No more AA at Michigan Law?

[Lindbergh]

The excuse that AA just stirs racial division is simply ri-f-ing-diculous, by the way; it's just a way for racists to rationalize their racism. Nothing more.

This is flatly ridiculous, and only someone wilfully blind could believe it.

Put yourself in the shoes of a poor, underprivileged white/asian.  Imagine yourself busting your ass to get into a good school.  Imagine yourself seeing a URM, who may well have had more advantages than you, getting admitted into that school ahead of you even if they had lower grades, scores, etc.  You don't think that's going to make you more resentful of that minority group?  You don't think the same thing hasn't made minorities resentful of whites in the past?

If you want to believe the benefits of AA outweight the negatives, that's fine.  But to ignore the negatives, and pretend they don't exist, is a recipe for disaster, at least if you care about race relations. 

1.You assume socio-economic hardships (or luxuries) are not being taken into account by ad-coms.

To the extent they are, this is obviously a step in the right direction.  It does appear that some schools will take into account hardships experienced by all groups, but overall, it also appears that even wealthy minorities are generally preferred over most whites/asians.

2. There is no justification for having a racist attitude - none. Quit being silly.

I guess I can largely agree with you here.  No matter how much discrimination a minority has suffered from some whites, it doesn't justify a racist attitude towards all whites, and vice versa. 

However, even if it doesn't justify racist feelings, I'm sure we can both understand how discrimination can in fact create greater resentment and anger.  Just looking at this thread, we can see some obvious anti-white prejudice and resentment, presumably reflecting past historical discrimination.  Expecting poor / working-class whites to be any different is silly.

If our real goal is minimizing racism, the system should probably be reformed.

[t...]

I guess I can largely agree with you here.  No matter how much discrimination a minority has suffered from some whites, it doesn't justify a racist attitude towards all whites, and vice versa. 

However, even if it doesn't justify racist feelings, I'm sure we can both understand how discrimination can in fact create greater resentment and anger.  Just looking at this thread, we can see some obvious anti-white prejudice and resentment, presumably reflecting past historical discrimination.  Expecting poor / working-class whites to be any different is silly.

If our real goal is minimizing racism, the system should clearly be overhauled.

Oh, I'm glad we agree re: the bolded.

The system does need overhauled (hence AA). And now that you clearly understand how "discrimination can in fact create great resentment and anger," you should now be able to sympathize with the resentment and anger minorities feel (and why).

[sharky]

tj,

Your arguments just consist of non-sequiturs and discussion-ending one-liners...

[t...]

tj,

Your arguments counter-points just consist of non-sequiturs and discussion-ending one-liners...

You're right. I'm too lazy to rehash what has already been quibbled a hundred times over. Nothing new is being said here. I do encourage you to go dig up those threads and read them, though.

[PNym]

I guess I can largely agree with you here.  No matter how much discrimination a minority has suffered from some whites, it doesn't justify a racist attitude towards all whites, and vice versa. 

However, even if it doesn't justify racist feelings, I'm sure we can both understand how discrimination can in fact create greater resentment and anger.  Just looking at this thread, we can see some obvious anti-white prejudice and resentment, presumably reflecting past historical discrimination.  Expecting poor / working-class whites to be any different is silly.

If our real goal is minimizing racism, the system should clearly be overhauled.

Oh, I'm glad we agree re: the bolded.

The system does need overhauled (hence AA). And now that you clearly understand how "discrimination can in fact create great resentment and anger," you should now be able to sympathize with the resentment and anger minorities feel (and why).

Wait a sec.

Lindbergh is arguing that the system of AA needs to be overhauled. You agree that the "system does need overhauled," and suggest that AA is an appropriate reform measure for that overhaul. I don't think what you're agreeing to is what Lindbergh is suggesting; your definition of what comprises the "system" must be different than his, as he thinks AA is inappropriate while you argue that it is appropriate.

Also, since you clearly understand how discrimination can in fact create great resentment and anger, you should now be able to sympathize with the resentment and anger un-privileged-by-AA groups feel towards the privileged-by-AA groups (and why).

Do you think a net increase in the amount of resentment and anger within a society is a benefit or a detriment?

[Lindbergh]

I guess I can largely agree with you here.  No matter how much discrimination a minority has suffered from some whites, it doesn't justify a racist attitude towards all whites, and vice versa. 

However, even if it doesn't justify racist feelings, I'm sure we can both understand how discrimination can in fact create greater resentment and anger.  Just looking at this thread, we can see some obvious anti-white prejudice and resentment, presumably reflecting past historical discrimination.  Expecting poor / working-class whites to be any different is silly.

If our real goal is minimizing racism, the system should clearly be overhauled.

Oh, I'm glad we agree re: the bolded.

Me too.  It seems pretty self-evident.

The system does need overhauled (hence AA).

Except that the system being discussed if of course AA, and this is therefore what needs to be reformed.  (I don't think you're really too dense to understand that, though.)  Officially instituting (or maintaining) unjustified discrimination clearly isn't going to reduce racism.

And now that you clearly understand how "discrimination can in fact create great resentment and anger," you should now be able to sympathize with the resentment and anger minorities feel (and why).

As a minority, I can certainly understand why minorities feel resentment towards discrimination.  As a human being, I can also understand why whites feel resentment towards discrimination.  As a sentient human being, I further understand why making whites more resentful towards minorities is bad for society, and especially bad for minorities. 

Can you?



The proper overhaul to the old system of official discrimination was to eliminate that discrimination, and outlaw it in both private and public sectors.  The proper remedy to helping people disadvantaged by historical discrimination is to help those people hurt by historical discrimination, not people who are not. 

[Lindbergh]

tj,

Your arguments counter-points just consist of non-sequiturs and discussion-ending one-liners...

You're right. I'm too lazy to rehash what has already been quibbled a hundred times over. Nothing new is being said here. I do encourage you to go dig up those threads and read them, though.

In other words, you've been taught that preferential admissions is a good thing, but you can't think of an actual defense for it, or even open your mind to the fact that AA as currently structured is often morally questionable and counterproductive.  Fair enough. 

[t...]

tj,

Your arguments counter-points just consist of non-sequiturs and discussion-ending one-liners...

You're right. I'm too lazy to rehash what has already been quibbled a hundred times over. Nothing new is being said here. I do encourage you to go dig up those threads and read them, though.

In other words, you've been taught that preferential admissions is a good thing, but you can't think of an actual defense for it, or even open your mind to the fact that AA as currently structured is often morally questionable and counterproductive.  Fair enough. 

Not quite, champ. You just haven't blown me away yet.

But don't feel bad. I was in your shoes only a few years ago.

[t...]

Start here.

Then here.

[Lindbergh]

In other words, you've been taught that preferential admissions is a good thing, but you can't think of an actual defense for it, or even open your mind to the fact that AA as currently structured is often morally questionable and counterproductive.  Fair enough. 

No.

He (and me) likes to annoy you.

Simple.

Okay, so you guys can't think of an actual defense for the system as currently stuctured, AND like to annoy people.  Fair enough.