Law School Discussion

[Some] minorities [agree]....Class based AA.

OperaAttorney

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #120 on: September 13, 2007, 03:09:48 PM »
Ok, you tell me which of you began working for $2/hr at age ll, saved enough to pay for your first car and all its expenses by 15 and worked every summer thereafter. From factories to wharehouses, to telemarketing, to corn fields with illegal immigrants - I've done it. I quite a job when I discovered that an adult, I'd trained was paid 2x what they paid me for the same position, with two years experience.

When I got in trouble with the law, I paid thousands of dollars in fines, showed up for every probation appointment and never repeated my mistake. I paid private college tuition w/o loans. I've been attacked in the street by thugs. Privileged? The only privilege I've ever had is two loving parents. But they had little money while I grew-up, I still remember shopping at the second hand store for school clothes. I didn't have a pair of name brand tennis shoes till I turned 14.

And if you read my posts, you'd see that I have at least 5 URM friends - very good friends.

Hopefully, you'll are no longer sheltered.

Although it raises an eyebrow to see that one counts (or can count) their minority friends on one hand, this is a great personal testimony of overcoming adversity in America.

Are you offering it to compare to the adversity overcome by minority students or to show that you, personally, do not feel privileged?


Well since I grew up in predominantly white towns, it should raise no eyebrows. Further, I only counted close friends. I have about 20-25 total friends I consider close. That's b/t 20-25% percent minority friends & given the overall minority population...

And yes, I personally do not feel privileged. Now if you'll would like to share your stories, maybe I would feel differently.

Well, I think the issue here is differentiating between types of privilege. For instance, in my opinion, you are definitely not privileged in the socioeconomic sense.  However, you still enjoy "white privilege" by virtue of your skin color..especially in the U.S. Now I've met many whites who deny the existence of white privilege in this country. (I find such a position ludicrous, but perhaps I'm a bit biased ;)).  If you reason this way, then we can just agree to disagree. :)

Burning Sands, Esq.

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #121 on: September 13, 2007, 03:14:29 PM »
Ok, you tell me which of you began working for $2/hr at age ll, saved enough to pay for your first car and all its expenses by 15 and worked every summer thereafter. From factories to wharehouses, to telemarketing, to corn fields with illegal immigrants - I've done it. I quite a job when I discovered that an adult, I'd trained was paid 2x what they paid me for the same position, with two years experience.

When I got in trouble with the law, I paid thousands of dollars in fines, showed up for every probation appointment and never repeated my mistake. I paid private college tuition w/o loans. I've been attacked in the street by thugs. Privileged? The only privilege I've ever had is two loving parents. But they had little money while I grew-up, I still remember shopping at the second hand store for school clothes. I didn't have a pair of name brand tennis shoes till I turned 14.

And if you read my posts, you'd see that I have at least 5 URM friends - very good friends.

Hopefully, you'll are no longer sheltered.

Although it raises an eyebrow to see that one counts (or can count) their minority friends on one hand, this is a great personal testimony of overcoming adversity in America.

Are you offering it to compare to the adversity overcome by minority students or to show that you, personally, do not feel privileged?


Well since I grew up in predominantly white towns, it should raise no eyebrows. Further, I only counted close friends. I have about 20-25 total friends I consider close. That's b/t 20-25% percent minority friends & given the overall minority population...

And yes, I personally do not feel privileged. Now if you'll would like to share your stories, maybe I would feel differently.


long story short, grew up in the ghetto, basically raised self and brothers and sisters, approached by gangs but declined - as a result got shot twice when I was 14 and 15, dropped out of high school at 16 to work in order to support the family, was talked into going back to school by my close HS friends who I'm still close with to this day, family couldn't afford college, got a job, got another job, paid my way through it sometimes working 2 jobs while going to class - as a result took 6 years to complete undergrad (engineering), worked as an engineer for a while, helped the family out financially, decided to finally go to law school, buckled down, got in, struggled through it financially (no private loans), made Law Review, graduated, took the bar, starting for Biglaw in NYC next month.


Wow, I didn't think I'd be able to compress that down to a paragraph but there it is.  Comparable, yes?



Freak

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #122 on: September 13, 2007, 05:35:30 PM »
Ok, you tell me which of you began working for $2/hr at age ll, saved enough to pay for your first car and all its expenses by 15 and worked every summer thereafter. From factories to wharehouses, to telemarketing, to corn fields with illegal immigrants - I've done it. I quite a job when I discovered that an adult, I'd trained was paid 2x what they paid me for the same position, with two years experience.

When I got in trouble with the law, I paid thousands of dollars in fines, showed up for every probation appointment and never repeated my mistake. I paid private college tuition w/o loans. I've been attacked in the street by thugs. Privileged? The only privilege I've ever had is two loving parents. But they had little money while I grew-up, I still remember shopping at the second hand store for school clothes. I didn't have a pair of name brand tennis shoes till I turned 14.

And if you read my posts, you'd see that I have at least 5 URM friends - very good friends.

Hopefully, you'll are no longer sheltered.

Although it raises an eyebrow to see that one counts (or can count) their minority friends on one hand, this is a great personal testimony of overcoming adversity in America.

Are you offering it to compare to the adversity overcome by minority students or to show that you, personally, do not feel privileged?


Well since I grew up in predominantly white towns, it should raise no eyebrows. Further, I only counted close friends. I have about 20-25 total friends I consider close. That's b/t 20-25% percent minority friends & given the overall minority population...

And yes, I personally do not feel privileged. Now if you'll would like to share your stories, maybe I would feel differently.

Well, I think the issue here is differentiating between types of privilege. For instance, in my opinion, you are definitely not privileged in the socioeconomic sense.  However, you are still enjoy "white privilege" by virtue of your skin color..especially in the U.S. Now I've met many whites who deny the existence of white privilege in this country. (I find such a position ludicrous, but perhaps I'm a bit biased ;)).  If you reason this way, then we can just agree to disagree. :)

We have both bias, everybody has it, such is life. To your point, I agree white privilege exists, I just don't benefit from it. I've never competed for a position against a minority to my knowledge. For most of my 20 odd positions, I had no competition because either A - everybody was hired who applied or B. I alone applied.    So I don't believe I should pay to remedy it. i.e. I believe we should apply remedies individually.

OperaAttorney

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #123 on: September 13, 2007, 05:46:59 PM »
Ok, you tell me which of you began working for $2/hr at age ll, saved enough to pay for your first car and all its expenses by 15 and worked every summer thereafter. From factories to wharehouses, to telemarketing, to corn fields with illegal immigrants - I've done it. I quite a job when I discovered that an adult, I'd trained was paid 2x what they paid me for the same position, with two years experience.

When I got in trouble with the law, I paid thousands of dollars in fines, showed up for every probation appointment and never repeated my mistake. I paid private college tuition w/o loans. I've been attacked in the street by thugs. Privileged? The only privilege I've ever had is two loving parents. But they had little money while I grew-up, I still remember shopping at the second hand store for school clothes. I didn't have a pair of name brand tennis shoes till I turned 14.

And if you read my posts, you'd see that I have at least 5 URM friends - very good friends.

Hopefully, you'll are no longer sheltered.

Although it raises an eyebrow to see that one counts (or can count) their minority friends on one hand, this is a great personal testimony of overcoming adversity in America.

Are you offering it to compare to the adversity overcome by minority students or to show that you, personally, do not feel privileged?


Well since I grew up in predominantly white towns, it should raise no eyebrows. Further, I only counted close friends. I have about 20-25 total friends I consider close. That's b/t 20-25% percent minority friends & given the overall minority population...

And yes, I personally do not feel privileged. Now if you'll would like to share your stories, maybe I would feel differently.

Well, I think the issue here is differentiating between types of privilege. For instance, in my opinion, you are definitely not privileged in the socioeconomic sense.  However, you are still enjoy "white privilege" by virtue of your skin color..especially in the U.S. Now I've met many whites who deny the existence of white privilege in this country. (I find such a position ludicrous, but perhaps I'm a bit biased ;)).  If you reason this way, then we can just agree to disagree. :)

We have both bias, everybody has it, such is life. To your point, I agree white privilege exists, I just don't benefit from it. I've never competed for a position against a minority to my knowledge. For most of my 20 odd positions, I had no competition because either A - everybody was hired who applied or B. I alone applied.    So I don't believe I should pay to remedy it. i.e. I believe we should apply remedies individually.
No....but OK.

Freak

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #124 on: September 13, 2007, 05:48:12 PM »
Ok, you tell me which of you began working for $2/hr at age ll, saved enough to pay for your first car and all its expenses by 15 and worked every summer thereafter. From factories to wharehouses, to telemarketing, to corn fields with illegal immigrants - I've done it. I quite a job when I discovered that an adult, I'd trained was paid 2x what they paid me for the same position, with two years experience.

When I got in trouble with the law, I paid thousands of dollars in fines, showed up for every probation appointment and never repeated my mistake. I paid private college tuition w/o loans. I've been attacked in the street by thugs. Privileged? The only privilege I've ever had is two loving parents. But they had little money while I grew-up, I still remember shopping at the second hand store for school clothes. I didn't have a pair of name brand tennis shoes till I turned 14.

And if you read my posts, you'd see that I have at least 5 URM friends - very good friends.

Hopefully, you'll are no longer sheltered.

Although it raises an eyebrow to see that one counts (or can count) their minority friends on one hand, this is a great personal testimony of overcoming adversity in America.

Are you offering it to compare to the adversity overcome by minority students or to show that you, personally, do not feel privileged?


Well since I grew up in predominantly white towns, it should raise no eyebrows. Further, I only counted close friends. I have about 20-25 total friends I consider close. That's b/t 20-25% percent minority friends & given the overall minority population...

And yes, I personally do not feel privileged. Now if you'll would like to share your stories, maybe I would feel differently.


long story short, grew up in the ghetto, basically raised self and brothers and sisters, approached by gangs but declined - as a result got shot twice when I was 14 and 15, dropped out of high school at 16 to work in order to support the family, was talked into going back to school by my close HS friends who I'm still close with to this day, family couldn't afford college, got a job, got another job, paid my way through it sometimes working 2 jobs while going to class - as a result took 6 years to complete undergrad (engineering), worked as an engineer for a while, helped the family out financially, decided to finally go to law school, buckled down, got in, struggled through it financially (no private loans), made Law Review, graduated, took the bar, starting for Biglaw in NYC next month.


Wow, I didn't think I'd be able to compress that down to a paragraph but there it is.  Comparable, yes?

Yes, except I have two excellent parents (Today's their 32 anniversary) and dealt very little with gangs - they simply did not exist in the schools where I grew up. I receive my BAR results next month, but started work 8/20. I never pursued Big Law, I did get the first position I interviewed for. (small firm I never even sent a big firm a resume - no offense, but yuck). I'm now 10min from work and my folks.

Perhaps a boost for children raised without one or both parents would provide a better way to determine who should receive preference. In that sense, I do see a privilege - sad that I consider having two dedicated parents a privilege.

One question, why did the gangs shoot you for declining? The closet I ever came was when my baby brother tried to shoot me. Fortunately he didn't know how to load the gun nor the ammo's location.

H4CS

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #125 on: September 13, 2007, 07:51:35 PM »
This doesn't surprise me.  White people love to find ways to convince themselves that they too are underprivileged while discounting their own advantages.  Freak, you've got a compelling story there, but as it has been pointed out, you do benefit from white privilege and from male privilege, which you seem to ignore.  Anyone can convince themselves that they've had it tough and some indeed have.  Ignoring your own privilege and denying the right of those who are disadvantaged to fight for equality is indefensible.  It's not hard to deny group membership and focus on what you think makes you unique (the ability to do so is frequently denied to minorities).

As I've said before:



OperaAttorney

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #126 on: September 13, 2007, 08:49:01 PM »
This doesn't surprise me.  White people love to find ways to convince themselves that they too are underprivileged while discounting their own advantages.  Freak, you've got a compelling story there, but as it has been pointed out, you do benefit from white privilege and from male privilege, which you seem to ignore.  Anyone can convince themselves that they've had it tough and some indeed have.  Ignoring your own privilege and denying the right of those who are disadvantaged to fight for equality is indefensible.  It's not hard to deny group membership and focus on what you think makes you unique (the ability to do so is frequently denied to minorities).

As I've said before:




TITCR

Freak

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #127 on: September 14, 2007, 07:15:52 AM »
This doesn't surprise me.  White people love to find ways to convince themselves that they too are underprivileged while discounting their own advantages.  Freak, you've got a compelling story there, but as it has been pointed out, you do benefit from white privilege and from male privilege, which you seem to ignore.  Anyone can convince themselves that they've had it tough and some indeed have.  Ignoring your own privilege and denying the right of those who are disadvantaged to fight for equality is indefensible.  It's not hard to deny group membership and focus on what you think makes you unique (the ability to do so is frequently denied to minorities).

As I've said before:





Really? Actually, nobody has pointed it out to me in any specific way. Burning Sands shared his story and he overcame massive adversity. But from what I read (hint we read and write here not say or hear),  his adversity (that exceeded mine) stemmed from lack of decent parents and living near gangs. Whites also have those problems. I didn't so I'm privileged? I actually listed one instance where I was discriminated against because of my age - and I had proof. I would like to see somebody here honestly relate an instance where they discovered a white person receiving 2x what they personally received for the same work.

Burning Sands, Esq.

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #128 on: September 14, 2007, 10:50:42 AM »
This doesn't surprise me.  White people love to find ways to convince themselves that they too are underprivileged while discounting their own advantages.  Freak, you've got a compelling story there, but as it has been pointed out, you do benefit from white privilege and from male privilege, which you seem to ignore.  Anyone can convince themselves that they've had it tough and some indeed have.  Ignoring your own privilege and denying the right of those who are disadvantaged to fight for equality is indefensible.  It's not hard to deny group membership and focus on what you think makes you unique (the ability to do so is frequently denied to minorities).

As I've said before:




TITCR

TINTCR

Hint: the person on the top in the first few panels is now dead.  So is the person on the bottom in the past few panels. 


Ah but to the contrary, the person on top and the person on bottom may have died, but their descendants have not.  Guess where the person on top's descendants are born?  You got it - on top.  And likewise for the person on the bottom.  But more importantly are the institutions that stemmed from this move off of the back of the person on bottom - it still is in existence today, but because the new person on top was born there (as you pointed out) they don't see any problem because they are not the ones who literally climbed up.

The state of affairs in America did not start with you or me.  This nation's problems have been going on before you or I were born of course. So it is no defense to say, I (subjectively speaking) have nothing to do with it because I was born up here and you were born down there.  We have to connect the dots to see the whole story when we're talking about policies that attempt to level the playing field.

In other words, the problem involves more than just our generation.


OperaAttorney

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Re: The smart minorities get it....Class based AA.
« Reply #129 on: September 14, 2007, 11:07:45 AM »
This doesn't surprise me.  White people love to find ways to convince themselves that they too are underprivileged while discounting their own advantages.  Freak, you've got a compelling story there, but as it has been pointed out, you do benefit from white privilege and from male privilege, which you seem to ignore.  Anyone can convince themselves that they've had it tough and some indeed have.  Ignoring your own privilege and denying the right of those who are disadvantaged to fight for equality is indefensible.  It's not hard to deny group membership and focus on what you think makes you unique (the ability to do so is frequently denied to minorities).

As I've said before:




TITCR

TINTCR

Hint: the person on the top in the first few panels is now dead.  So is the person on the bottom in the past few panels. 


Ah but to the contrary, the person on top and the person on bottom may have died, but their descendants have not.  Guess where the person on top's descendants are born?  You got it - on top.  And likewise for the person on the bottom.  But more importantly are the institutions that stemmed from this move off of the back of the person on bottom - it still is in existence today, but because the new person on top was born there (as you pointed out) they don't see any problem because they are not the ones who literally climbed up.

The state of affairs in America did not start with you or me.  This nation's problems have been going on before you or I were born of course. So it is no defense to say, I (subjectively speaking) have nothing to do with it because I was born up here and you were born down there.  We have to connect the dots to see the whole story when we're talking about policies that attempt to level the playing field.

In other words, the problem involves more than just our generation.



I wouldn't waste my time with Lindbergh. It's so not worth it.