Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?

[Seventeen]

I think, if you can't enter the legal profession ethically, how do you expect to practice ethically?

If you are white, you're white. I cannot imagine wondering my entire life if the only reason I got Xscholarship or got into Xschool was because I made a blatant LIE on my applications. Talk about the constant elephant in the room.

Horribly, I know of someone who falsly claimed URM, got into great schools w/ scholarships likely above where they should have gone, and even felt the need to dye their hair for the Admitted Student Weekends to cover their steps.

Isn't the theory... if you don't want to be caught in a lie, always tell the truth?

I think, if you feel you ARE a URM, and you can live with yourself every day, therefore not ever considering that it was a bad choice or misrepresentation, by all means... list URM. If you are not 100% sure you are being truthful, stay safe and claim only what you are.

Hmph.... ethics.

[wellpreserved]

You keep talking about these documented issues.  Your race is not documented, and there's no way to provide "solid proof" of URM statuses.  Even the administrators of genetic tests would tell you that such tests a merely probable and do not prove anything.

How would someone prover they are 1/8 black or 1/4 hispanic?  The simple answer is that they can't, and the C&F review would have no way of proving dishonesty.

I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

[Matthew]

If you are white, you're white. I cannot imagine wondering my entire life if the only reason I got Xscholarship or got into Xschool was because I made a blatant LIE on my applications. Talk about the constant elephant in the room.

I would think in most cases, though I have no basis for this claim, that it would less a case of blatant lying and more a case of questionable.

For instance checking the box when you're 1/16 of that race or something like that.

[Matthew]

I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

There is no "record" of self identification.  And I think you're very wrong.  They'd have to have a reason above "he doesn't look very black to me" to show dishonesty.  They may be powerful, but they can't be that arbitrary.  They're still a body subject to law suits and appeals.

I also think you're overestimating the likelihood of such an inquiry.  Since there would be no contrary information in your file, I can't see them looking to hard into the issue to begin with.

[wellpreserved]

No record? Really? In this day and age? I find it hard to believe that your undergrad record and how you identified on the SAT don't follow you to grad school and law school and so on. I know for a fact my race is listed on even my high school transcripts. So the rouse would have to start early.  And beyond the BAR I think that one's law school would take a special interest in the nordic looking hispanic who showed up and drained some of their valuable funds. While they may not call you a liar or demand you submit to a strand test I can see them pulling  you for review if not just out and out saying your all important scholarship - the one that precipitated this whole elaborate scheme for the get go - is no longer "available".

See, if one were a real URM they'd know that it's quite easy to be legally right and totally discriminatory at the same time. They don't have to offer a reason. Funding could just be "cut".

[ilsox7]

I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

There is no "record" of self identification.  And I think you're very wrong.  They'd have to have a reason above "he doesn't look very black to me" to show dishonesty.  They may be powerful, but they can't be that arbitrary.  They're still a body subject to law suits and appeals.

I also think you're overestimating the likelihood of such an inquiry.  Since there would be no contrary information in your file, I can't see them looking to hard into the issue to begin with.

You vastly underestimate State Bar C&F.  Have you started or gone through the process of applying?  Do you know the type of information they ask you?  Do you know the types of background checks they run on each applicant?  The number of people from your past that they contact?

[wellpreserved]

I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

There is no "record" of self identification.  And I think you're very wrong.  They'd have to have a reason above "he doesn't look very black to me" to show dishonesty.  They may be powerful, but they can't be that arbitrary.  They're still a body subject to law suits and appeals.

I also think you're overestimating the likelihood of such an inquiry.  Since there would be no contrary information in your file, I can't see them looking to hard into the issue to begin with.

You vastly underestimate State Bar C&F.  Have you started or gone through the process of applying?  Do you know the type of information they ask you?  Do you know the types of background checks they run on each applicant?  The number of people from your past that they contact?

Or vastly overestimates one's ability to manipulate people. Or something.

[Matthew]

I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

There is no "record" of self identification.  And I think you're very wrong.  They'd have to have a reason above "he doesn't look very black to me" to show dishonesty.  They may be powerful, but they can't be that arbitrary.  They're still a body subject to law suits and appeals.

I also think you're overestimating the likelihood of such an inquiry.  Since there would be no contrary information in your file, I can't see them looking to hard into the issue to begin with.

You vastly underestimate State Bar C&F.  Have you started or gone through the process of applying?  Do you know the type of information they ask you?  Do you know the types of background checks they run on each applicant?  The number of people from your past that they contact?

No, but I was responsible for administrating Top Secret SCI clearances, which I'm pretty sure are a little more thorough than C&F, and I know what things get caught.  It doesn't matter how many documents or checks they get, they won't find any way to undermine your racial assertion, unless you actually talked about lying about it.

I haven't gone through it, but Anna Ivey has, as well as been the dean of the admissions office of one of the most prestigious law schools in the country, and she says, as despicable as it is, there are no consequences for lying about race on apps.

[ilsox7]

I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

[wellpreserved]

I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

Me too. AND I don't think the problem starts with the BAR. I think your first problem would be with your law school. Again, they don't have to prove anything. They can just pull the money.