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Author Topic: Religion in today's world  (Read 3126 times)

GraphiteDirigible

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Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2007, 04:41:50 PM »
Does the state create the rights of men or merely protect the rights men are endowed by their Creator? If there is no Creator, no God, then men create rights for themselves that they do not possess in virtue of what men are or how men have come into existence.

Unless and until we find a non-arbitrary secular basis for inalienable rights the religious voice will always be present in the public square.

Why must it be non-arbitrary?

What makes you think organized religion, especially Christianity, does not have an arbitrary basis?
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babyeatsdingo

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Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2007, 04:50:46 PM »
Does the state create the rights of men or merely protect the rights men are endowed by their Creator? If there is no Creator, no God, then men create rights for themselves that they do not possess in virtue of what men are or how men have come into existence.

Unless and until we find a non-arbitrary secular basis for inalienable rights the religious voice will always be present in the public square.

This statement's as baseless as the argument that without God a person cannot be moral.

Is it? Would you then please supply a non-arbitrary secular basis for inalienable rights?

On an aside, I'd argue that we cannot give substantive meaning to the term 'moral' on an atheistic view. But perhaps we should just focus on the issue I raise above for now.

GraphiteDirigible

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Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2007, 04:53:25 PM »
::contemplates semantics of moral, secular, arbitrary::

::gets stuck in endless loop::
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babyeatsdingo

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Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2007, 04:56:14 PM »
Does the state create the rights of men or merely protect the rights men are endowed by their Creator? If there is no Creator, no God, then men create rights for themselves that they do not possess in virtue of what men are or how men have come into existence.

Unless and until we find a non-arbitrary secular basis for inalienable rights the religious voice will always be present in the public square.

Oh sh*t. Where have you been?

Here.

GraphiteDirigible

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Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2007, 04:57:28 PM »
Does the state create the rights of men or merely protect the rights men are endowed by their Creator? If there is no Creator, no God, then men create rights for themselves that they do not possess in virtue of what men are or how men have come into existence.

Unless and until we find a non-arbitrary secular basis for inalienable rights the religious voice will always be present in the public square.

Oh sh*t. Where have you been?

Here.

::agrees with Goalie::

::runs away as well::
Happy colored marbles that are rolling in my head
I put 'em back in the jacket of the one I love
Carry that velvet sack full of pretty colored marbles
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babyeatsdingo

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Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2007, 05:02:42 PM »
Does the state create the rights of men or merely protect the rights men are endowed by their Creator? If there is no Creator, no God, then men create rights for themselves that they do not possess in virtue of what men are or how men have come into existence.

Unless and until we find a non-arbitrary secular basis for inalienable rights the religious voice will always be present in the public square.

Why must it be non-arbitrary?

What makes you think organized religion, especially Christianity, does not have an arbitrary basis?

Any rights we make for ourselves can be unmade relatively easily (i.e., they are alienable). Further, if God did not make men then men are what some say we are: accidental arrangements of atoms. Why should one arrangement have "rights" other arrangements don't? Etc.

GraphiteDirigible

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Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2007, 05:12:32 PM »
Why must it be non-arbitrary?

What makes you think organized religion, especially Christianity, does not have an arbitrary basis?

Any rights we make for ourselves can be unmade relatively easily (i.e., they are alienable). Further, if God did not make men then men are what some say we are: accidental arrangements of atoms. Why should one arrangement have "rights" other arrangements don't? Etc.

And do you think the rights we call inalienable are truly inalienable?

Assuming we are an accidental arrangement of atoms, we are also an accidental arrangement of atoms that is conscious of ourselves, cause and effect, and capable of evaluating the effects of our actions. We also are an arrangement of atoms that has only recently begun to see the possibility that we are not inherently relatively significant. These factors are why we believe our arrangement takes precedent.
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Carry that velvet sack full of pretty colored marbles
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highjumper

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Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2007, 05:37:16 PM »
Quote
And do you think the rights we call inalienable are truly inalienable?

Absolutely.  Humans posses the ability to alienate any other human from any right (as is done daily around the globe) said to be "inalienable", which means they are not inalienable at all in a universal sense.

Quote
This statement's as baseless as the argument that without God a person cannot be moral.


Is it? Would you then please supply a non-arbitrary secular basis for inalienable rights?


The rights the U.S. describe as inalienable (which I've established can be alienated) simply mean that as a society we have agreed to absolutely not alienate because of the greater social good.  However, this very day every American could decide to abandon all law, order, government, and established peace.  Nothing, including God, would guarantee inalienable rights.  In sum, they exist because our society formed them 200+ years ago and we agree to uphold them.  Our forefathers were mistaken or chose poor wording with "inalienable"-you choose.
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GraphiteDirigible

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Happy colored marbles that are rolling in my head
I put 'em back in the jacket of the one I love
Carry that velvet sack full of pretty colored marbles
And I'll ask you for 'em back, when I'm ready and done

babyeatsdingo

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Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2007, 06:34:55 PM »
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And do you think the rights we call inalienable are truly inalienable?

Yes. If, for example, human beings do not possess the objective moral property "dignity" or "worth" then there can be no such thing as a real crime against humanity (cf. Nuremberg). Men may not be unjustly deprived of dignity unless they really have dignity in the first place. If human dignity and the right to life are things we merely choose by fiat to ascribe to ourselves then these things are nothing more than "useful fictions".

Quote
Assuming we are an accidental arrangement of atoms, we are also an accidental arrangement of atoms that is conscious of ourselves, cause and effect, and capable of evaluating the effects of our actions. We also are an arrangement of atoms that has only recently begun to see the possibility that we are not inherently relatively significant. These factors are why we believe our arrangement takes precedent.

I'll get to this later. I've got to go.