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Author Topic: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?  (Read 28266 times)

sc3pt0r

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2007, 02:13:11 AM »
Not if you found out that your great-great-great-great-grandfather was from Spain and had blue eyes and blonde hair.

I think it's pretty sweet that I went to a historically black college for undergrad.  When I didn't identify as a particular race, I'm sure that the schools I applied to (most of them in Texas, probably familiar with my school) assumed that I wasn't white.  I mean, there aren't a whole lot of non-minorities at my school.
"I am prepared to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter." Winston Churchill

ilsox7

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2007, 02:14:49 AM »
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

At least in the state I am in, our Bar asks for every college I've ever attended.  Given that it took them 14 months to complete their initial review of my application, I do not think it is even remotely out of the question that they have a copy of my college application. 

wellpreserved

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2007, 02:15:09 AM »
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

Again, I just looked at my high school and college transcripts and both list my race and the race of my parents. Does that information not become apart of your official law school record? And is that record not used as the starting point for your BAR app?
I tested between 151 and 162. I hoped for the high end and ended up in the middle. Still, not a bad plan overall, I think.

LSAT: 156 (not taking it again and you can't make me)
GPA: 3.4ish. Still a semester to go
URM, non-trad, 12 yrs work exp, published
Looking for low debt and high aid

Matthew

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2007, 02:15:25 AM »
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

Me too. AND I don't think the problem starts with the BAR. I think your first problem would be with your law school. Again, they don't have to prove anything. They can just pull the money.

Schools, as Ivey explains, don't want to know that you're lying.  It's too awkward to have a policy on it (What's black? 1/4? 1/8?) and they get to report you as a minority if you report yourself as one, so they don't really care to know.  There is no way for them to tactfully, or even effectively verify race, so they don't do it.
Cycle finally finished!

170/3.82
Accepted: Michigan($$), UCLA, Virginia($$), Duke($$), Georgetown, Vanderbilt($$$), Notre Dame($$$), William & Mary($$$)
Deferred: Northwestern
Waitlisted: Penn ($$)
Rejected: Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, Chicago

Matthew

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #84 on: August 06, 2007, 02:19:43 AM »
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

Again, I just looked at my high school and college transcripts and both list my race and the race of my parents. Does that information not become apart of your official law school record? And is that record not used as the starting point for your BAR app?

I'm really surprised by that.  Neither my high school nor college transcripts list race.  My college transcript has my name, ID number, date of birth, and address, and that's it.
Cycle finally finished!

170/3.82
Accepted: Michigan($$), UCLA, Virginia($$), Duke($$), Georgetown, Vanderbilt($$$), Notre Dame($$$), William & Mary($$$)
Deferred: Northwestern
Waitlisted: Penn ($$)
Rejected: Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, Chicago

wellpreserved

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #85 on: August 06, 2007, 02:20:23 AM »
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

Me too. AND I don't think the problem starts with the BAR. I think your first problem would be with your law school. Again, they don't have to prove anything. They can just pull the money.

Schools, as Ivey explains, don't want to know that you're lying.  It's too awkward to have a policy on it (What's black? 1/4? 1/8?) and they get to report you as a minority if you report yourself as one, so they don't really care to know.  There is no way for them to tactfully, or even effectively verify race, so they don't do it.

I read the same passage in Ivey's book and I think we diverge on what is considered "proving". I maintain that nothing has to be proven. Neither does the reason for your funding being unavailable have to be stated. While I understand they do not ask for proof due to the very murky water that is race, I can also imagine enough questions by profs, other students, a pissy woman in financial aid would be enough for it to be called into question, just not being expressed to the student.

And what happens when you're asked to represent your program at minority days or fairs? Or asked to mentor other incoming minorities? Or asked how your member of an ethnic group affected your outlook on life and the law?

It seems to me there would be far too many opportunities that would demand one go into concoting an outright lie, one more verifiable and eventually so not worth it. It's not checking the box, it's the ongoing maintanence of the lie that could prove to be the problem. Not to mention the karma. Wouldn't want it to be me.
I tested between 151 and 162. I hoped for the high end and ended up in the middle. Still, not a bad plan overall, I think.

LSAT: 156 (not taking it again and you can't make me)
GPA: 3.4ish. Still a semester to go
URM, non-trad, 12 yrs work exp, published
Looking for low debt and high aid

wellpreserved

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #86 on: August 06, 2007, 02:22:20 AM »
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

Again, I just looked at my high school and college transcripts and both list my race and the race of my parents. Does that information not become apart of your official law school record? And is that record not used as the starting point for your BAR app?

I'm really surprised by that.  Neither my high school nor college transcripts list race.  My college transcript has my name, ID number, date of birth, and address, and that's it.

Perhaps I am older than you - pre privacy laws - but it is most definately listed on them. I was a bit surprised too but saw it to be of little concern seeing as how I didn't lie about it. I'm in North CArolina if that makes a difference. Although I thought in the 70s and 80s it was standard to record such information as most states were legally mandated to maintain a racially diverse public school system. How else would they prove they were abiding by the law if race weren't being tracked? How would bussing have worked?
I tested between 151 and 162. I hoped for the high end and ended up in the middle. Still, not a bad plan overall, I think.

LSAT: 156 (not taking it again and you can't make me)
GPA: 3.4ish. Still a semester to go
URM, non-trad, 12 yrs work exp, published
Looking for low debt and high aid

Matthew

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #87 on: August 06, 2007, 02:27:29 AM »
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

At least in the state I am in, our Bar asks for every college I've ever attended.  Given that it took them 14 months to complete their initial review of my application, I do not think it is even remotely out of the question that they have a copy of my college application. 
I just looked at my college's application and it doesn't even ask for race so I guess they have no official record to print.
Cycle finally finished!

170/3.82
Accepted: Michigan($$), UCLA, Virginia($$), Duke($$), Georgetown, Vanderbilt($$$), Notre Dame($$$), William & Mary($$$)
Deferred: Northwestern
Waitlisted: Penn ($$)
Rejected: Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, Chicago

ilsox7

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #88 on: August 06, 2007, 02:30:03 AM »
I guess I just do not understand how difficult it would be for the Bar Association to compare your college application to your law school application.  If you were white in college but hispanic in law school, you'd have some problems.

They wouldn't have ones college app, they'd have their transcripts, which do not list race.

Many institutions collect race data but do not disseminate it, as they'll tell you, it's collected for statistical reporting only, and in many cases, is not even tied to the applicant.

At least in the state I am in, our Bar asks for every college I've ever attended.  Given that it took them 14 months to complete their initial review of my application, I do not think it is even remotely out of the question that they have a copy of my college application. 
I just looked at my college's application and it doesn't even ask for race so I guess they have no official record to print.

Well, then you just need to hope that any of your former bosses or references don't identify you as a non-URM when contacted by the State Bar.  I wouldn't want that hanging over my head for the rest of my life though if I got away with it.

Matthew

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Re: Possible Consquences about lying that you are a URM?
« Reply #89 on: August 06, 2007, 02:31:21 AM »
Neither does the reason for your funding being unavailable have to be stated. While I understand they do not ask for proof due to the very murky water that is race, I can also imagine enough questions by profs, other students, a pissy woman in financial aid would be enough for it to be called into question, just not being expressed to the student.

And what happens when you're asked to represent your program at minority days or fairs? Or asked to mentor other incoming minorities? Or asked how your member of an ethnic group affected your outlook on life and the law?

It seems to me there would be far too many opportunities that would demand one go into concoting an outright lie, one more verifiable and eventually so not worth it. It's not checking the box, it's the ongoing maintanence of the lie that could prove to be the problem. Not to mention the karma. Wouldn't want it to be me.


I don't think the majority of these people would know your race to begin with?

Do you really think a class roster says "John Smith...Black"?

And I also think you underestimate the ability of someone who'd lie on about their race to just say no to showing students around and stuff based on their race.
Cycle finally finished!

170/3.82
Accepted: Michigan($$), UCLA, Virginia($$), Duke($$), Georgetown, Vanderbilt($$$), Notre Dame($$$), William & Mary($$$)
Deferred: Northwestern
Waitlisted: Penn ($$)
Rejected: Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, Chicago