Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: Religion in today's world  (Read 3030 times)

Hank Rearden

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 8615
  • Zurich is stained
    • View Profile
Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2007, 07:47:15 PM »
Religion offers no explanation, just blind, evidenceless answers not to be questioned.

I don't think you're being fair.  Have you ever read any theology?  Religion is how people once (and still) try to explain the world.  To say they ignore reason and evidence is absurd.  Just read CS Lewis for instance. 

I have read libraries based on Theology. My qualm is that answers are plenty and evidence is few in religious explanations of our universe. I will agree that not all religions are equal in this respect. Some do better than others to adopt science and mystique.  Yet most religions (I'm generalizing on pupose -cause I'm the General ;D) fight scientific evidence when it first arrives if it conflicts with the evidenceless dogma.  Why?   

I'm sure it's because they feel uncomfortable with the idea that everything they base their life on is wrong.  Again, that's not just a trait shared by the religious.  And simply pointing to some zealots who don't think the Earth revolves around the Sun, or who think gays will go to hell, doesn't prove that the existence of God is incompatible with reason/science. 
CLS '10

The appropriateness of Perpetua would probably depend on the tone of the writing.  When I used it, I (half playfully) thought the extra space made the words sort of resonate.

gillesthegreat

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 609
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2007, 09:52:07 PM »
Quote
I'm fine with science and reason, but it is those things (science and reason) that tell us everything must have a source of some kind.  That nothing can come from nothing.  And if that is so, who created science and reason?

Greeks.


Well, maybe I should add that you could at least also point out the problem inherent in that old argument of 'no clock without a clockmaker'. If God is the source of everything, that what is the source of God. AKA the problem of infinite regress. And if you then move on to 'well, God's different. He/She/It has no source', then you're postulating something that violates the very premise you invoked to claim that their was a problem to begin with. That is, nothing comes from nothing, therefore, I must conceptualize something that comes from nothing.

If you want to learn more, please contact your local philosopher.
Penn (2007)

GraphiteDirigible

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1163
  • Hey there fancypants.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2007, 10:06:24 PM »
Religion offers no explanation, just blind, evidenceless answers not to be questioned.

I don't think you're being fair.  Have you ever read any theology?  Religion is how people once (and still) try to explain the world.  To say they ignore reason and evidence is absurd.  Just read CS Lewis for instance. 

I have read libraries based on Theology. My qualm is that answers are plenty and evidence is few in religious explanations of our universe. I will agree that not all religions are equal in this respect. Some do better than others to adopt science and mystique.  Yet most religions (I'm generalizing on pupose -cause I'm the General ;D) fight scientific evidence when it first arrives if it conflicts with the evidenceless dogma.  Why?   

I'm sure it's because they feel uncomfortable with the idea that everything they base their life on is wrong.  Again, that's not just a trait shared by the religious.  And simply pointing to some zealots who don't think the Earth revolves around the Sun, or who think gays will go to hell, doesn't prove that the existence of God is incompatible with reason/science. 

No, just the current lack of evidence/testability for God makes it inconsistent with reason/science.

Um. A good book I recently read had this to say though(from a different perspective). Basically, when it comes to questions of the soul or of existence or of purpose, reason and science offer no explanation other than chance and randomness. All that is transcendent is explained away. This is a cold, passionless ideal to believe in and it takes away the meaning and beauty of the struggle in life. It may factually legitimate itself. But, what then is the purpose for any higher calling, and what can you derive passion from? And how are we to understand something infinite in our own terms anyway?

Anyway, that notion got me thinking...
   
 
Happy colored marbles that are rolling in my head
I put 'em back in the jacket of the one I love
Carry that velvet sack full of pretty colored marbles
And I'll ask you for 'em back, when I'm ready and done

gillesthegreat

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 609
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2007, 10:18:06 PM »
Quote
All that is transcendent is explained away.

Yes. Yes it is. So, you're construct is demolished. Boo Hoo.


Quote
This is a cold, passionless ideal to believe in

Ideal? WTF? That seems to suggest that the non-believing puppet you're holding up is saying that he is positing an ideal, something that should be. I know no such non-believers; they don't deal in ideals of that sort, but rather try to recognize reality. Big difference. Here's the difference illustrated. My ideal Friday night involves encountering twin Finnish swimsuit models who have a thing for pudgy nerds. The reality is that my Friday will be spent grocery shopping, and I will encounter ugly, fat, and unemployed people. That's not my ideal, but it's much more likely. Is it cold? Yes. Passionless? Yes. But it's real. It's acceptance of the facts and of the observable as real and tangible. What I want and what will happen are different. Now, you want there to be purpose to the universe? Be my guest. But don't confuse your desires with reality. Your desires can be whatever your imagination conceives (you pervert ... no wait, that's me). Your reality should, however, be based on facts and reason.
Penn (2007)

GraphiteDirigible

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1163
  • Hey there fancypants.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2007, 10:23:35 PM »
Quote
All that is transcendent is explained away.

Yes. Yes it is. So, you're construct is demolished. Boo Hoo.


Quote
This is a cold, passionless ideal to believe in

Ideal? WTF? That seems to suggest that the non-believing puppet you're holding up is saying that he is positing an ideal, something that should be. I know no such non-believers; they don't deal in ideals of that sort, but rather try to recognize reality. Big difference. Here's the difference illustrated. My ideal Friday night involves encountering twin Finnish swimsuit models who have a thing for pudgy nerds. The reality is that my Friday will be spent grocery shopping, and I will encounter ugly, fat, and unemployed people. That's not my ideal, but it's much more likely. Is it cold? Yes. Passionless? Yes. But it's real. It's acceptance of the facts and of the observable as real and tangible. What I want and what will happen are different. Now, you want there to be purpose to the universe? Be my guest. But don't confuse your desires with reality. Your desires can be whatever your imagination conceives (you pervert ... no wait, that's me). Your reality should, however, be based on facts and reason.

Whatever. If you want a link I can show you where I've debated about this to exhaustion (on your side of the argument).

I'm just saying. I personally am starting to feel, that's right feel, a different way about these things.
Happy colored marbles that are rolling in my head
I put 'em back in the jacket of the one I love
Carry that velvet sack full of pretty colored marbles
And I'll ask you for 'em back, when I'm ready and done

GraphiteDirigible

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1163
  • Hey there fancypants.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2007, 10:29:41 PM »
Also, ideal was the wrong word. Philosophy would've been better. And I stand by the rest.
Happy colored marbles that are rolling in my head
I put 'em back in the jacket of the one I love
Carry that velvet sack full of pretty colored marbles
And I'll ask you for 'em back, when I'm ready and done

highjumper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • Mindless masses, the General will lead you.....
    • View Profile
Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2007, 11:07:46 AM »
Certainly the argument of God's existence cannot be solved here.  The faithful will continue to believe because they require no evidence to believe.  In truth, I have no qualms with belief.  I do have qualms, however, when that belief (be they under the authority of Zeus, Jehovah, Jesus, Allah, Bahl, Ra, Homer Simpson...wouldn't he be a kick ass God!...etc.) system injects its tenets into social policy and governmentally controlled domains.  For example, why should any American be forced to read the Christain 10 Commandments in a courthouse.  Why should we even acknowledge God (let alone a specific God) in schools, branches of government, etc.  I see a bad trend of religious groups seeking to legislate their morality (just read you junk mail some time).

Certainly many principles of good social policy will (and hopefully should) coincide with religious tenets of various faiths.  But they should never be enacted in support of any faith(s) without being able to universally justify the good for those not of those faith(s) also. 

Americans have gradually be duped into believing that this country was set up by Christians on Christian principles.  False.  Sure some were Christians, but many weren't.  Many bordered Atheism, though it was even more unpopular then than now to declare that so they prefered "deist".  The principles they established were for all people independent of faith.

   
If we value the pursuit of knowledge, we must be free to follow wherever that search may lead us. The free mind is not a barking dog, to be tethered on a ten-foot chain.
-Adlai E. Stevenson Jr.

babyeatsdingo

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
    • View Profile
Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2007, 04:28:35 PM »
Does the state create the rights of men or merely protect the rights men are endowed by their Creator? If there is no Creator, no God, then men create rights for themselves that they do not possess in virtue of what men are or how men have come into existence.

Unless and until we find a non-arbitrary secular basis for inalienable rights the religious voice will always be present in the public square.

GraphiteDirigible

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1163
  • Hey there fancypants.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2007, 04:37:26 PM »
Does the state create the rights of men or merely protect the rights men are endowed by their Creator? If there is no Creator, no God, then men create rights for themselves that they do not possess in virtue of what men are or how men have come into existence.

Unless and until we find a non-arbitrary secular basis for inalienable rights the religious voice will always be present in the public square.

Oh *&^%. Where have you been?
Happy colored marbles that are rolling in my head
I put 'em back in the jacket of the one I love
Carry that velvet sack full of pretty colored marbles
And I'll ask you for 'em back, when I'm ready and done

Hank Rearden

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 8615
  • Zurich is stained
    • View Profile
Re: Religion in today's world
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2007, 04:39:54 PM »


that's because the human race is a filthy, disgusting, horrible species and deserves to be wiped off the face of the planet.

Even at Columbia?
CLS '10

The appropriateness of Perpetua would probably depend on the tone of the writing.  When I used it, I (half playfully) thought the extra space made the words sort of resonate.