[Some] minorities [agree]....Class based AA.

[bluepeter]

Girl, chill the f*** out.  AA is educational welfare - do you really think that their going to give up their benefits without a fight?  They'll put forth more energy defending their entitlement to AA than they will for the LSAT. 

"They"?  LOL

Down Syndrome is nothing to laugh at. 

Why don't you just die, you stoopidcu**.  You're using Downs to make points.  What a fu**wit. 

I wasn't actually making a point.  I was just poking fun at you. 

Oh, but I should have added the disclaimer: Sincerest apologies to anyone whom I've offended, who might have loved ones who suffer from Downs Syndrome.  It's really not the sort of thing to joke about, and I regret my momentary lapse in judgment. 

Better? 

My sister has Downs.  My mom has had to deal with her uncontrollable fits of temper and self-mutilation for 17 years.  My mom is a saint, and as Eastend says, you are a stoopidc**t.  I f**ing hate you.  I hate people who makes jokes about people with MR. If you knew the life my family has had having to deal with a child with downs you wouldn't make jokes.  I can't even speak I'm so freakin' appalled.  You're a cheap joke skank b**ch. 

[eastend]

Girl, chill the f*** out.  AA is educational welfare - do you really think that their going to give up their benefits without a fight?  They'll put forth more energy defending their entitlement to AA than they will for the LSAT. 

"They"?  LOL

Down Syndrome is nothing to laugh at. 

Why don't you just die, you stoopidcu**.  You're using Downs to make points.  What a fu**wit. 

I wasn't actually making a point.  I was just poking fun at you. 

Oh, but I should have added the disclaimer: Sincerest apologies to anyone whom I've offended, who might have loved ones who suffer from Downs Syndrome.  It's really not the sort of thing to joke about, and I regret my momentary lapse in judgment. 

Better? 

My sister has Downs.  My mom has had to deal with her uncontrollable fits of temper and self-mutilation for 17 years.  My mom is a saint, and as Eastend says, you are a stoopidc**t.  I f**ing hate you.  I hate people who makes jokes about people with MR. If you knew the life my family has had having to deal with a child with downs you wouldn't make jokes.  I can't even speak I'm so freakin' appalled.  You're a cheap joke skank b**ch. 

Woah, that stoopidc**t just deleted all her posts on this thread.  I'll be happy to remind of her of that fact in the future.  God, I just hate people like that, nothing to say, but she makes jokes about people with DS.

[OperaAttorney]

Girl, chill the f*** out.  AA is educational welfare - do you really think that their going to give up their benefits without a fight?  They'll put forth more energy defending their entitlement to AA than they will for the LSAT. 

"They"?  LOL

Down Syndrome is nothing to laugh at. 

Why don't you just die, you stoopidcu**.  You're using Downs to make points.  What a fu**wit. 

I find your immaturity and lack of true wit appalling. And your "mouth" is SO filthy!  I hope you're not like this in person.

[bluepeter]

Girl, chill the f*** out.  AA is educational welfare - do you really think that their going to give up their benefits without a fight?  They'll put forth more energy defending their entitlement to AA than they will for the LSAT. 

"They"?  LOL

Down Syndrome is nothing to laugh at. 

Why don't you just die, you stoopidcu**.  You're using Downs to make points.  What a fu**wit. 

I wasn't actually making a point.  I was just poking fun at you. 

Oh, but I should have added the disclaimer: Sincerest apologies to anyone whom I've offended, who might have loved ones who suffer from Downs Syndrome.  It's really not the sort of thing to joke about, and I regret my momentary lapse in judgment. 

Better? 

My sister has Downs.  My mom has had to deal with her uncontrollable fits of temper and self-mutilation for 17 years.  My mom is a saint, and as Eastend says, you are a stoopidc**t.  I f**ing hate you.  I hate people who makes jokes about people with MR. If you knew the life my family has had having to deal with a child with downs you wouldn't make jokes.  I can't even speak I'm so freakin' appalled.  You're a cheap joke skank b**ch. 

Woah, that stoopidc**t just deleted all her posts on this thread.  I'll be happy to remind of her of that fact in the future.  God, I just hate people like that, nothing to say, but she makes jokes about people with DS.

She's deleted herself completely.  Now if only all the other mouthy twits would follow suit.

[dashrashi]

Girl, chill the f*** out.  AA is educational welfare - do you really think that their going to give up their benefits without a fight?  They'll put forth more energy defending their entitlement to AA than they will for the LSAT. 

"They"?  LOL

Down Syndrome is nothing to laugh at. 

Why don't you just die, you stoopidcu**.  You're using Downs to make points.  What a fu**wit. 

I wasn't actually making a point.  I was just poking fun at you. 

Oh, but I should have added the disclaimer: Sincerest apologies to anyone whom I've offended, who might have loved ones who suffer from Downs Syndrome.  It's really not the sort of thing to joke about, and I regret my momentary lapse in judgment. 

Better? 

My sister has Downs.  My mom has had to deal with her uncontrollable fits of temper and self-mutilation for 17 years.  My mom is a saint, and as Eastend says, you are a stoopidc**t.  I f**ing hate you.  I hate people who makes jokes about people with MR. If you knew the life my family has had having to deal with a child with downs you wouldn't make jokes.  I can't even speak I'm so freakin' appalled.  You're a cheap joke skank b**ch. 

Woah, that stoopidc**t just deleted all her posts on this thread.  I'll be happy to remind of her of that fact in the future.  God, I just hate people like that, nothing to say, but she makes jokes about people with DS.

She's deleted herself completely.  Now if only all the other mouthy twits would follow suit.

Hint, hint. Hop to, son.

[Burning Sands, Esq.]

This thread was making some progress before the petty bickering took over. Hopefully we can return to that. I usually don't get into these AA debates because people approach with closed ears but I saw a few legitimately open minded questions and propositions advanced here that I wanted to weigh in on.

First of all, as an aside, "The smart minorities get it..." is just a tad bit insulting, and factually incorrect to boot. Support for the proposition underlying this disrespectful statement could more easily be garnered by simply rewording the title of this thread to reflect that some minorities agree with Class Based AA as opposed to Race Based AA - but to say that only the smart minorities are in agreement with class based AA is ridiculous.  I would urge blondngreen to rename the title of this thread if he/she is serious about encouraging an intellectual discourse about the topic.  A simple "Class Based AA" would suffice.  But moving on...


I agree with the legitimacy of the class based AA.  Rich kids (white or black) certainly don't need any more help getting into professional schools, and many legacies who fall into the upper middle to upper class will get admitted into schools that they didn't necessarily deserve with the assistance of their own form of affirmative action: by virtue of their legacy status. (although nobody seems to be pissed off about this for some strange reason)  But at the end of the day, if you were to take a pool of America and ask everybody do you think school admissions should be based on race or based on income, most people (both black and white) will say based on income.

Somebody asked a good question: what argument remains for the race based AA once we accept the legitimacy of class based AA?  Unfortunately there is one glaring argument that remains even for those of us who agree and support Class Based AA, which ties into what Opera Attorney pointed out - blacks, latinos, and other minorities are still, in 2007, discriminated against in employment and the professional setting and what's worse is that, despite 40 years worth of AA, minorities still exist only in very very very small numbers in the legal profession.  White males still continue to dominate the working worlds of biglaw and big-business long after we have all left the 3 or 4 year academic setting of law school, med school, etc.  In other words, when attempting to remedy past wrongs and level the playing fields with an AA program, too many of us who support class based AA focus on getting into school and stop there - as if that's the entire purpose of class based AA.  The issue being addressed by Class Based AA doesn't end by merely getting into law school, folks.

Even though I agree with the legitimacy of Class Based AA, I am less certain that we, as a nation, are in a position even in 2007 where we can completely swap out one for the other.  I would certainly like for us to be, but the fact of the matter is that we are not.  I am hopeful that we can be there someday.  Former Justice O'Connor estimated that day at being 25 years in the future.  Who knows.  But one thing is for certain, we're not there yet.  Replacing Race Based with Class Based now is premature.  Even Obama (one of the alleged "smart minorities" according to the blondngreen) is very clear on this topic when asked about the state of race in America - he says that he believes that America is ready to get past it's race problem, which is to say that it still has a problem that it needs to get past.

[Lindbergh]

The title of this thread is rather condescending.  I find it amusing actually, because it was probably unintentional yet it says a lot about the OP. 

Yep. It's very condescending.  She might as well call me a N****R!

You're right about it being unintentional.  BlondnGreen strikes me as....umm....young.

I've never used the 'n' word.  To me the connotations are horrible.  As always you try to divert my attention by calling me a racist.  You're a silly little man. 

Now you're trying to divert his attention by calling him short. 

Do you realize that there are negative connotations to calling people "smart minorities?"  How do you think one of the two men you mention would react if you went up them and said: "Mr. Such-and-such, I think you're a smart minority!  I'm glad that there are some smart minorities around!"  I mean really. 

You sound so angry and bitter.  Do you support AA because you're stupid?  Are you delusional?  Is it enlightened self-interest that drives you?  Are you acting in myopic selfishness? -  I jest -   The title was merely an attention getter.  It's deliberately misleading.  I know you can be smart and support race based AA, you just don't care about those severely disadvantaged whites.  We have a white president, etc, etc, so even though your Daddy was a coal miner and you grew up in the Appalachians, and you struggled, etc, etc, who cares?  Wait a minute, ignore the 'I jest' part.

Girl, chill the f*** out.  AA is educational welfare - do you really think that their going to give up their benefits without a fight?  They'll put forth more energy defending their entitlement to AA than they will for the LSAT. 

"They"?  LOL

??

[Lindbergh]

This thread was making some progress before the petty bickering took over. Hopefully we can return to that. I usually don't get into these AA debates because people approach with closed ears but I saw a few legitimately open minded questions and propositions advanced here that I wanted to weigh in on.

First of all, as an aside, "The smart minorities get it..." is just a tad bit insulting, and factually incorrect to boot. Support for the proposition underlying this disrespectful statement could more easily be garnered by simply rewording the title of this thread to reflect that some minorities agree with Class Based AA as opposed to Race Based AA - but to say that only the smart minorities are in agreement with class based AA is ridiculous.  I would urge blondngreen to rename the title of this thread if he/she is serious about encouraging an intellectual discourse about the topic.  A simple "Class Based AA" would suffice.  But moving on...

It's an assertion, or a statement of opinion.  Kind of like "AA is necessary."  We can debate the truth of both statements, but I personally agree with the idea (though I would change "smart" to "thoughtful.")

I agree with the legitimacy of the class based AA.  Rich kids (white or black) certainly don't need any more help getting into professional schools, and many legacies who fall into the upper middle to upper class will get admitted into schools that they didn't necessarily deserve with the assistance of their own form of affirmative action: by virtue of their legacy status. (although nobody seems to be pissed off about this for some strange reason)  But at the end of the day, if you were to take a pool of America and ask everybody do you think school admissions should be based on race or based on income, most people (both black and white) will say based on income.

Excellent post, although signficant legacy preference in law school appears extremely rare.  To the rare extent this occurs, I think it's considered less offensive because it's not a form of racial discrimination.

Somebody asked a good question: what argument remains for the race based AA once we accept the legitimacy of class based AA?  Unfortunately there is one glaring argument that remains even for those of us who agree and support Class Based AA, which ties into what Opera Attorney pointed out - blacks, latinos, and other minorities are still, in 2007, discriminated against in employment and the professional setting

How so?  We need more concrete evidence of this, especially since the evidence appears to indicate that minorities are actually favored in hiring these days.

and what's worse is that, despite 40 years worth of AA, minorities still exist only in very very very small numbers in the legal profession.  White males still continue to dominate the working worlds of biglaw and big-business long after we have all left the 3 or 4 year academic setting of law school, med school, etc. 

Now, this is indisputably true.  However, a differential in results doesn't necessarily mean the cause is discrimination.  For example, jews and asians have historically faced discrimination, but they are OVERrepresented in various professional fields.  Blacks are also overrepresented in sports and music -- again not necessarily the result of discrimination. 

In other words, when attempting to remedy past wrongs and level the playing fields with an AA program, too many of us who support class based AA focus on getting into school and stop there - as if that's the entire purpose of class based AA.  The issue being addressed by Class Based AA doesn't end by merely getting into law school, folks.

The problem, to me, is that this "issue" appears primarily cultural, not societal.  Jews predominate in law because of their cultural background and aspirations.  Hispanics are underrepresented because of a different cultural background.  The idea that we should favor certain cultures simply because they prepare their members less well seems questionable -- especially since this doesn't really motivate the culture to adapt and change.

Even though I agree with the legitimacy of Class Based AA, I am less certain that we, as a nation, are in a position even in 2007 where we can completely swap out one for the other.  I would certainly like for us to be, but the fact of the matter is that we are not.  I am hopeful that we can be there someday.  Former Justice O'Connor estimated that day at being 25 years in the future.  Who knows.  But one thing is for certain, we're not there yet.  Replacing Race Based with Class Based now is premature.  Even Obama (one of the alleged "smart minorities" according to the blondngreen) is very clear on this topic when asked about the state of race in America - he says that he believes that America is ready to get past it's race problem, which is to say that it still has a problem that it needs to get past.

Obama is certainly entitled to his opinion.  However, the real question, again, is why certain minorities struggle once educational opportunity it controlled for.  To me, again, the primary problem is cultural, and people like Obama himself are clear examples of the fact that there is no nebulous, impervious force preventing minorities from achieving academically -- it ultimately comes down to the individual, and, perhaps, his family outlook.  It is therefore unclear to me that creating different standards for minorities is the answer to this question. 

[dashrashi]

Did you know that the way you reply to people is supremely annoying?

Lighten up, Francis.

[Kirk Lazarus]

This thread was making some progress before the petty bickering took over. Hopefully we can return to that. I usually don't get into these AA debates because people approach with closed ears but I saw a few legitimately open minded questions and propositions advanced here that I wanted to weigh in on.

First of all, as an aside, "The smart minorities get it..." is just a tad bit insulting, and factually incorrect to boot. Support for the proposition underlying this disrespectful statement could more easily be garnered by simply rewording the title of this thread to reflect that some minorities agree with Class Based AA as opposed to Race Based AA - but to say that only the smart minorities are in agreement with class based AA is ridiculous.  I would urge blondngreen to rename the title of this thread if he/she is serious about encouraging an intellectual discourse about the topic.  A simple "Class Based AA" would suffice.  But moving on...

It's an assertion, or a statement of opinion.  Kind of like "AA is necessary."  We can debate the truth of both statements, but I personally agree with the idea (though I would change "smart" to "thoughtful.")

I agree with the legitimacy of the class based AA.  Rich kids (white or black) certainly don't need any more help getting into professional schools, and many legacies who fall into the upper middle to upper class will get admitted into schools that they didn't necessarily deserve with the assistance of their own form of affirmative action: by virtue of their legacy status. (although nobody seems to be pissed off about this for some strange reason)  But at the end of the day, if you were to take a pool of America and ask everybody do you think school admissions should be based on race or based on income, most people (both black and white) will say based on income.

Excellent post, although signficant legacy preference in law school appears extremely rare.  To the rare extent this occurs, I think it's considered less offensive because it's not a form of racial discrimination.

Somebody asked a good question: what argument remains for the race based AA once we accept the legitimacy of class based AA?  Unfortunately there is one glaring argument that remains even for those of us who agree and support Class Based AA, which ties into what Opera Attorney pointed out - blacks, latinos, and other minorities are still, in 2007, discriminated against in employment and the professional setting

How so?  We need more concrete evidence of this, especially since the evidence appears to indicate that minorities are actually favored in hiring these days.

and what's worse is that, despite 40 years worth of AA, minorities still exist only in very very very small numbers in the legal profession.  White males still continue to dominate the working worlds of biglaw and big-business long after we have all left the 3 or 4 year academic setting of law school, med school, etc.

Now, this is indisputably true.  However, a differential in results doesn't necessarily mean the cause is discrimination.  For example, jews and asians have historically faced discrimination, but they are OVERrepresented in various professional fields.  Blacks are also overrepresented in sports and music -- again not necessarily the result of discrimination. 

In other words, when attempting to remedy past wrongs and level the playing fields with an AA program, too many of us who support class based AA focus on getting into school and stop there - as if that's the entire purpose of class based AA.  The issue being addressed by Class Based AA doesn't end by merely getting into law school, folks.

The problem, to me, is that this "issue" appears primarily cultural, not societal.  Jews predominate in law because of their cultural background and aspirations.  Hispanics are underrepresented because of a different cultural background.  The idea that we should favor certain cultures simply because they prepare their members less well seems questionable -- especially since this doesn't really motivate the culture to adapt and change.

Even though I agree with the legitimacy of Class Based AA, I am less certain that we, as a nation, are in a position even in 2007 where we can completely swap out one for the other.  I would certainly like for us to be, but the fact of the matter is that we are not.  I am hopeful that we can be there someday.  Former Justice O'Connor estimated that day at being 25 years in the future.  Who knows.  But one thing is for certain, we're not there yet.  Replacing Race Based with Class Based now is premature.  Even Obama (one of the alleged "smart minorities" according to the blondngreen) is very clear on this topic when asked about the state of race in America - he says that he believes that America is ready to get past it's race problem, which is to say that it still has a problem that it needs to get past.

Obama is certainly entitled to his opinion.  However, the real question, again, is why certain minorities struggle once educational opportunity it controlled for.  To me, again, the primary problem is cultural, and people like Obama himself are clear examples of the fact that there is no nebulous, impervious force preventing minorities from achieving academically -- it ultimately comes down to the individual, and, perhaps, his family outlook.  It is therefore unclear to me that creating different standards for minorities is the answer to this question. 

I stopped reading at the bolded.