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Author Topic: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?  (Read 28505 times)

Matthew

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #70 on: August 06, 2007, 01:45:39 AM »
If you are white, you're white. I cannot imagine wondering my entire life if the only reason I got Xscholarship or got into Xschool was because I made a blatant LIE on my applications. Talk about the constant elephant in the room.

I would think in most cases, though I have no basis for this claim, that it would less a case of blatant lying and more a case of questionable.

For instance checking the box when you're 1/16 of that race or something like that.
Cycle finally finished!

170/3.82
Accepted: Michigan($$), UCLA, Virginia($$), Duke($$), Georgetown, Vanderbilt($$$), Notre Dame($$$), William & Mary($$$)
Deferred: Northwestern
Waitlisted: Penn ($$)
Rejected: Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, Chicago

Matthew

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #71 on: August 06, 2007, 01:49:32 AM »
I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

There is no "record" of self identification.  And I think you're very wrong.  They'd have to have a reason above "he doesn't look very black to me" to show dishonesty.  They may be powerful, but they can't be that arbitrary.  They're still a body subject to law suits and appeals.

I also think you're overestimating the likelihood of such an inquiry.  Since there would be no contrary information in your file, I can't see them looking to hard into the issue to begin with.
Cycle finally finished!

170/3.82
Accepted: Michigan($$), UCLA, Virginia($$), Duke($$), Georgetown, Vanderbilt($$$), Notre Dame($$$), William & Mary($$$)
Deferred: Northwestern
Waitlisted: Penn ($$)
Rejected: Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, Chicago

wellpreserved

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #72 on: August 06, 2007, 01:53:24 AM »
No record? Really? In this day and age? I find it hard to believe that your undergrad record and how you identified on the SAT don't follow you to grad school and law school and so on. I know for a fact my race is listed on even my high school transcripts. So the rouse would have to start early.  And beyond the BAR I think that one's law school would take a special interest in the nordic looking hispanic who showed up and drained some of their valuable funds. While they may not call you a liar or demand you submit to a strand test I can see them pulling  you for review if not just out and out saying your all important scholarship - the one that precipitated this whole elaborate scheme for the get go - is no longer "available".

See, if one were a real URM they'd know that it's quite easy to be legally right and totally discriminatory at the same time. They don't have to offer a reason. Funding could just be "cut".
I tested between 151 and 162. I hoped for the high end and ended up in the middle. Still, not a bad plan overall, I think.

LSAT: 156 (not taking it again and you can't make me)
GPA: 3.4ish. Still a semester to go
URM, non-trad, 12 yrs work exp, published
Looking for low debt and high aid

ilsox7

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #73 on: August 06, 2007, 01:54:50 AM »
I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

There is no "record" of self identification.  And I think you're very wrong.  They'd have to have a reason above "he doesn't look very black to me" to show dishonesty.  They may be powerful, but they can't be that arbitrary.  They're still a body subject to law suits and appeals.

I also think you're overestimating the likelihood of such an inquiry.  Since there would be no contrary information in your file, I can't see them looking to hard into the issue to begin with.

You vastly underestimate State Bar C&F.  Have you started or gone through the process of applying?  Do you know the type of information they ask you?  Do you know the types of background checks they run on each applicant?  The number of people from your past that they contact?

wellpreserved

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #74 on: August 06, 2007, 01:57:49 AM »
I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

There is no "record" of self identification.  And I think you're very wrong.  They'd have to have a reason above "he doesn't look very black to me" to show dishonesty.  They may be powerful, but they can't be that arbitrary.  They're still a body subject to law suits and appeals.

I also think you're overestimating the likelihood of such an inquiry.  Since there would be no contrary information in your file, I can't see them looking to hard into the issue to begin with.

You vastly underestimate State Bar C&F.  Have you started or gone through the process of applying?  Do you know the type of information they ask you?  Do you know the types of background checks they run on each applicant?  The number of people from your past that they contact?

Or vastly overestimates one's ability to manipulate people. Or something.
I tested between 151 and 162. I hoped for the high end and ended up in the middle. Still, not a bad plan overall, I think.

LSAT: 156 (not taking it again and you can't make me)
GPA: 3.4ish. Still a semester to go
URM, non-trad, 12 yrs work exp, published
Looking for low debt and high aid

Matthew

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #75 on: August 06, 2007, 02:00:05 AM »
I'll bite only because I cannot sleep.

They wouldn't have to prove your genetic make-up to prove you were dishonest. They could ask for a record of how you have self-identified before law school. They could ask for specific reasons why you identify with a particular racial group. Hell, they could ask you to make a pot of boiled pigs feet if they wanted to. The point is no state BAR owes you your license so the burden of proof rests not with them but with you - the one seriously in debt for a law degree that is pretty useless if they find you of contemptable character, questionable morality or manipulative behavior bordering on criminal (accepting money under false pretenses) in any way, shape, form or fashion.

You would be the one who would have to provide proof to the contrary. If you think a few thousand bucks is worth that then more power to you.

There is no "record" of self identification.  And I think you're very wrong.  They'd have to have a reason above "he doesn't look very black to me" to show dishonesty.  They may be powerful, but they can't be that arbitrary.  They're still a body subject to law suits and appeals.

I also think you're overestimating the likelihood of such an inquiry.  Since there would be no contrary information in your file, I can't see them looking to hard into the issue to begin with.

You vastly underestimate State Bar C&F.  Have you started or gone through the process of applying?  Do you know the type of information they ask you?  Do you know the types of background checks they run on each applicant?  The number of people from your past that they contact?

No, but I was responsible for administrating Top Secret SCI clearances, which I'm pretty sure are a little more thorough than C&F, and I know what things get caught.  It doesn't matter how many documents or checks they get, they won't find any way to undermine your racial assertion, unless you actually talked about lying about it.

I haven't gone through it, but Anna Ivey has, as well as been the dean of the admissions office of one of the most prestigious law schools in the country, and she says, as despicable as it is, there are no consequences for lying about race on apps.
Cycle finally finished!

170/3.82
Accepted: Michigan($$), UCLA, Virginia($$), Duke($$), Georgetown, Vanderbilt($$$), Notre Dame($$$), William & Mary($$$)
Deferred: Northwestern
Waitlisted: Penn ($$)
Rejected: Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, Chicago

ilsox7

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #76 on: August 06, 2007, 02:09:01 AM »
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

wellpreserved

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2007, 02:10:59 AM »
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

Me too. AND I don't think the problem starts with the BAR. I think your first problem would be with your law school. Again, they don't have to prove anything. They can just pull the money.
I tested between 151 and 162. I hoped for the high end and ended up in the middle. Still, not a bad plan overall, I think.

LSAT: 156 (not taking it again and you can't make me)
GPA: 3.4ish. Still a semester to go
URM, non-trad, 12 yrs work exp, published
Looking for low debt and high aid

Matthew

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #78 on: August 06, 2007, 02:12:09 AM »
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.
Cycle finally finished!

170/3.82
Accepted: Michigan($$), UCLA, Virginia($$), Duke($$), Georgetown, Vanderbilt($$$), Notre Dame($$$), William & Mary($$$)
Deferred: Northwestern
Waitlisted: Penn ($$)
Rejected: Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, Chicago

ilsox7

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2007, 02:13:07 AM »
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

Me too. AND I don't think the problem starts with the BAR. I think your first problem would be with your law school. Again, they don't have to prove anything. They can just pull the money.

I don't put much faith in law school administrators to actually go above and beyond their job to figure something out.  My experience with most of them has left me to believe the majority are fairly inept.  State Bar Associations, on the other hand, spend lots of time investigating their applicants.