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Author Topic: [Some] minorities [agree]....Class based AA.  (Read 26204 times)

Lindbergh

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #170 on: September 14, 2007, 05:40:38 AM »

Well, again, the concern is that this particular preferences is per se a form of racial discrimination, which at least technically violates Equal Protection, unless you buy into the new version of "separate but equal" in terms of admissions standards.  (And urms, of course, are also eligible for legacy preferences.) 

However, I have no problem eliminating legacy admissions if that's what it takes to create more racial justice in admissions generally. 


The rest of your argument makes some good points, however I couldn't let this statement slide because it is legally incorrect. 

AA programs administered by the states are one of the few exceptions where state action involving race actually does not violate the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.  This is true largely because (putting aside our personal feelings for a second) race based AA, when used correctly, is a benign form of state action that is supposed to be used in a very narrowly tailored manner and designed to remedy past discrimination, which is a compelling government interest.  AA programs which pass this strict Constitutional scrutiny do not violate Equal Protection.

Well, equal protection generally means that the govt cannot discriminate on the basis of race.  This has been set aside in the past, like in Plessy, where the "separate but equal" standard was favored, allowing all kinds of discrimination.

Today, the court has ruled that AA is permissible, for various reasons.  However, whether or not this is truly benign, or simply a way to weasel around the EP clause, is ultimately a matter of personal opinion.

I'll give you that AA today is not technically a violation of EP, any more than segregation was in the 1940's, because the court has ruled otherwise, and the court interprets the constitution.  I should rather have said that AA as currently structured violates the EP clause on its face.  I hope we can also agree that the court's rulings have been questionable in past (Plessy), and it is hardly morally infallible even today.  Personally, I think segregation was always a violation of EP, regardless of Plessy, and I think AA today is as well, because it's not sufficiently narrowly tailored.  (If it were restricted to disadvantaged minorities (and whites), it probably would be.)

Lindbergh

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #171 on: September 14, 2007, 05:51:17 AM »


I agree with Obama, we need AA based on circumstance, not race.


I think you meant to say "not solely based on race," since AA based on circumstance would, of course, have to be inclusive of race because race can be a part of one's overall circumstances.


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I didn't misspeak.  AA based on circumstance wouldn't factor in race.  If it did, then Mr.Obama's kids would get some points for being black.  Racism exists, but how did that affect Obama's kids' education?  It didn't, correct?  No, being black or hispanic would be irrelevant, the only relevant thing would be your circumstances...Class based AA for want of a better term.


I submit that AA based on circumstances must consider ALL circumstances, including race, and apply those circumstances accordingly on a case by case basis.  In the case of Obama's kids for example, his children do not cease to be black merely because their father is Obama.  Nevertheless, in terms of admissions and considering ALL relevant circumstances, the circumstance of their race would be offset by the circumstance of their parent's affluence and/or legacy status, thus canceling each other out and forcing the ad com to look to other factors.  The children of other black parents applying to school may not be in such a great position as the Obama's.  That's why it's important to review ALL of the relevant circumstances on a case by case basis. 

I don't think we can adopt a system that always ignores or relies solely on race any more than we can adopt a system that always ignores or relies solely on economic class.  The two criteria are not necessarily mutually exclusive in my humble opinion.

I don't think we're that far apart here.  I don't have a problem with a school considering a person's ethnicity when it was clearly a factor for them growing up, when it gave them perspective, etc.  I do have a problem with the automatic assumption that someone is underprivileged/disadvantaged simply because they're from a certain ethnic group, or is inherently privileged/advantaged just because they're from another ethnic group.  The reality is far more complex than this, and that's what people should understand.  Otherwise, we're simply engaging in another (perhaps more well-intentioned) form of prejudice that understandably breeds resentment and therefore perpetuates discrimination in other areas.

Freak

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #172 on: September 14, 2007, 09:15:52 AM »
This doesn't surprise me.  White people love to find ways to convince themselves that they too are underprivileged while discounting their own advantages.  Freak, you've got a compelling story there, but as it has been pointed out, you do benefit from white privilege and from male privilege, which you seem to ignore.  Anyone can convince themselves that they've had it tough and some indeed have.  Ignoring your own privilege and denying the right of those who are disadvantaged to fight for equality is indefensible.  It's not hard to deny group membership and focus on what you think makes you unique (the ability to do so is frequently denied to minorities).

As I've said before:





Really? Actually, nobody has pointed it out to me in any specific way. Burning Sands shared his story and he overcame massive adversity. But from what I read (hint we read and write here not say or hear),  his adversity (that exceeded mine) stemmed from lack of decent parents and living near gangs. Whites also have those problems. I didn't so I'm privileged? I actually listed one instance where I was discriminated against because of my age - and I had proof. I would like to see somebody here honestly relate an instance where they discovered a white person receiving 2x what they personally received for the same work.
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Burning Sands, Esq.

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #173 on: September 14, 2007, 12:50:42 PM »
This doesn't surprise me.  White people love to find ways to convince themselves that they too are underprivileged while discounting their own advantages.  Freak, you've got a compelling story there, but as it has been pointed out, you do benefit from white privilege and from male privilege, which you seem to ignore.  Anyone can convince themselves that they've had it tough and some indeed have.  Ignoring your own privilege and denying the right of those who are disadvantaged to fight for equality is indefensible.  It's not hard to deny group membership and focus on what you think makes you unique (the ability to do so is frequently denied to minorities).

As I've said before:




TITCR

TINTCR

Hint: the person on the top in the first few panels is now dead.  So is the person on the bottom in the past few panels. 


Ah but to the contrary, the person on top and the person on bottom may have died, but their descendants have not.  Guess where the person on top's descendants are born?  You got it - on top.  And likewise for the person on the bottom.  But more importantly are the institutions that stemmed from this move off of the back of the person on bottom - it still is in existence today, but because the new person on top was born there (as you pointed out) they don't see any problem because they are not the ones who literally climbed up.

The state of affairs in America did not start with you or me.  This nation's problems have been going on before you or I were born of course. So it is no defense to say, I (subjectively speaking) have nothing to do with it because I was born up here and you were born down there.  We have to connect the dots to see the whole story when we're talking about policies that attempt to level the playing field.

In other words, the problem involves more than just our generation.

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OperaAttorney

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #174 on: September 14, 2007, 01:07:45 PM »
This doesn't surprise me.  White people love to find ways to convince themselves that they too are underprivileged while discounting their own advantages.  Freak, you've got a compelling story there, but as it has been pointed out, you do benefit from white privilege and from male privilege, which you seem to ignore.  Anyone can convince themselves that they've had it tough and some indeed have.  Ignoring your own privilege and denying the right of those who are disadvantaged to fight for equality is indefensible.  It's not hard to deny group membership and focus on what you think makes you unique (the ability to do so is frequently denied to minorities).

As I've said before:




TITCR

TINTCR

Hint: the person on the top in the first few panels is now dead.  So is the person on the bottom in the past few panels. 


Ah but to the contrary, the person on top and the person on bottom may have died, but their descendants have not.  Guess where the person on top's descendants are born?  You got it - on top.  And likewise for the person on the bottom.  But more importantly are the institutions that stemmed from this move off of the back of the person on bottom - it still is in existence today, but because the new person on top was born there (as you pointed out) they don't see any problem because they are not the ones who literally climbed up.

The state of affairs in America did not start with you or me.  This nation's problems have been going on before you or I were born of course. So it is no defense to say, I (subjectively speaking) have nothing to do with it because I was born up here and you were born down there.  We have to connect the dots to see the whole story when we're talking about policies that attempt to level the playing field.

In other words, the problem involves more than just our generation.



I wouldn't waste my time with Lindbergh. It's so not worth it.
"I don't believe in the word 'impossible,' because the One in whom I believe can do the impossible." - Me

Freak

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #175 on: September 14, 2007, 01:26:31 PM »
This doesn't surprise me.  White people love to find ways to convince themselves that they too are underprivileged while discounting their own advantages.  Freak, you've got a compelling story there, but as it has been pointed out, you do benefit from white privilege and from male privilege, which you seem to ignore.  Anyone can convince themselves that they've had it tough and some indeed have.  Ignoring your own privilege and denying the right of those who are disadvantaged to fight for equality is indefensible.  It's not hard to deny group membership and focus on what you think makes you unique (the ability to do so is frequently denied to minorities).

As I've said before:




TITCR

TINTCR

Hint: the person on the top in the first few panels is now dead.  So is the person on the bottom in the past few panels. 


Ah but to the contrary, the person on top and the person on bottom may have died, but their descendants have not.  Guess where the person on top's descendants are born?  You got it - on top.  And likewise for the person on the bottom.  But more importantly are the institutions that stemmed from this move off of the back of the person on bottom - it still is in existence today, but because the new person on top was born there (as you pointed out) they don't see any problem because they are not the ones who literally climbed up.

The state of affairs in America did not start with you or me.  This nation's problems have been going on before you or I were born of course. So it is no defense to say, I (subjectively speaking) have nothing to do with it because I was born up here and you were born down there.  We have to connect the dots to see the whole story when we're talking about policies that attempt to level the playing field.

In other words, the problem involves more than just our generation.


Applying that logic, everybody from a 3rd world former colony deserves immigration rights, yes? Further, by that logic, criminals' children should pay for the incarceration of their parents. Actually, that idea makes more sense than having a great-great-grandchild pay for his ancestors' malfeasance. Especially when nobody has proven that that particular grandchild's ancestors did stand on slave shoulders (I've never even seen proof that slavery benefited whites as a whole & given the civil war I don't think it did). Additionally, I know no blacks who like being stereotyped, why stereotype all whites?

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OperaAttorney

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #176 on: September 14, 2007, 01:34:27 PM »


I agree with Obama, we need AA based on circumstance, not race.


I think you meant to say "not solely based on race," since AA based on circumstance would, of course, have to be inclusive of race because race can be a part of one's overall circumstances.


You know for a Kappa you are not so bad.
06


Thank you my Black and Gold brother from another mother. Not to shabby yourself....for an Alpha.  ;D



I didn't misspeak.  AA based on circumstance wouldn't factor in race.  If it did, then Mr.Obama's kids would get some points for being black.  Racism exists, but how did that affect Obama's kids' education?  It didn't, correct?  No, being black or hispanic would be irrelevant, the only relevant thing would be your circumstances...Class based AA for want of a better term.


I submit that AA based on circumstances must consider ALL circumstances, including race, and apply those circumstances accordingly on a case by case basis.  In the case of Obama's kids for example, his children do not cease to be black merely because their father is Obama.  Nevertheless, in terms of admissions and considering ALL relevant circumstances, the circumstance of their race would be offset by the circumstance of their parent's affluence and/or legacy status, thus canceling each other out and forcing the ad com to look to other factors.  The children of other black parents applying to school may not be in such a great position as the Obama's.  That's why it's important to review ALL of the relevant circumstances on a case by case basis. 

I don't think we can adopt a system that always ignores or relies solely on race any more than we can adopt a system that always ignores or relies solely on economic class.  The two criteria are not necessarily mutually exclusive in my humble opinion.

I don't think we're that far apart here.  I don't have a problem with a school considering a person's ethnicity when it was clearly a factor for them growing up, when it gave them perspective, etc.  I do have a problem with the automatic assumption that someone is underprivileged/disadvantaged simply because they're from a certain ethnic group, or is inherently privileged/advantaged just because they're from another ethnic group.  The reality is far more complex than this, and that's what people should understand.  Otherwise, we're simply engaging in another (perhaps more well-intentioned) form of prejudice that understandably breeds resentment and therefore perpetuates discrimination in other areas.

Look at what I just found: http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/minorities_give_props_to_are_p.php


I find the responses to this offensive incident disappointing. Prejudice and bigotry are alive and well in our nation's law schools and law firms.
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Freak

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #177 on: September 14, 2007, 01:40:28 PM »
Pretty disgusting, but he only acted in his own self-interest. You expect more? I see it all the time. That however, is not discrimination, it's an indirect result of AA.
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OperaAttorney

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #178 on: September 14, 2007, 02:02:10 PM »
Pretty disgusting, but he only acted in his own self-interest. You expect more? I see it all the time. That however, is not discrimination, it's an indirect result of AA.

I'm not surprised at your interpretation of the incident.  In my experience, many whites fail to see the prejudice inherent in such situations.  ("Stop your whining. It's not prejudice.  He's just socially inept.  He's eager to go home and really means no harm." Not!!)

I would have arrived at the same conclusion as Katie Fernandez, but my reaction would have been different--I would not have taken the picture.  I would excused myself promptly, leaving the silly firm associate with one less black face for his deceptive diversity photo.
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Freak

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #179 on: September 14, 2007, 02:32:11 PM »
And you would've been right to leave. When the factory I worked for discriminated against me, I gave my two weeks notice and left. The employee they had hired for 2x what they paid me left also, b/c she thought I had been treated unfairly. They offered me a huge raise to return a month later, but I declined.

And I see no prejudice as you note. I do think he did harm, whether he meant to or not. Frankly, he probably didn't care. Socially inept? I doubt it, he just has the big law mentality of walking over people to get ahead. He essentially communicated that those students didn't matter so why listen to them? I'll bet he knows how to schmooze with the big wigs just fine.
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