Law School Discussion

[Some] minorities [agree]....Class based AA.

Kirk Lazarus

  • ****
  • 1967
  • I'm a lead farmer, mofo
    • View Profile
Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2007, 07:52:57 PM »
Point, but it's also a culture. The dealers then spend their money on drugs, clothes and cars instead of appreciating assets. Shoot, if one of those high school dealers cleaned his money and invested it. He could get out in one year.

It's not just dealers who spend their money that way. How many cars do you see with $5k rims in the ghetto. That's enough to get out. Why don't they leave the environment?

Edit: So how does one fix it? After all, gangs are a culture.

Well, I did a lot of work with gangs in DC and I tend to see gang culture as a unfortunate transformation of militant civil rights groups. This is not only true of the Black gangs in DC, but in the south side of Chicago, LA, Louisiana and elsewhere. The problem started with welfare and the incentive given for Black men to leave their families.

I define culture as learned behavior. And in a sense the gang problem in its most simplistic sense is a cultural problem. It is a problem of young men without fathers learning how to be "men" from other young men without fathers. Unfortunately, what results is a perversion of what it means to "be a man." Outward expressions of ultra machismo and aggression are seen as masculine.

In an economic sense, gangs are not the worst problem. For all our talk about education and higher education, the reality is that many inner city Blacks (or poor whites, Asians or Hispanics for that matter) aren't going to ever have the doors of higher education open to them. The reason I single out Blacks in particular is that a white former felon is more desirable as an employee than a never incarcerated Black male all other things being equal. When we pitch to young African Americans that drugs aren't the answer, we don't take into account the fact that there is a significant amount of lender discrimination making it difficult for entrepreneurship, affordable home interest rates, etc.

So the situation is pretty bleak. You have a good portion of Black Males aged 18-32 incarcerated. The poor Black men that have never been incarcerated are the 2nd least desirable employees behind illegal immigrants and practice and custom make it difficult for economic development that benefit poor residents.

In one sense, we could ask gang members to invest illegal money in the market and then laugh at them in April when they get indicted. Or we can recognize that the problem is actually symptomatic of pretty deep rooted environmental, economic and social factors beyond the control of the individual. Thus, the solution has to be systematic imo. Sure, there are problems with the "culture," but then again those that are playing by the rules aren't exactly getting ahead either as your example illustrates.

Kirk Lazarus

  • ****
  • 1967
  • I'm a lead farmer, mofo
    • View Profile
Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2007, 08:20:03 PM »
This thread was making some progress before the petty bickering took over. Hopefully we can return to that. I usually don't get into these AA debates because people approach with closed ears but I saw a few legitimately open minded questions and propositions advanced here that I wanted to weigh in on.

First of all, as an aside, "The smart minorities get it..." is just a tad bit insulting, and factually incorrect to boot. Support for the proposition underlying this disrespectful statement could more easily be garnered by simply rewording the title of this thread to reflect that some minorities agree with Class Based AA as opposed to Race Based AA - but to say that only the smart minorities are in agreement with class based AA is ridiculous.  I would urge blondngreen to rename the title of this thread if he/she is serious about encouraging an intellectual discourse about the topic.  A simple "Class Based AA" would suffice.  But moving on...

It's an assertion, or a statement of opinion.  Kind of like "AA is necessary."  We can debate the truth of both statements, but I personally agree with the idea (though I would change "smart" to "thoughtful.")


I agree with the legitimacy of the class based AA.  Rich kids (white or black) certainly don't need any more help getting into professional schools, and many legacies who fall into the upper middle to upper class will get admitted into schools that they didn't necessarily deserve with the assistance of their own form of affirmative action: by virtue of their legacy status. (although nobody seems to be pissed off about this for some strange reason)  But at the end of the day, if you were to take a pool of America and ask everybody do you think school admissions should be based on race or based on income, most people (both black and white) will say based on income.

Excellent post, although signficant legacy preference in law school appears extremely rare.  To the rare extent this occurs, I think it's considered less offensive because it's not a form of racial discrimination.


Somebody asked a good question: what argument remains for the race based AA once we accept the legitimacy of class based AA?  Unfortunately there is one glaring argument that remains even for those of us who agree and support Class Based AA, which ties into what Opera Attorney pointed out - blacks, latinos, and other minorities are still, in 2007, discriminated against in employment and the professional setting

How so?  We need more concrete evidence of this, especially since the evidence appears to indicate that minorities are actually favored in hiring these days.


and what's worse is that, despite 40 years worth of AA, minorities still exist only in very very very small numbers in the legal profession.  White males still continue to dominate the working worlds of biglaw and big-business long after we have all left the 3 or 4 year academic setting of law school, med school, etc.

Now, this is indisputably true.  However, a differential in results doesn't necessarily mean the cause is discrimination.  For example, jews and asians have historically faced discrimination, but they are OVERrepresented in various professional fields.  Blacks are also overrepresented in sports and music -- again not necessarily the result of discrimination. 


In other words, when attempting to remedy past wrongs and level the playing fields with an AA program, too many of us who support class based AA focus on getting into school and stop there - as if that's the entire purpose of class based AA.  The issue being addressed by Class Based AA doesn't end by merely getting into law school, folks.

The problem, to me, is that this "issue" appears primarily cultural, not societal.  Jews predominate in law because of their cultural background and aspirations.  Hispanics are underrepresented because of a different cultural background.  The idea that we should favor certain cultures simply because they prepare their members less well seems questionable -- especially since this doesn't really motivate the culture to adapt and change.


Even though I agree with the legitimacy of Class Based AA, I am less certain that we, as a nation, are in a position even in 2007 where we can completely swap out one for the other.  I would certainly like for us to be, but the fact of the matter is that we are not.  I am hopeful that we can be there someday.  Former Justice O'Connor estimated that day at being 25 years in the future.  Who knows.  But one thing is for certain, we're not there yet.  Replacing Race Based with Class Based now is premature.  Even Obama (one of the alleged "smart minorities" according to the blondngreen) is very clear on this topic when asked about the state of race in America - he says that he believes that America is ready to get past it's race problem, which is to say that it still has a problem that it needs to get past.

Obama is certainly entitled to his opinion.  However, the real question, again, is why certain minorities struggle once educational opportunity it controlled for.  To me, again, the primary problem is cultural, and people like Obama himself are clear examples of the fact that there is no nebulous, impervious force preventing minorities from achieving academically -- it ultimately comes down to the individual, and, perhaps, his family outlook.  It is therefore unclear to me that creating different standards for minorities is the answer to this question. 

I stopped reading at the bolded.

Why so?

1. It is erroneous. Legacy preferences in law school admissions is not rare.
2. Legacy admissions is an indirect form of racial discrimination.

Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2007, 08:25:58 PM »
I loathe the way you dissect everything. Respond in a response, not like you're highlighting a RC section. It's conversational and not so confrontational.

The Tony Kushner was for eastend. Clear in context. Perhaps you need to read more and quote less?

Kirk Lazarus

  • ****
  • 1967
  • I'm a lead farmer, mofo
    • View Profile
Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2007, 08:33:30 PM »
This thread was making some progress before the petty bickering took over. Hopefully we can return to that. I usually don't get into these AA debates because people approach with closed ears but I saw a few legitimately open minded questions and propositions advanced here that I wanted to weigh in on.

First of all, as an aside, "The smart minorities get it..." is just a tad bit insulting, and factually incorrect to boot. Support for the proposition underlying this disrespectful statement could more easily be garnered by simply rewording the title of this thread to reflect that some minorities agree with Class Based AA as opposed to Race Based AA - but to say that only the smart minorities are in agreement with class based AA is ridiculous.  I would urge blondngreen to rename the title of this thread if he/she is serious about encouraging an intellectual discourse about the topic.  A simple "Class Based AA" would suffice.  But moving on...

It's an assertion, or a statement of opinion.  Kind of like "AA is necessary."  We can debate the truth of both statements, but I personally agree with the idea (though I would change "smart" to "thoughtful.")


I agree with the legitimacy of the class based AA.  Rich kids (white or black) certainly don't need any more help getting into professional schools, and many legacies who fall into the upper middle to upper class will get admitted into schools that they didn't necessarily deserve with the assistance of their own form of affirmative action: by virtue of their legacy status. (although nobody seems to be pissed off about this for some strange reason)  But at the end of the day, if you were to take a pool of America and ask everybody do you think school admissions should be based on race or based on income, most people (both black and white) will say based on income.

Excellent post, although signficant legacy preference in law school appears extremely rare.  To the rare extent this occurs, I think it's considered less offensive because it's not a form of racial discrimination.


Somebody asked a good question: what argument remains for the race based AA once we accept the legitimacy of class based AA?  Unfortunately there is one glaring argument that remains even for those of us who agree and support Class Based AA, which ties into what Opera Attorney pointed out - blacks, latinos, and other minorities are still, in 2007, discriminated against in employment and the professional setting

How so?  We need more concrete evidence of this, especially since the evidence appears to indicate that minorities are actually favored in hiring these days.


and what's worse is that, despite 40 years worth of AA, minorities still exist only in very very very small numbers in the legal profession.  White males still continue to dominate the working worlds of biglaw and big-business long after we have all left the 3 or 4 year academic setting of law school, med school, etc.

Now, this is indisputably true.  However, a differential in results doesn't necessarily mean the cause is discrimination.  For example, jews and asians have historically faced discrimination, but they are OVERrepresented in various professional fields.  Blacks are also overrepresented in sports and music -- again not necessarily the result of discrimination. 


In other words, when attempting to remedy past wrongs and level the playing fields with an AA program, too many of us who support class based AA focus on getting into school and stop there - as if that's the entire purpose of class based AA.  The issue being addressed by Class Based AA doesn't end by merely getting into law school, folks.

The problem, to me, is that this "issue" appears primarily cultural, not societal.  Jews predominate in law because of their cultural background and aspirations.  Hispanics are underrepresented because of a different cultural background.  The idea that we should favor certain cultures simply because they prepare their members less well seems questionable -- especially since this doesn't really motivate the culture to adapt and change.


Even though I agree with the legitimacy of Class Based AA, I am less certain that we, as a nation, are in a position even in 2007 where we can completely swap out one for the other.  I would certainly like for us to be, but the fact of the matter is that we are not.  I am hopeful that we can be there someday.  Former Justice O'Connor estimated that day at being 25 years in the future.  Who knows.  But one thing is for certain, we're not there yet.  Replacing Race Based with Class Based now is premature.  Even Obama (one of the alleged "smart minorities" according to the blondngreen) is very clear on this topic when asked about the state of race in America - he says that he believes that America is ready to get past it's race problem, which is to say that it still has a problem that it needs to get past.

Obama is certainly entitled to his opinion.  However, the real question, again, is why certain minorities struggle once educational opportunity it controlled for.  To me, again, the primary problem is cultural, and people like Obama himself are clear examples of the fact that there is no nebulous, impervious force preventing minorities from achieving academically -- it ultimately comes down to the individual, and, perhaps, his family outlook.  It is therefore unclear to me that creating different standards for minorities is the answer to this question. 

I stopped reading at the bolded.

Why so?

1. It is erroneous. Legacy preferences in law school admissions is not rare.

Link? 

I'm not aware of any significant boost in law school admissions due to legacy status (in comparison to undergrad, where it clearly exists, but is still usually a relatively small element.)  Law school is far more numbers-driven than undergrad. 


2. Legacy admissions is an indirect form of racial discrimination.

Not really.  Last time I checked, black legacies got the same preferences as white legacies.  There may be less of them, but that doesn't make it racial discrimination.

I'm going to need you to think before you post. Try again.

If you don't think the legacy system doesn't have a discriminatory effect, then I don't know what to tell you? Or maybe you only think it is discrimination if one can prove discriminatory intent. In that case, you belong on the 4th Circuit and hey, you probably got your appointment through the good ole boy system...but that's not discrimination either is it?

Kirk Lazarus

  • ****
  • 1967
  • I'm a lead farmer, mofo
    • View Profile
Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2007, 08:40:02 PM »
anyone reading your posts automatically becomes dumber for having read them, Lindbergh. Just terrible.

t...

  • ****
  • 2365
    • View Profile
Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2007, 09:00:30 PM »
If you can't really respond to someone else's post, you have two options.  You can 1) admit you don't have a response, or 2) not respond at all.

The latter will save you energy. 

HTH.

*Ahem*


OperaAttorney

  • ****
  • 172
  • Freude, Königin der Weise!
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2007, 06:28:28 AM »
This thread was making some progress before the petty bickering took over. Hopefully we can return to that. I usually don't get into these AA debates because people approach with closed ears but I saw a few legitimately open minded questions and propositions advanced here that I wanted to weigh in on.

First of all, as an aside, "The smart minorities get it..." is just a tad bit insulting, and factually incorrect to boot. Support for the proposition underlying this disrespectful statement could more easily be garnered by simply rewording the title of this thread to reflect that some minorities agree with Class Based AA as opposed to Race Based AA - but to say that only the smart minorities are in agreement with class based AA is ridiculous.  I would urge blondngreen to rename the title of this thread if he/she is serious about encouraging an intellectual discourse about the topic.  A simple "Class Based AA" would suffice.  But moving on...

It's an assertion, or a statement of opinion.  Kind of like "AA is necessary."  We can debate the truth of both statements, but I personally agree with the idea (though I would change "smart" to "thoughtful.")


I agree with the legitimacy of the class based AA.  Rich kids (white or black) certainly don't need any more help getting into professional schools, and many legacies who fall into the upper middle to upper class will get admitted into schools that they didn't necessarily deserve with the assistance of their own form of affirmative action: by virtue of their legacy status. (although nobody seems to be pissed off about this for some strange reason)  But at the end of the day, if you were to take a pool of America and ask everybody do you think school admissions should be based on race or based on income, most people (both black and white) will say based on income.

Excellent post, although signficant legacy preference in law school appears extremely rare.  To the rare extent this occurs, I think it's considered less offensive because it's not a form of racial discrimination.


Somebody asked a good question: what argument remains for the race based AA once we accept the legitimacy of class based AA?  Unfortunately there is one glaring argument that remains even for those of us who agree and support Class Based AA, which ties into what Opera Attorney pointed out - blacks, latinos, and other minorities are still, in 2007, discriminated against in employment and the professional setting

How so?  We need more concrete evidence of this, especially since the evidence appears to indicate that minorities are actually favored in hiring these days.


and what's worse is that, despite 40 years worth of AA, minorities still exist only in very very very small numbers in the legal profession.  White males still continue to dominate the working worlds of biglaw and big-business long after we have all left the 3 or 4 year academic setting of law school, med school, etc.

Now, this is indisputably true.  However, a differential in results doesn't necessarily mean the cause is discrimination.  For example, jews and asians have historically faced discrimination, but they are OVERrepresented in various professional fields.  Blacks are also overrepresented in sports and music -- again not necessarily the result of discrimination. 


In other words, when attempting to remedy past wrongs and level the playing fields with an AA program, too many of us who support class based AA focus on getting into school and stop there - as if that's the entire purpose of class based AA.  The issue being addressed by Class Based AA doesn't end by merely getting into law school, folks.

The problem, to me, is that this "issue" appears primarily cultural, not societal.  Jews predominate in law because of their cultural background and aspirations.  Hispanics are underrepresented because of a different cultural background.  The idea that we should favor certain cultures simply because they prepare their members less well seems questionable -- especially since this doesn't really motivate the culture to adapt and change.


Even though I agree with the legitimacy of Class Based AA, I am less certain that we, as a nation, are in a position even in 2007 where we can completely swap out one for the other.  I would certainly like for us to be, but the fact of the matter is that we are not.  I am hopeful that we can be there someday.  Former Justice O'Connor estimated that day at being 25 years in the future.  Who knows.  But one thing is for certain, we're not there yet.  Replacing Race Based with Class Based now is premature.  Even Obama (one of the alleged "smart minorities" according to the blondngreen) is very clear on this topic when asked about the state of race in America - he says that he believes that America is ready to get past it's race problem, which is to say that it still has a problem that it needs to get past.

Obama is certainly entitled to his opinion.  However, the real question, again, is why certain minorities struggle once educational opportunity it controlled for.  To me, again, the primary problem is cultural, and people like Obama himself are clear examples of the fact that there is no nebulous, impervious force preventing minorities from achieving academically -- it ultimately comes down to the individual, and, perhaps, his family outlook.  It is therefore unclear to me that creating different standards for minorities is the answer to this question. 

I stopped reading at the bolded.

I know the feeling.  Let's hope Lindbergh devotes more energy to his law classes.   LOL :).


If you get tired after a few paragraphs of reading, you're going to need a lot more energy for your law classes.   ::)

Although I have  little patience for heavily biased pontification on LSD, I'd endure BS--even from a prof like Richard Sanders--for law school.

Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2007, 10:04:05 AM »
In his response, Obama didn't take the question to a higher level of abstraction and talk generally about the importance of racial diversity; he stuck with the concrete facts. "I think that my daughters should probably be treated by any admissions officer as folks who are pretty advantaged..." Then, he went further, "I think that we should take into account white kids who have been disadvantaged and have grown up in poverty and shown themselves to have what it takes to succeed."

I agree with Obama, we need AA based on circumstance, not race.
Look at all of you ganging up on Lindbergh.  You've nothing substantative to add, you just want to take shots at someone who makes a better case. Keep leaving your pathetic, sarcastic little comments, it's all you have to offer.   Come on, sting me with a witty retort.   

Where would most of you be without AA?   

OperaAttorney

  • ****
  • 172
  • Freude, Königin der Weise!
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2007, 10:22:22 AM »
In his response, Obama didn't take the question to a higher level of abstraction and talk generally about the importance of racial diversity; he stuck with the concrete facts. "I think that my daughters should probably be treated by any admissions officer as folks who are pretty advantaged..." Then, he went further, "I think that we should take into account white kids who have been disadvantaged and have grown up in poverty and shown themselves to have what it takes to succeed."

I agree with Obama, we need AA based on circumstance, not race.
Look at all of you ganging up on Lindbergh.  You've nothing substantative to add, you just want to take shots at someone who makes a better case. Keep leaving your pathetic, sarcastic little comments, it's all you have to offer.   Come on, sting me with a witty retort.   

Where would most of you be without AA?   

Most of us have actively engaged Lindbergh in this AA dialogue. We've discussed opposing viewpoints, cited relevant articles, etc.  Lindbergh hasn't introduced anything new; we've heard it all before.  While I agree with some of his peripheral points, I find his core arguments unacceptable due to his refusal to recognize and acknowledge the TRUE nature of race relations in American society and its negative effects on underrepresented minorities within higher education, particularly within law school and the legal profession. 

At this point, we can agree to disagree although you should note that the Supreme Court still supports race-based AA in the law school admissions process. (O'Connor is not a daft windbag!)  Your ending question does not merit a response from me. And, for the record, Obama did not state (explicitly or otherwise) that race-based AA should be replaced by class-based AA.

OperaAttorney

  • ****
  • 172
  • Freude, Königin der Weise!
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2007, 10:46:39 AM »
I don't really think your arguments matter.  We all can see that a poor white person who attends terrible schools deserves some form of AA and that Barack Obama's kids don't, but minority groups are a very powerful force in this country and they will fight to defeat class based AA.  I remember Clinton talked about changing the system and of in stepped Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson complaining.  It's stupid to think minorities don't have power.  There really isn't any group specifically lobbying to get poor whites preferential treatment.  I agree with previous posters that AA will be abolished, and not a minute too soon.
P.S.  The most racist people I ever met were black.  Just my own personal experience growing up in a poor area of NO.

I had to peruse the thread to see if you were a newcomer.

P.S. The most racist people I ever met were white, but there are prejudiced people in every ethnic group.