Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: T25 vs. top 10% in T26 - 50  (Read 2587 times)

donwario

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: T25 vs. top 10% in T26 - 50
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2007, 01:05:11 PM »
i'm not sure where people get these "top 10%" of the class figures.  i haven't seen any actual data to support this.  never mind that the national reach of schools outside of HYSCCN really depends...in other words they are not truly national schools. 
i've seen some anecdotal evidence of people coming out of schools like WUSTL in the top 30% landing BIGLAW gigs.  what about people going into IP, certainly saying that they need to graduate in the to 10% of their class from a school like, UMN, seems a little high.  What about ND, a school ranked at the bottom of the top third ? they have pretty impressive placement, especially in the coasts.  do you think that a student at WI needs to graduate in the top 10% of his class to land a job at Foley and Lardner in Milwaukee (vault 100, certainly BIGLAW)? 
if i were the OP i would take this advice with a grain of salt until the poster provides some data to support these "top 10%" claims for schools who are solidly tier one and have a solid regional presence.

You need to work on your writing

Lindbergh

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4358
    • View Profile
Re: T25 vs. top 10% in T26 - 50
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2007, 01:33:45 PM »
i'm not sure where people get these "top 10%" of the class figures.  i haven't seen any actual data to support this.  never mind that the national reach of schools outside of HYSCCN really depends...in other words they are not truly national schools. 

Both Michigan and Virginia are more national than NYU, which has only recently become a truly national school.  Even schools like Northwestern have become far more national in recent years. 



i've seen some anecdotal evidence of people coming out of schools like WUSTL in the top 30% landing BIGLAW gigs.  what about people going into IP, certainly saying that they need to graduate in the to 10% of their class from a school like, UMN, seems a little high.  What about ND, a school ranked at the bottom of the top third ? they have pretty impressive placement, especially in the coasts.  do you think that a student at WI needs to graduate in the top 10% of his class to land a job at Foley and Lardner in Milwaukee (vault 100, certainly BIGLAW)? 
if i were the OP i would take this advice with a grain of salt until the poster provides some data to support these "top 10%" claims for schools who are solidly tier one and have a solid regional presence.


The OP's not just asking about biglaw, he's asking about national placement. 

I'd take all the above poster's statements with a grain of salt. 

Lindbergh

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4358
    • View Profile
Re: T25 vs. top 10% in T26 - 50
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2007, 01:51:03 PM »
It was suggested to me that if one cannot earn admission to a top 25 law school, the next best thing is to graduate in the top 10% of a school ranked 26 - 50. I am speaking of career prospects in a major urban center here. Does this make sense? Of course, I think this discussion will have to exclude the very elite schools. I'm not going to suggest that the top of the American University class will be viewed by hiring partners the same way as a Yale graduate.

The reason why I discuss this is that I am very seriously considering the University of Florida. I believe that I am a very good candidate for admission and the in-state tuition is ridiculous. I liked the area and the campus when I visited there. Plus, I really do like living in Florida. I do not, however, want to completely eliminate the prospect of employment in the Northeast, or possibly Chicago. I am not being so presumptuous as to guarantee my placement in the top 10% should I be given the opportunity to attend UF, but I am haunted by the thought that I will forever lose my freedom to choose to live elsewhere. Thank you for any feedback you can provide.


I would say that if you can't get into a T14 (which generally do offer at least some national prospects, regardless of class rank, especially at the traditional top 8 ), then the next best thing is to do well at any top-tier school.  If you're at the top of your class at any respected program (e.g., UF), you should have a shot at good jobs in other major cities.  A law review editor at UF will certainly have far more national opportunties than an average T25 students, and will probably place comparably to (or better than) an average T14 student. 

Placement at top-tier schools basically reflects a sliding scale between two key factors: Reputation and Class Rank.  The better your school's reputation, the worse you can do and still get good jobs.  The worse your school's reputation, the better you need to do to get good jobs.  However, at least within the top tier (or so), as long as you do well, you can still get good jobs, even in other cities.  You may just have to be more self-sufficient in your job search, as fewer outside firms will do OCI.

Note:  While firms may not view a top AU student the same as a Yale student, they may in fact get the same jobs, at least in D.C.  I know I'd personally prefer a top AU student over a Yale student if I were hiring.  The Yale student may have a strong academic background, a good LSAT score, and an interesting personal history, but he could also be a complete slacker when it comes to law school (and the law generally).  Lots of goofy philosophical types make their way into Yale, and then don't do much, and the grading system facilitates this. 

The only rub, of course, is that you can't guarantee your class-rank in advance.  However, if you can't get into a more national program, you can't.  But given that you like Florida, it makes sense to start there, as worst-case scenario you'll end up (starting out) somewhere you like, with limited debt.

SWATJester

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 71
  • http://wikilaw.blogspot.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - TacSimSWATJester
    • View Profile
    • May It Please The Court -- A guide for 1L's and aspiring law students.
    • Email
Re: T25 vs. top 10% in T26 - 50
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2007, 06:54:34 PM »
@ the guy who said FSU is academically light-years beyond UF?

I'm guessing you've never attended either one. UF > FSU in US News ranking. UF > FSU by lightyears in Tax law. UF > FSU significantly in environmental law. UF Law library > FSU law library by appx. 20% or more, including a vastly superior rare book room. FSU = only 25% of matriculated students in 2007 had an LSAT over 162.

Lets not even get into how abysmal the FSU faculty senate system, student government association, and administration staff are. UF, on the other hand, has one of the most pleasant and efficient staff that I've ever worked with.

UF's alumni network s outstanding across the nation. FSU's is moderate, and second best even in the south.

As an FSU alum, I could never recommend that school to anyone.
Are you a 1L or aspiring law student? You need to read this!
http://wikilaw.blogspot.com
A guide for 1L's and law students-to-be written by a 1L at American University Washington College of Law.

donwario

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: T25 vs. top 10% in T26 - 50
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2007, 07:26:56 PM »
@ the guy who said FSU is academically light-years beyond UF?

I'm guessing you've never attended either one. UF > FSU in US News ranking. UF > FSU by lightyears in Tax law. UF > FSU significantly in environmental law. UF Law library > FSU law library by appx. 20% or more, including a vastly superior rare book room. FSU = only 25% of matriculated students in 2007 had an LSAT over 162.

Lets not even get into how abysmal the FSU faculty senate system, student government association, and administration staff are. UF, on the other hand, has one of the most pleasant and efficient staff that I've ever worked with.

UF's alumni network s outstanding across the nation. FSU's is moderate, and second best even in the south.

As an FSU alum, I could never recommend that school to anyone.


I think you misread his/her post. He never said FSU is academically light-years beyond UF. He actually wrote that UF is light years better than FSU for undergrad.

I think his point, which he supported with convincing data, was that FSU looks to be academically superior as a law school to UF (your anecdotal experiences with the pleasant staff at UF notwithstanding).

darkside

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: T25 vs. top 10% in T26 - 50
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2007, 09:34:40 PM »
To the UF, FSU rebuttal: What does interactions with the adminsistration really have to do with it?  As long as FSU gets the jobt done, which I assume they do, who cares?  At the end of the day FSU is a better law school.  Case closed.


But I, too, have a question (somewhat related).  For schools such as Penn, who doesn't rank students, what is the deal?  They still give out grades.  Do employers just not care?  Or do they themselves estimate your given rank soley based on what your grades are?


Somewhere

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
    • View Profile
Re: T25 vs. top 10% in T26 - 50
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2007, 09:49:08 PM »
To the UF, FSU rebuttal: What does interactions with the adminsistration really have to do with it?  As long as FSU gets the jobt done, which I assume they do, who cares?  At the end of the day FSU is a better law school.  Case closed.


But I, too, have a question (somewhat related).  For schools such as Penn, who doesn't rank students, what is the deal?  They still give out grades.  Do employers just not care?  Or do they themselves estimate your given rank soley based on what your grades are?


Employers have the rough break down of grades and the corresponding percentiles. The real advantage is that top law schools do not allow pre-screening.

SWATJester

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 71
  • http://wikilaw.blogspot.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - TacSimSWATJester
    • View Profile
    • May It Please The Court -- A guide for 1L's and aspiring law students.
    • Email
Re: T25 vs. top 10% in T26 - 50
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2007, 10:58:49 PM »
To the UF, FSU rebuttal: What does interactions with the adminsistration really have to do with it?  As long as FSU gets the jobt done, which I assume they do, who cares?  At the end of the day FSU is a better law school.  Case closed.


But I, too, have a question (somewhat related).  For schools such as Penn, who doesn't rank students, what is the deal?  They still give out grades.  Do employers just not care?  Or do they themselves estimate your given rank soley based on what your grades are?



Uh....no. FSU is decidedly not a better law school, case not closed.

As for what interactions with the administration have to do with it? When you need career services, you have to interact with the administration. When you register, you need the administration. When you get financial aid, you need the administration. When you attend seminars, you deal with the administration. The fact is, you have an extensive amount of contact with the administrative staff in law school, significantly more than you do in undergrad. In undergrad, with the exception of my VA certification paperwork, I went to the university center (where the admin offices are) twice between 2001 and 2007. Once to pay a ticket and pick up my graduation tickets, and once to petition for readmission when I was disenrolled after spending 3 semesters in Iraq.
Are you a 1L or aspiring law student? You need to read this!
http://wikilaw.blogspot.com
A guide for 1L's and law students-to-be written by a 1L at American University Washington College of Law.

SWATJester

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 71
  • http://wikilaw.blogspot.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - TacSimSWATJester
    • View Profile
    • May It Please The Court -- A guide for 1L's and aspiring law students.
    • Email
Re: T25 vs. top 10% in T26 - 50
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2007, 02:02:22 AM »
To the UF, FSU rebuttal: What does interactions with the adminsistration really have to do with it?  As long as FSU gets the jobt done, which I assume they do, who cares?  At the end of the day FSU is a better law school.  Case closed.


But I, too, have a question (somewhat related).  For schools such as Penn, who doesn't rank students, what is the deal?  They still give out grades.  Do employers just not care?  Or do they themselves estimate your given rank soley based on what your grades are?



Uh....no. FSU is decidedly not a better law school, case not closed.

As for what interactions with the administration have to do with it? When you need career services, you have to interact with the administration. When you register, you need the administration. When you get financial aid, you need the administration. When you attend seminars, you deal with the administration. The fact is, you have an extensive amount of contact with the administrative staff in law school, significantly more than you do in undergrad. In undergrad, with the exception of my VA certification paperwork, I went to the university center (where the admin offices are) twice between 2001 and 2007. Once to pay a ticket and pick up my graduation tickets, and once to petition for readmission when I was disenrolled after spending 3 semesters in Iraq.

If you attend UF or FSU's law school how would you know what the administrations are like?

Well considering that you deal with them every day, from the undergrad, through the admissions process. Or if you're referring to me specifically, I went to FSU, and I have a family member that is a visiting lecturer at UF law.
Are you a 1L or aspiring law student? You need to read this!
http://wikilaw.blogspot.com
A guide for 1L's and law students-to-be written by a 1L at American University Washington College of Law.

darkside

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: T25 vs. top 10% in T26 - 50
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2007, 03:24:41 AM »
SWAT, it's obvious that you have a vested interest in promoting UF's law school- perhaps that is because that is where you are going.  It doesn't matter to me.  The issue is UF vs FSU, and FSU is decicively ranked higher than UF, so you might as well accept this fact and realize that the fact that UF's admin gives out free lollipops in the waiting room does little to boost its standing in the "real world."