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Author Topic: This is why affirmative should remain in tact  (Read 26738 times)

Lindbergh

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Re: This is why affirmative should remain in tact
« Reply #150 on: August 31, 2007, 05:13:22 AM »
There's no question that you're more likely to catch AIDS if you're gay.  

But I think the converse is true, that is, that AIDS is more likely to affect homosexuals than heterosexuals.

Do some research.

HIV/AIDS is "primarily spread by heterosexual sex." Directly sourced from (http://www.purposedriven.com/en-US/HIVAIDSCommunity/FastFacts/10_myths_about_HIV_AIDS.htm)

Reiterated here: "Most of the new cases of HIV and AIDS are due to sexual contact between a man and woman." (http://www.uihealthcare.com/topics/hivinfectionsaids/hivi4616.html)

And here: "Worldwide, more than 90 percent of all adolescent and adult HIV infections have resulted from heterosexual intercourse." (http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/womenhiv.htm)

Now, I've given you three sources (A Christian group, a university hospital, and the US Health and Human Services Dept.) If you deny the facts here, you've lost all credibility.

You are more likely to catch AIDS if you have unprotected sex - not if you're gay. Sowell perpetuates myths with regards to Gays and AIDS. For me, without any retraction, I don't trust his "expertise" in other matters. He's a non-pragmatic idealist.

Even if most new HIV cases come from heterosexual sex, that doesn't mean you are more likely to contract it if you are a straight than gay. The straight population is larger than the gay one.

Let's say there are 1050 people in a studied population, and 50 of those people are gay. Let's also say that 100 people from the group of 1050 have recently contracted AIDS, and of those 100, 90 were infected from heterosexual sex, 10 from homosexual sex.

In this scenario, 90% of the new cases of AIDS cases were due to heterosexual sex. Yet the likelihood of a gay person being infected, which is 20% (10/50), is much higher than the likelihood of a straight person being infected, which is 9% (90/1000).

Regardless of this point, or how one feels about gays or AIDS, a reasonable person would agree that Media Matters blatantly misrepresented Sowell's statements.

If you have to make up a statistical scenario to disprove the statistics I gave from credible sources, you have truly lost your way.

Well, no, I was trying to show you that the conclusion you drew from the statistical data presented was not supported by that data. That doesn't mean that your conclusion isn't true, but that the data doesn't support it.

I wasn't trying to disprove your statistics. I haven't looked at the methodology used to gather them, so I have no means of evaluating their truth. However, whether the statistics are true or not is irrelevant to the conclusion you tried to draw from them.

I didn't make the assertion. This is well known in the medical community. You and Sowell just haven't got the memo.


And yet, you continue to draw unsupported conclusions from the evidence.  We've pointed this out a million times -- do you really not get it yet?

Quick question -- are cars more dangerous than motorcycles, or vise-versa?

7S

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Re: This is why affirmative should remain in tact
« Reply #151 on: August 31, 2007, 09:24:11 AM »
I said that gay people are more likely to contract AIDS than straight people. That is, the overall rate of infection is higher in the gay population than the straight one.

Your argument was that this is incorrect, and that straight people are just as likely, or more likely to contract AIDS as gay people. That is, the overall rate of infection is equal or higher in the straight population than the gay one.

You attempted to support your conclusion with evidence that most AIDS cases are due to straight sex.

However, the relevant statistic is not the proportion of AIDS cases arising from straight sex vs. arising from gay sex, but the infection rate between the two populations.

Since the straight population is much larger than the gay one, it is possible that the AIDS rate is lower in the straight community than the gay community, even though it has a larger number of overall infections.

Since the statistics you provided don't provide information on the infection rates in the gay and straight populations, your conclusion is not supported by them.

Saying something about a memo, or appealing to what "is well known in the medical community," does not change the fact that the conclusion you provided is not supported by your evidence.

The stats I provide include both and specify those transmissions that result from gay sex and heterosexual sex. Click the link...that's why I provided them.
It is easy to change the language of oppression without changing the sociopolitical situation of its victims.

7S

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Re: This is why affirmative should remain in tact
« Reply #152 on: August 31, 2007, 09:26:18 AM »
P.S.:  We've made the facts clear to you repeatedly in this thread, and yet you continue to make sneaky, inaccurate assertions about Sowell, choosing ideology over substantive data.  It appears that you are the nasty, naughty, bad boy here.  :D

Where? lol@the crazy senator reference.
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PNym

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Re: This is why affirmative should remain in tact
« Reply #153 on: September 02, 2007, 02:19:07 AM »
I said that gay people are more likely to contract AIDS than straight people. That is, the overall rate of infection is higher in the gay population than the straight one.

Your argument was that this is incorrect, and that straight people are just as likely, or more likely to contract AIDS as gay people. That is, the overall rate of infection is equal or higher in the straight population than the gay one.

You attempted to support your conclusion with evidence that most AIDS cases are due to straight sex.

However, the relevant statistic is not the proportion of AIDS cases arising from straight sex vs. arising from gay sex, but the infection rate between the two populations.

Since the straight population is much larger than the gay one, it is possible that the AIDS rate is lower in the straight community than the gay community, even though it has a larger number of overall infections.

Since the statistics you provided don't provide information on the infection rates in the gay and straight populations, your conclusion is not supported by them.

Saying something about a memo, or appealing to what "is well known in the medical community," does not change the fact that the conclusion you provided is not supported by your evidence.

The stats I provide include both and specify those transmissions that result from gay sex and heterosexual sex. Click the link...that's why I provided them.

Of the 3 links you provided, only the NIH link provides any statistics whatsoever. And the NIH study does not examine the infection rate within the gay population vs. the infection rate within the non-gay population, which is the relevant point of contention.

For the purpose of evaluating Sowell's argument, which, as Lindbergh pointed out, dealt with issues involving United States school curriculum, can we agree to constrain the data to be examined solely to data involving the United States population?

7S

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Re: This is why affirmative should remain in tact
« Reply #154 on: September 02, 2007, 10:11:14 AM »
I said that gay people are more likely to contract AIDS than straight people. That is, the overall rate of infection is higher in the gay population than the straight one.

Your argument was that this is incorrect, and that straight people are just as likely, or more likely to contract AIDS as gay people. That is, the overall rate of infection is equal or higher in the straight population than the gay one.

You attempted to support your conclusion with evidence that most AIDS cases are due to straight sex.

However, the relevant statistic is not the proportion of AIDS cases arising from straight sex vs. arising from gay sex, but the infection rate between the two populations.

Since the straight population is much larger than the gay one, it is possible that the AIDS rate is lower in the straight community than the gay community, even though it has a larger number of overall infections.

Since the statistics you provided don't provide information on the infection rates in the gay and straight populations, your conclusion is not supported by them.

Saying something about a memo, or appealing to what "is well known in the medical community," does not change the fact that the conclusion you provided is not supported by your evidence.

The stats I provide include both and specify those transmissions that result from gay sex and heterosexual sex. Click the link...that's why I provided them.

Of the 3 links you provided, only the NIH link provides any statistics whatsoever. And the NIH study does not examine the infection rate within the gay population vs. the infection rate within the non-gay population, which is the relevant point of contention.

For the purpose of evaluating Sowell's argument, which, as Lindbergh pointed out, dealt with issues involving United States school curriculum, can we agree to constrain the data to be examined solely to data involving the United States population?

"the stamp of acceptance on homosexuality, as a means of spreading that lifestyle, which has become a deathstyle in the AIDS era." - does not provide any geographical scope. He then uses this statement, which lacks geographical scope, to support an unsupported argument against AIDS education in US schools.
It is easy to change the language of oppression without changing the sociopolitical situation of its victims.

Lindbergh

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Re: This is why affirmative should remain in tact
« Reply #155 on: September 02, 2007, 12:24:00 PM »
I said that gay people are more likely to contract AIDS than straight people. That is, the overall rate of infection is higher in the gay population than the straight one.

Your argument was that this is incorrect, and that straight people are just as likely, or more likely to contract AIDS as gay people. That is, the overall rate of infection is equal or higher in the straight population than the gay one.

You attempted to support your conclusion with evidence that most AIDS cases are due to straight sex.

However, the relevant statistic is not the proportion of AIDS cases arising from straight sex vs. arising from gay sex, but the infection rate between the two populations.

Since the straight population is much larger than the gay one, it is possible that the AIDS rate is lower in the straight community than the gay community, even though it has a larger number of overall infections.

Since the statistics you provided don't provide information on the infection rates in the gay and straight populations, your conclusion is not supported by them.

Saying something about a memo, or appealing to what "is well known in the medical community," does not change the fact that the conclusion you provided is not supported by your evidence.

The stats I provide include both and specify those transmissions that result from gay sex and heterosexual sex. Click the link...that's why I provided them.


Please paste the section that shows that a straight person is more likely to catch aids than a gay person.

Lindbergh

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Re: This is why affirmative should remain in tact
« Reply #156 on: September 02, 2007, 12:27:59 PM »
I said that gay people are more likely to contract AIDS than straight people. That is, the overall rate of infection is higher in the gay population than the straight one.

Your argument was that this is incorrect, and that straight people are just as likely, or more likely to contract AIDS as gay people. That is, the overall rate of infection is equal or higher in the straight population than the gay one.

You attempted to support your conclusion with evidence that most AIDS cases are due to straight sex.

However, the relevant statistic is not the proportion of AIDS cases arising from straight sex vs. arising from gay sex, but the infection rate between the two populations.

Since the straight population is much larger than the gay one, it is possible that the AIDS rate is lower in the straight community than the gay community, even though it has a larger number of overall infections.

Since the statistics you provided don't provide information on the infection rates in the gay and straight populations, your conclusion is not supported by them.

Saying something about a memo, or appealing to what "is well known in the medical community," does not change the fact that the conclusion you provided is not supported by your evidence.

The stats I provide include both and specify those transmissions that result from gay sex and heterosexual sex. Click the link...that's why I provided them.

Of the 3 links you provided, only the NIH link provides any statistics whatsoever. And the NIH study does not examine the infection rate within the gay population vs. the infection rate within the non-gay population, which is the relevant point of contention.

For the purpose of evaluating Sowell's argument, which, as Lindbergh pointed out, dealt with issues involving United States school curriculum, can we agree to constrain the data to be examined solely to data involving the United States population?

"the stamp of acceptance on homosexuality, as a means of spreading that lifestyle, which has become a deathstyle in the AIDS era." - does not provide any geographical scope. He then uses this statement, which lacks geographical scope, to support an unsupported argument against AIDS education in US schools.


For what it's worth, it would appear that gay sex is more likely to transmit AIDS pretty much anywhere on the planet.  And again, Sowell doesn't say that AIDS doesn't ever effect straight people -- he's simply saying that it is particularly devastating to the gay community, and has killed many gays -- which it clearly is, and clearly has. However, Sowell, is also clearly focused on the U.S., as indicated by his other statements. 

I certainly support AIDS education generally, as long as it is taught objectively and accurately -- that any unprotected sex can be dangerous, but that certain kinds of sex are more dangerous than others, and that AIDS rates are higher, for whatever reason, within certain communities.  People can then draw truly informed conclusions from that.

7S

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Re: This is why affirmative should remain in tact
« Reply #157 on: September 02, 2007, 01:15:26 PM »
For what it's worth, it would appear that gay sex is more likely to transmit AIDS pretty much anywhere on the planet.  And again, Sowell doesn't say that AIDS doesn't ever effect straight people -- he's simply saying that it is particularly devastating to the gay community, and has killed many gays -- which it clearly is, and clearly has. However, Sowell, is also clearly focused on the U.S., as indicated by his other statements. 

I certainly support AIDS education generally, as long as it is taught objectively and accurately -- that any unprotected sex can be dangerous, but that certain kinds of sex are more dangerous than others, and that AIDS rates are higher, for whatever reason, within certain communities.  People can then draw truly informed conclusions from that.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.
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7S

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Re: This is why affirmative should remain in tact
« Reply #158 on: September 02, 2007, 02:27:08 PM »
I said that gay people are more likely to contract AIDS than straight people. That is, the overall rate of infection is higher in the gay population than the straight one.

Your argument was that this is incorrect, and that straight people are just as likely, or more likely to contract AIDS as gay people. That is, the overall rate of infection is equal or higher in the straight population than the gay one.

You attempted to support your conclusion with evidence that most AIDS cases are due to straight sex.

However, the relevant statistic is not the proportion of AIDS cases arising from straight sex vs. arising from gay sex, but the infection rate between the two populations.

Since the straight population is much larger than the gay one, it is possible that the AIDS rate is lower in the straight community than the gay community, even though it has a larger number of overall infections.

Since the statistics you provided don't provide information on the infection rates in the gay and straight populations, your conclusion is not supported by them.

Saying something about a memo, or appealing to what "is well known in the medical community," does not change the fact that the conclusion you provided is not supported by your evidence.

The stats I provide include both and specify those transmissions that result from gay sex and heterosexual sex. Click the link...that's why I provided them.


Please paste the section that shows that a straight person is more likely to catch aids than a gay person.

::sigh::  ::)

U.S.

In 2005, males made up 74% of adults and adolescents diagnosed with HIV/AIDS. Of that 74%, gay male sex alone accounted for 67% of new HIV/AIDS diagnosis.

Females accounted for 26% of adults and adolescents diagnosed with HIV/AIDS. Of that 24%, 80% was from heterosexual sex.

This does indeed translate into a nearly 50% diagnosis rate for male-to-male sexual contact in the U.S.

(CDC; http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/At-A-Glance.htm)

----------------------------------------

With all that said, HIV/AIDS, as you and others are trying to manipulate, is not an American disease. The statistics for rates of infection among demographics varies from country to country. So to limit the scope of data only manipulates the findings, as Sowell so masterfully does. As mentioned prior, "Worldwide, more than 90 percent of all adolescent and adult HIV infections have resulted from heterosexual intercourse." (NIH; http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/womenhiv.htm) It is, therefore, disingenuous to even hint that HIV/AIDS is a gay problem or as Sowell suggests, "the stamp of acceptance on homosexuality, as a means of spreading that lifestyle, which has become a deathstyle in the AIDS era."

It is problematic, Lindbergh, that you would suggest that the risk associated with anal and vaginal sex are the same in Uganda because "because there's simply far more promiscuity, unprotected sex, and consequent infection." Why is Uganda far more promiscuous than the States? A reasonably and scientifically proven justification (even though some disagree) for this phenomenon is that circumcision, which is unique on a broad basis in only some nations, decreases the risk of infection from woman to man.
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dashrashi

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Re: This is why affirmative should remain in tact
« Reply #159 on: September 02, 2007, 02:50:58 PM »
By the way, it is just as arguable that cars are more dangerous than motorcycles (because of the overall number of fatalities they cause) as it is the reverse (because of different fatality rates). So insisting that AIDS can be construed as more of a problem for gay people in the US because the rate of infection in that population is higher isn't true. You could just as easily say that AIDS is more of a problem for the straight community, because of the vastly larger number of infected people. Therefore, it's intellectually dishonest to insist that one is true over the other. By calling AIDS a gay problem, that's what you are doing.
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