No more AA at Michigan Law?

[Lindbergh]

How privileged do privileged minorities feel?  I guess not privileged enough.   

I suppose you adopt the money view toward privilege as well? 

Any good Marxist/Leftist will recognize that money is the primary element in privilege. 

Oh, are you a Marxist/Leftist?  I didn't get that impression at first. 

Nah, but I assume most AA supporters are.

And even though I recognize there are other avenues to power besides wealth, wealth is clearly the dominant factor in the U.S.  (See:  The jews, who are both ethnically and religiously distinct from the dominant white culture, and yet hold disproportionate influence today.)

[Lindbergh]

Homework for y'all:

Dig up the statistics on how many minorities attend law school. Also find out how many minorities end up in positions of power - partners, CEO's, whatever.

Look -- no one denies there are inequalities.  No one denies that less inequality would be desirable.  The question is how we achieve that.

We could shoot for a strict equality of results based on quotas, etc.  Or, we could simply create equality of opportunity, which civil rights legislation, combined with my proposed modification of AA, would presumably provide.  At that point, everyone would have an equal chance to compete, with their background controlled for.  

The problem with quotas, or even the overly broad AA we have today, is that they do in fact create more racism, and reinforce stereotypes.  That, to me, is not the path to greater equality, especially if we believe that such racism does in fact impact promotions, etc.  

[Lindbergh]

Nah, but I assume most AA supporters are.

Well if you don't believe in an argument, you're not allowed to use it. 

I think most of us on the left these days have accepted that there's more to privilege than just wealth.  Maybe the difference between our positions can be explained simply by the relative importance we place on wealth? 

Well, lets parse this out.  The relevant "privilege" at issue for admissions appears to be educational opportunity.  That appears to be impacted by money more than anything else, as wealthier familes can afford private schools, tutors, etc.

This would therefore appear to level the playing field between those more privileged minority families and white families.  In fact, it would appear to give those minority families an advantage over poorer white families, most of whom can't afford private school.

[Lindbergh]

At some point we should also talk about improving public schools. 

Of course -- better K-12 education would be far more helpful than band-aid preferences at the college and graduate school level.

However, this would not affect wealthier folks that much, who can presumably already afford private schools. 

[awesomepossum]

I didn't read the middle few pages of the thread.

But to stay on topic, it's worth noting that proposal 2 was effective only during the second half of the cycle.

Therefore the people who were admitted in the first part of the cycle may have faced different admissions standards as compared to people in the second part of the cycle.  That's one reason it may be difficult to compare the results of last years cycle to this years.

[Alan Shore]

There was an e-mail President Mary Sue Coleman sent us after last year's election.

Part of it said,

I am joined on these steps by the executive officers and deans of our university. We are united on this. You have my word as president that we will fight for what we believe in, and that is holding open the doors of this university to all people.

Today, I have directed our General Counsel to consider every legal option available to us.

...

Of course the University of Michigan will comply with the laws of the state.

At the same time, I guarantee my complete and unyielding commitment to increasing diversity at our institution.

Let me say that again: I am fully and completely committed to building diversity at Michigan, and I will do whatever it takes.

The full text can be found here: http://www.umich.edu/pres/speeches/061103div.html


The full proposal text was:

PROPOSAL 06-2
A PROPOSAL TO AMEND THE STATE CONSTITUTION TO BAN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION PROGRAMS THAT GIVE PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT TO GROUPS OR INDIVIDUALS BASED ON THEIR RACE, GENDER, COLOR, ETHNICITY OR NATIONAL ORIGIN FOR PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT, EDUCATION OR CONTRACTING PURPOSES
The proposed constitutional amendment would:
• Ban public institutions from using affirmative action programs that give preferential treatment to groups or individuals based on their race, gender, color, ethnicity or national origin for public employment, education or contracting purposes. Public institutions affected by the proposal include state government, local governments, public colleges and universities, community colleges and school districts.
• Prohibit public institutions from discriminating against groups or individuals due to their gender, ethnicity, race, color or national origin. (A separate provision of the state constitution already prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color or national origin.)

Just FYI! I have nothing to add to the debate!

[OperaAttorney]

Nope -- unwillingness to examine the issue honestly and in an open-minded manner = close minded. 

Pot ==> Kettle

So now you're attacking me just becuase you think I'm black?   

LOL

I think you wish you looked like Brad Pitt!

[OperaAttorney]

At some point we should also talk about improving public schools. 

Of course -- better K-12 education would be far more helpful than band-aid preferences at the college and graduate school level.

However, this would not affect wealthier folks that much, who can presumably already afford private schools. 

Better K-12 education would greatly improve the quality of minority students matriculating @ today's colleges and universities. But I've got to tell y'all about racism in private schools.

I first encountered racism as a teenager during the fall semester of my senior year at a private, Christian academy.  I hadn't take any honors courses, but I had performed extremely well as a junior, especially in Biology and Chemistry. In fact, I had helped several Honors Chemistry students with their homework even though I was enrolled in the regular Chemistry course. (They frequently asked why I didn't take the Honors Chemistry course).  Because of my ease with science courses and my stellar performance, I requested to enroll in the Honors Physics course, which led to a meeting with the vice-principal.  She told me she didn't think I could handle the Honors Physics course, because I had never taken an Honors class, and the Honors courses were much tougher than the regular courses.  In response I told her about my "unofficial" job as the Honors Chem tutor, but she acted like that meant nothing.  I also asked her if other students with no prior Honors coursework had ever enrolled in an Honors course.  As I expected, she revealed that some students had done so, but she emphasized that these were exceptional students. (Please note that the only non-A grade I'd received as a junior was in US History.)  At that point, I got indignant.  I wanted to ask if those "exceptional students" were white, but I decided to adopt a more diplomatic approach. (I didn't think showing out would do me much good since she was still the vice-principal.)  I prodded incessantly until she agreed to enroll me on a trial basis.  At the end of the semester I had the highest grade in Honors Physics, which meant that I could continue. End of story.

What's the point? I was old enough to discern her unspoken sentiment. Would she have reacted differently if I were white?  I'm not certain, but I'd bet you she would have.  Her polite condescension would have discouraged most other students, but my mama didn't no raise no fool!  I was determined to take Honors Physics, and would have gone to any length in order to enroll in the course.

I'm currently studying for Summer School finals, so I'm letting TJ and Piggy battle the AA-bashers for now. I need to keep a high GPA. After all, I don't want to piss off  my future presumptious law-school classmates who may think I got into a t14 law school with pathetic #s due to AA.

Cheers,

[Lindbergh]

Impacted by money more than anything else yes, but that doesn't mean impacted by money and nothing else. 

What else do you feel impacts those minorities who can afford educational advantages like private schools, tutors, safe homes, etc.?  Do these other advantages really meaningfully affect the ability to earn a grade, or perform on an exam?

[Lindbergh]

Nope -- unwillingness to examine the issue honestly and in an open-minded manner = close minded. 

Pot ==> Kettle

So now you're attacking me just becuase you think I'm black?   

LOL

I think you wish you looked like Brad Pitt!

I do look like Brad Pitt.  What's wrong with that?