Law School Discussion

Thoughts on the Jena 6

obamacon

  • ****
  • 3125
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #180 on: October 06, 2007, 02:30:07 PM »
Also, isn't it some sort of fallacy or something to take isolated incidents and make categorical statements from them?

Yep.

Quote
I'm tired and distracted now - what's that called again?

Check with Miss P.

Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #181 on: October 06, 2007, 02:32:14 PM »
I'm fairly sure that my position is the correct one. I'm always weary though when known racists agree with me.
"Weary", are you?  Are you sure you're not wary?

Kirk Lazarus

  • ****
  • 1967
  • I'm a lead farmer, mofo
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #182 on: October 06, 2007, 02:33:37 PM »
I'm fairly sure that my position is the correct one. I'm always weary though when known racists agree with me.
"Weary", are you?  Are you sure you're not wary?

Probably.

t...

  • ****
  • 2365
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #183 on: October 06, 2007, 05:09:09 PM »
Also, isn't it some sort of fallacy or something to take isolated incidents and make categorical statements from them?

Yep.

I'm glad we agree.


Miss P

  • *****
  • 19300
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #184 on: October 06, 2007, 06:39:29 PM »
Part of the issue is that contemporary black culture seeks any opportunity for victimhood available, so much so that a drunken crack dealer leaving a notorious brothel who tries to run over and is fired on first by a black police officer stands as an example of institutional racism. What's worse is that many blacks actually identify with the a-hole, practically beatifying an obviously terrible person.

I would go through and do a "breadboy treatment" of this account, but it's not worth it.  I am skeptical, of course, of any claims you make to understand and assess "contemporary black culture," but this is especially true when you base your criticisms on, what, a memorial set up by family of a man who was shot dead on the eve of his wedding?  Neighbors' concern that -- given the facts as they knew them* -- the same thing could happen to them or their loved ones?  Community demands for investigation and prosecution of clear violations of police policy and likely violations of the law?  This is pathetic.

Accepting the facts as you've outlined them, I don't think being drunk, dealing crack, going to a strip club/brothel for your bachelor party, and trying to get away from people (unidentified as cops) chasing after you, and even purposefully trying to hit an unidentified person aiming a gun at you with your car mean you should be killed in a hail of fifty gunshots. Was Sean Bell a great guy?  No.  But the police officers, at the least, violated department regulations about whether to shoot at moving vehicles (fifty times).  They also likely violated the law about use of lethal force.  Perhaps it's not a perfect example of institutional racism (unlike some other notorious police shootings in NYC over the past several years) given that the cops had some reason to believe they were in danger and that a crime was imminent, but this doesn't change the fact that they police black neighborhoods more heavily, view young black men out at night or in high-crime neighborhoods with automatic suspicion (as long as they aren't in uniform), associate fear of police with violent criminal activity (see, e.g., Wardlow), and pull guns on black men much faster than they do on anyone else.  This isn't right, even for crack dealers and johns.  I don't see any problem with community concern -- and even outrage -- about this incident, regardless of Bell's character flaws and alleged criminal history.

In any case, this has nothing to do with Jena.  I mentioned those names because of your claim that only African American, and not African immigrant and West Indian, black men experience what some of us in this thread have described as racism.  The "isolated" and "he was a real bad guy" defenses don't explain away the common thread between those victims -- the fact that they were black men.  

p.s. The fallacy tj. outlined is the fallacy of composition or of hasty generalization (they are the same for this purpose).  I might instead describe yours as the fallacy of the biased sample or of two wrongs making a right.


*Remember, this was when our white, Republican mayor had called the shooting "unacceptable" and "inexplicable" and described himself as "deeply disturbed" by the officers' "excessive force."

naturallybeyoutiful

  • ****
  • 1203
  • Everything is everything
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #185 on: October 06, 2007, 09:54:49 PM »
So I thought I'd give my 2 cents on the Jena 6.  Probably discussed here before, but whatev.

I definitely have problems with the way these boys were treated by the legal system...

However it really bothers me how *certain* black people are handling this incident.  Everyone seems to be rallying around these boys as though they're heros (I believe I've actually heard this word used before).

These boys, though victims of the criminal justice system, aren't heros.  There's nothing laudable about beating someone until they're unconscious, especially when you're in a group of six friends and you're attacking someone who's alone.

I understand the racial tensions, the nooses, that the kid who was beaten was using racial slurs and in general all the bad stuff the white residents of the town did to the black ones, but violence is never the appropriate response.  And from what I understand, it wasn't a fight gone awry, they really just jumped him.

Like I said, the outcry over this case is deserved, but I think people should save the rally cries for people who really deserve it... Emmitt Till, Abner Louima, etc.  While I understand their plight, I don't think these guys are wonderful people who deserve our reverence.

And while the proceedings against them were a joke, as I said, they did beat a guy until he was knocked out.  Which deserves significant punishment IMO if not the exaggerated sentences that they're facing.

Fwiw, I totally agree!!!!  I'm sure a number of good points have been raised on both sides in the 15 pagews of this thread (that I don't have time to read  :D), but I just wanted to chime in and say -- you took the words right out of my mouth!!

Burning Sands, Esq.

  • *****
  • 6525
  • Yes We Kan-sas!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #186 on: October 06, 2007, 11:29:46 PM »
There are none more blind than those who won't see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platitude



Quote
There's not much more we can do, absent allowing you to walk in our shoes, to show you that racism is alive and well in the U.S. in 2007.

Part of the issue is that contemporary black culture seeks any opportunity for victimhood available, so much so that a drunken crack dealer leaving a notorious brothel who tries to run over and is fired on first by a black police officer stands as an example of institutional racism. What's worse is that many blacks actually identify with the a-hole, practically beatifying an obviously terrible person.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

t...

  • ****
  • 2365
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #187 on: October 07, 2007, 11:15:45 AM »
Quit writing so much. It's no secret Breadboy both flames and trolls.



obamacon

  • ****
  • 3125
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #188 on: October 07, 2007, 12:13:36 PM »
I would go through and do a "breadboy treatment" of this account, but it's not worth it.  I am skeptical, of course, of any claims you make to understand and assess "contemporary black culture," but this is especially true when you base your criticisms on, what, a memorial set up by family of a man who was shot dead on the eve of his wedding?  Neighbors' concern that -- given the facts as they knew them* -- the same thing could happen to them or their loved ones?  Community demands for investigation and prosecution of clear violations of police policy and likely violations of the law?  This is pathetic.

Would you acknowledge that memorials can be inappropriate/ridiculous, say (at the extreme) Eric Harris?


Quote
Accepting the facts as you've outlined them, I don't think being drunk, dealing crack, going to a strip club/brothel for your bachelor party, and trying to get away from people (unidentified as cops) chasing after you, and even purposefully trying to hit an unidentified person aiming a gun at you with your car mean you should be killed in a hail of fifty gunshots.


I do. Trying to run someone over is trying to kill them. When someone is trying to kill you you fire until they are definitely dead which can take some time to ascertain if they're driving a vehicle.



Quote
Perhaps it's not a perfect example of institutional racism (unlike some other notorious police shootings in NYC over the past several years) given that the cops had some reason to believe they were in danger and that a crime was imminent,


This is ridiculous. It isn't even a slight example of racism, institutional or otherwise.

Quote
but this doesn't change the fact that they police black neighborhoods more heavily, view young black men out at night or in high-crime neighborhoods with automatic suspicion (as long as they aren't in uniform), associate fear of police with violent criminal activity (see, e.g., Wardlow), and pull guns on black men much faster than they do on anyone else.  This isn't right, even for crack dealers and johns.  I don't see any problem with community concern -- and even outrage -- about this incident,

This is tangential at best. However, we do need to have a discussion about some of this (i.e. if blacks are being targeted as a class why is it that only a smaller subset of the population is involved in 95% of the incidents?)



Quote
regardless of Bell's character flaws and alleged criminal history.

Alleged?

Quote
In any case, this has nothing to do with Jena.  I mentioned those names because of your claim that only African American, and not African immigrant and West Indian, black men experience what some of us in this thread have described as racism.  The "isolated" and "he was a real bad guy" defenses don't explain away the common thread between those victims -- the fact that they were black men. 

I was responding to Sands. But as a side note, anyone who reaches for things when the police say hands up is asking to die, black, white, or otherwise.



Quote
*Remember, this was when our white, Republican mayor had called the shooting "unacceptable" and "inexplicable" and described himself as "deeply disturbed" by the officers' "excessive force."

I don't see automatic comrades in white faces, sorry.

obamacon

  • ****
  • 3125
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #189 on: October 07, 2007, 12:26:50 PM »
Doesn't that generally contradict with almost everything you've said in this thread?

Nope.