious where you're heading next year. 

Cheers!  :)

P.S. I'm just pointing out ways in which LawDog is wrong.  It's a demanding job but somebody's got to do it! 

Nothing but love for Tulane.  :)

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Re: The Tulane Thread on Tulane Greatness: Got Questions?
« Reply #2464 on: April 13, 2009, 04:47:49 PM »
Lawdog was pretty incorrect in much of what he said...

*walks away from conversation*

Re: The Tulane Thread on Tulane Greatness: Got Questions?
« Reply #2465 on: April 14, 2009, 06:34:00 PM »
I am not sure what "Dozo" is so I cannot respond to that.

But I can respond to GW and WashU, for example.  Both schools are ranked higher than Tulane in part b/c their students have higher ranked LSATs and they have different faculty.  If we transport Tulane to St. Louis, for example, our ranking will FALL, if anything, because some of us came to Tulane b/c it is in New Orleans.  I am not sure I would be a student at a Tulane in St. Louis.  And I am not sure our new dean or our faculty would all have come to Tulane if it were in St. Louis.

Woah! That's getting really close to talking smack on St. Louis. You'd better watch yourself.

Re: The Tulane Thread on Tulane Greatness: Got Questions?
« Reply #2466 on: April 14, 2009, 06:35:04 PM »
I'm at Tulane and I created an account just to say this: Lawdog is insane.

I like my school and I'm happy with my time here, but this guy has got to be the most poorly informed and naive 1L on a board with many competitors for the title.

Tulane is a decent albeit expensive private school in a Southern market.  It has some alumni spread out around the country, but it's far from 'national.'  We're getting hammered by the downturn and job placement has been in decline for years.  It doesn't mean we don't do alright, but you're insane if you've actually convinced yourself that Tulane would be some kind of T25 level program if it were just located in a less economically depressed and remote area.  

Tulane is a good option if your LSAT is low, you can't get into any other similarly ranked programs at a cheaper price, you're okay with taking a job somewhere in the vicinity of the Gulf Coast, or you either have a huge scholarship or the money isn't an issue.  Make no mistake - this school is currently a very big gamble if you're paying sticker.  NOLA isn't as cheap as many think and Tulane's tuition is outrageous.  It's very expensive, it's not national, and you'll need to be Coif or close if you think you're going to be earning a market salary in any city, let alone mid-sized markets outside of the Southeastern states and Houston.  Our admissions office has been fudging the job numbers for years, and many of the partners good decent firms who people are eager to point to graduated long ago when Tulane was more prominent.  For the few younger ones you can find here and there in DC and NYC, you'll notice that nearly all of them were Coif or similarly high-achieving.  You'll need to be well above top quarter at Tulane to have a serious chance at any sort of traditional Biglaw route, and probably even higher for the next few years.  Obviously we're not so hot on good clerkships and government either - Tulane's bread and butter has always been good private firm placement, and that is inarguably much weaker now that it was in the past.

Again, I like my school and I'm not trashing it.  I have a job (thankfully), and I loved NOLA.  Tulane was a good thing for me.  But, I really do have to laugh when I see 0Ls working themselves into a frenzy while building the school up to be something that it's not.  This only seems to happen with Tulane as well - I don't see the insane rationalizing and naivete for schools like Wake, or Case, or some of the lower ranked flagships like Florida and Maryland, which are all basically peer schools to Tulane.  You see it to some extent with ascendant private schools like Emory and WUSTL, but I'd say it's far more justified in their cases.  Schools like Emory now provide the sort of placement that Tulane had fifteen years ago due to being able to purchase better students and faculty and slowly making the rankings climb based on their increasing prominence.

Re: The Tulane Thread on Tulane Greatness: Got Questions?
« Reply #2467 on: April 14, 2009, 06:38:41 PM »
Ok...  quick change of topic..

I just wanted to remind everyone to put in their vote for SBA whatevers on Thurs, April 16 from 9 am - 4 pm.  You can do it on the Intranet.  :)

Thanks for that info! I seriously didn't know when the elections were being held, although I know who I'm voting for.

I also want to send a heads up to anyone who missed it today that the Environmental Law Journal is holding an informational session in the MPR at 12 on Thursday.

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Re: The Tulane Thread on Tulane Greatness: Got Questions?
« Reply #2468 on: April 14, 2009, 07:23:22 PM »
We're getting hammered by the downturn and job placement has been in decline for years[/b].

The 2002-2008 boom was good to Tulane.  Last year there were more than a few 25-50% grads with market.

This year has been brutal for everyone...

Re: The Tulane Thread on Tulane Greatness: Got Questions?
« Reply #2469 on: April 14, 2009, 07:34:47 PM »
"Last year there were more than a few 25-50% grads with market."

I know you're the man on here, but where did that number come from? 

My impression, gathered from some people in the administration and the people I knew in the class, was that it wasn't anything near that. Frankly 25-50% is a pretty broad estimate.  50% at market private salaries is comparable or better than schools like UT or Vanderbilt.