Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: Thoughts on the Jena 6  (Read 27563 times)

t...

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2380
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #180 on: October 06, 2007, 04:00:49 PM »

Part of the issue is that contemporary black culture seeks any opportunity for victimhood available...what's worse is that many blacks actually identify with the a-hole, practically beatifying an obviously terrible person.

Link?

Quote
Cady on October 16, 2007, 10:41:52 PM

i rhink tyi'm inejying my fudgcicle too much

Quote
Huey on February 07, 2007, 11:15:32 PM

I went to a party in an apartment in a silo once.

obamacon

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3156
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #181 on: October 06, 2007, 04:20:49 PM »
Link?

Quote

"These raids have infuriated a Black community, as well as many others in New York, who are already boiling over with anger at the murder of yet another unarmed young Black man. “I think what they’re doing is repulsive, disgusting and deplorable,” said Bishop Erskine Williams Sr., whose son is a good friend of Trent Benefield’s and was arrested during the raids for an unpaid summons of $25. “They’re trying to put together something to cover up an assassination, an execution of this young boy,” Erskine Williams Sr. said.

The people’s rage over the execution of Sean Bell pulsed on Liverpool St. last week, where a memorial area has been carefully and lovingly set up right next to the iron gate that Sean’s car backed into as he and his two friends tried to escape. On the sidewalk are dozens of lighted candles, bouquets of white carnations and red roses, and a large, multi-colored flowered wreath sitting on a triangular stand, with a photo of Sean, Nicole, and one of their two young daughters in the hollowed center of the wreath. And taped to the brick wall standing above the sidewalk is the question posed at the beginning of this article, of who will tell the truth of what happened on this street in the early morning hours of Nov. 25, along with a number of other posted thoughts and comments.

One of these is a neatly typed letter addressed to the NYPD and signed by “a mother of 3 African-American sons and 2 African-American grandsons.” It reads, in part: “Last Saturday’s encounter was nothing less than an execution. What is painfully, frightfully obvious to Black people is that those young men could have been ANY BLACK MEN, and it wouldn’t matter about their social or economic status. However, know this: We are collectively mad as hell and are not taking it anymore!!!”

lol. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dib2-HBsF08

Continuing...

Quote

One day last week, a number of people visiting the memorial, both from the neighborhood but also from other parts of the city, expressed to a Revolution reporter their anger and anguish but also their determination to help bring these executions to a halt. Said a woman who was born in the country of Jamaica but has lived in the U.S. for 35 years, many of them in Jamaica, N.Y.:

    “I think the police are the Ku Klux Klan. I think they’ve got that uniform on, but they’re really the KKK. And I think it’s a conspiracy of them to kill as many Black youth as they possibly can…. Right now, we Black people have like a slavery syndrome, where we are scared to fight. So anybody, especially the cops, can do anything they want and get away with it. But I personally believe it’s time for us to fight back. I have three sons and they grew up in this country but I sent them to London, where we’re originally from, after leaving Jamaica, because I didn’t want the cops killing them. I haven’t seen one of my sons for 21 years, and I haven’t seen another one for 14. But if they were in this country I probably would have had to bury them a long time ago. So even though I can’t see them, I know they’re alive. Although, on the other hand, I know England is not much better in how they treat Blacks—not much better, but better than what happens to them here. That really says something about this country, doesn’t it?”


http://rwor.org/a/072/seanbell-en.html

One of many.

t...

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2380
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #182 on: October 06, 2007, 04:24:52 PM »


One of many.


I seem to remember someone saying "isolated" quite a few times earlier in the thread.

Also, isn't it some sort of fallacy or something to take isolated incidents and make categorical statements from them? I'm tired and distracted now - what's that called again?

Quote
Cady on October 16, 2007, 10:41:52 PM

i rhink tyi'm inejying my fudgcicle too much

Quote
Huey on February 07, 2007, 11:15:32 PM

I went to a party in an apartment in a silo once.

obamacon

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3156
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #183 on: October 06, 2007, 04:30:07 PM »
Also, isn't it some sort of fallacy or something to take isolated incidents and make categorical statements from them?

Yep.

Quote
I'm tired and distracted now - what's that called again?

Check with Miss P.

I can has lauskul!

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #184 on: October 06, 2007, 04:32:14 PM »
I'm fairly sure that my position is the correct one. I'm always weary though when known racists agree with me.
"Weary", are you?  Are you sure you're not wary?

Kirk Lazarus

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2042
  • I'm a lead farmer, mofo
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #185 on: October 06, 2007, 04:33:37 PM »
I'm fairly sure that my position is the correct one. I'm always weary though when known racists agree with me.
"Weary", are you?  Are you sure you're not wary?

Probably.
YLS c/o 2009

t...

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2380
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #186 on: October 06, 2007, 07:09:09 PM »
Also, isn't it some sort of fallacy or something to take isolated incidents and make categorical statements from them?

Yep.

I'm glad we agree.

Quote
Cady on October 16, 2007, 10:41:52 PM

i rhink tyi'm inejying my fudgcicle too much

Quote
Huey on February 07, 2007, 11:15:32 PM

I went to a party in an apartment in a silo once.

Miss P

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 21337
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #187 on: October 06, 2007, 08:39:29 PM »
Part of the issue is that contemporary black culture seeks any opportunity for victimhood available, so much so that a drunken crack dealer leaving a notorious brothel who tries to run over and is fired on first by a black police officer stands as an example of institutional racism. What's worse is that many blacks actually identify with the a-hole, practically beatifying an obviously terrible person.

I would go through and do a "breadboy treatment" of this account, but it's not worth it.  I am skeptical, of course, of any claims you make to understand and assess "contemporary black culture," but this is especially true when you base your criticisms on, what, a memorial set up by family of a man who was shot dead on the eve of his wedding?  Neighbors' concern that -- given the facts as they knew them* -- the same thing could happen to them or their loved ones?  Community demands for investigation and prosecution of clear violations of police policy and likely violations of the law?  This is pathetic.

Accepting the facts as you've outlined them, I don't think being drunk, dealing crack, going to a strip club/brothel for your bachelor party, and trying to get away from people (unidentified as cops) chasing after you, and even purposefully trying to hit an unidentified person aiming a gun at you with your car mean you should be killed in a hail of fifty gunshots. Was Sean Bell a great guy?  No.  But the police officers, at the least, violated department regulations about whether to shoot at moving vehicles (fifty times).  They also likely violated the law about use of lethal force.  Perhaps it's not a perfect example of institutional racism (unlike some other notorious police shootings in NYC over the past several years) given that the cops had some reason to believe they were in danger and that a crime was imminent, but this doesn't change the fact that they police black neighborhoods more heavily, view young black men out at night or in high-crime neighborhoods with automatic suspicion (as long as they aren't in uniform), associate fear of police with violent criminal activity (see, e.g., Wardlow), and pull guns on black men much faster than they do on anyone else.  This isn't right, even for crack dealers and johns.  I don't see any problem with community concern -- and even outrage -- about this incident, regardless of Bell's character flaws and alleged criminal history.

In any case, this has nothing to do with Jena.  I mentioned those names because of your claim that only African American, and not African immigrant and West Indian, black men experience what some of us in this thread have described as racism.  The "isolated" and "he was a real bad guy" defenses don't explain away the common thread between those victims -- the fact that they were black men.  

p.s. The fallacy tj. outlined is the fallacy of composition or of hasty generalization (they are the same for this purpose).  I might instead describe yours as the fallacy of the biased sample or of two wrongs making a right.


*Remember, this was when our white, Republican mayor had called the shooting "unacceptable" and "inexplicable" and described himself as "deeply disturbed" by the officers' "excessive force."
That's cool how you referenced a case.

Quote from: archival
I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.

naturallybeyoutiful

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
  • Everything is everything
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #188 on: October 06, 2007, 11:54:49 PM »
So I thought I'd give my 2 cents on the Jena 6.  Probably discussed here before, but whatev.

I definitely have problems with the way these boys were treated by the legal system...

However it really bothers me how *certain* black people are handling this incident.  Everyone seems to be rallying around these boys as though they're heros (I believe I've actually heard this word used before).

These boys, though victims of the criminal justice system, aren't heros.  There's nothing laudable about beating someone until they're unconscious, especially when you're in a group of six friends and you're attacking someone who's alone.

I understand the racial tensions, the nooses, that the kid who was beaten was using racial slurs and in general all the bad stuff the white residents of the town did to the black ones, but violence is never the appropriate response.  And from what I understand, it wasn't a fight gone awry, they really just jumped him.

Like I said, the outcry over this case is deserved, but I think people should save the rally cries for people who really deserve it... Emmitt Till, Abner Louima, etc.  While I understand their plight, I don't think these guys are wonderful people who deserve our reverence.

And while the proceedings against them were a joke, as I said, they did beat a guy until he was knocked out.  Which deserves significant punishment IMO if not the exaggerated sentences that they're facing.

Fwiw, I totally agree!!!!  I'm sure a number of good points have been raised on both sides in the 15 pagews of this thread (that I don't have time to read  :D), but I just wanted to chime in and say -- you took the words right out of my mouth!!
Harvard Law: What, like it's hard?

Burning Sands, Esq.

  • Global Moderator
  • LSD Obsessed
  • ****
  • Posts: 7072
  • Yes We Kan-sas!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts on the Jena 6
« Reply #189 on: October 07, 2007, 01:29:46 AM »
There are none more blind than those who won't see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platitude



Quote
There's not much more we can do, absent allowing you to walk in our shoes, to show you that racism is alive and well in the U.S. in 2007.

Part of the issue is that contemporary black culture seeks any opportunity for victimhood available, so much so that a drunken crack dealer leaving a notorious brothel who tries to run over and is fired on first by a black police officer stands as an example of institutional racism. What's worse is that many blacks actually identify with the a-hole, practically beatifying an obviously terrible person.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
"A lawyer's either a social engineer or a parasite on society. A social engineer is a highly skilled...lawyer who understands the Constitution of the U.S. and knows how to explore its uses in the solving of problems of local communities and in bettering [our] conditions."
Charles H. Houston