Law School Discussion

PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?

Elephant Lee

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Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
« Reply #230 on: July 16, 2007, 12:24:24 PM »
Your prediction is proven incorrect by countless statistics and research. Couples with prenups are no more likely to divorce.
Early on in this thread I looked and didn't find any stats at all on prenups. I haven't seen any posted so far. Can you substantiate this?

ETA: Other substantial things that have been completely ignored in this thread:
-Does a prenup make a divorce less contentious or damaging (financially, emotionally, etc.)?
-Does a prenup make the outcome more fair/equitable?

GraphiteDirigible

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Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
« Reply #231 on: July 16, 2007, 12:28:07 PM »
People who are already considering prenups and divorce before even meeting a potential fiance are definitely demonstrating some of those characteristics.

Uh, hardly. Good luck finding anything remotely scientific to support this. I can guarantee you that people who feel more comfortable preparing for future problems are way more relaxed and optimistic about their future than people who do not.

A) Do I need to find evidence for something that is obvious. Considering divorce and prenups before even meeting someone shows a devotion to money and a cynicism about marriage. What needs to be proven? It is what it is. If you want to know about how long hours, devotion to money, and cynicism intertwine to cause depression, divorce, and suicide read the articles.

B) Find scientific evidence for your 'guarantee'.

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Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
« Reply #232 on: July 16, 2007, 12:40:03 PM »
Quote
Mahar found that although respondents to her survey correctly identified the national divorce rate at approximately 50 percent, they believed their own chance of divorcing was just 11.7 percent. The more optimistic a respondent was about the enduring success of his or her marriage, the less likely he or she was to consider requesting a prenuptial agreement. "Just like everyone thinks they're a better-than-average driver, everyone thinks that there's no way their marriage will end in divorce," says Mahar.
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/10.16/01-prenup.html

Your prediction is proven incorrect by countless statistics and research. Couples with prenups are no more likely to divorce.
No more or less than your average Google search. I've read up on what I could find, and pretty much all info (including Divorce Magazine etc) seems to indicate what I said, there's no noticeable difference in the chance of a divorce. In terms of solid research I haven't found much, probably since having a prenup or not isn't public information in weddings.
Early on in this thread I looked and didn't find any stats at all on prenups. I haven't seen any posted so far. Can you substantiate this?

Quote
ETA: Other substantial things that have been completely ignored in this thread:
-Does a prenup make a divorce less contentious or damaging (financially, emotionally, etc.)?
-Does a prenup make the outcome more fair/equitable?
Well, the answer to those two questions would obviously be yes, since that's exactly what a prenup does. I'm not even going to bother to google this for anecdotal evidence :)

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Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
« Reply #233 on: July 16, 2007, 12:43:16 PM »
Quote
Based on the findings of a recent Harvard Law School study, it may be more apropos for a bride and groom to declare "I don't trust you!" at the altar than share "I do's." The study concluded that contrary to popular belief, a prenuptial agreement increases the chances of marriage success. It attempts to convert the marriage union into a sterile cooperative.
Although, the link to the Harvard Gazette ends in a 404...

Edit; http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2007/1/emw498173.htm

Alamo

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Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
« Reply #234 on: July 16, 2007, 12:49:53 PM »
Keno,

I'm not going to extend this pissing match any further except to state that:

1) I'm not sure how you draw your conclusion that divorces are more common than married-for-life scenarios.  Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any good statistics on what percentage of marriages end in divorce.  Whatever the actual percentage is, it's skewed upwards by people who marry more than once.  I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that divorce is more common than marriage.  I beg to be enlightened.

1a) I think it's great that fewer people are getting married, since our culture seems to be moving toward a more cost-benefit oriented conception of marriage, which, as I've stated haughtily before, I do not consider to be marriage at all.   

2) You'll understand better if you ever mature to the point where you're looking for something more than "a sterile cooperative."  Or maybe you'll just die fat, bald, ugly and alone.

Elephant Lee

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Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
« Reply #235 on: July 16, 2007, 12:55:17 PM »
Quote
Based on the findings of a recent Harvard Law School study, it may be more apropos for a bride and groom to declare "I don't trust you!" at the altar than share "I do's." The study concluded that contrary to popular belief, a prenuptial agreement increases the chances of marriage success. It attempts to convert the marriage union into a sterile cooperative.
Although, the link to the Harvard Gazette ends in a 404...

Edit; http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2007/1/emw498173.htm
I can only find other summaries of Mahar's work, but it doesn't look to me like she's actually researched whether prenups increase the chance of divorce in practice. She thinks they may reduce the likelihood of divorce because they can make divorce more difficult, but it's not clear whether that's backed up by stats.

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Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
« Reply #236 on: July 16, 2007, 01:00:40 PM »
1) I'm not sure how you draw your conclusion that divorces are more common than married-for-life scenarios.  Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any good statistics on what percentage of marriages end in divorce.  Whatever the actual percentage is, it's skewed upwards by people who marry more than once.  I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that divorce is more common than marriage.  I beg to be enlightened.
49% of American marriages  end in divorce. Some people marry more than once. It's a mathematical certainty that divorces outnumber marriage-for-life, unless every single marriage that doesn't end in a divorce is a first marriage. We know for a fact that many of these are 2nd, 3rd or "worse" marriages, thus it's proven.

Quote
1a) I think it's great that fewer people are getting married, since our culture seems to be moving toward a more cost-benefit oriented conception of marriage, which, as I've stated haughtily before, I do not consider to be marriage at all.
I completely agree.

Quote
2) You'll understand better when you're older, and looking for something more than "a sterile cooperative."  Or maybe you'll just die fat, bald, ugly and alone.
I am older, and the sterile cooperative wasn't my words. I don't even like that comparison. My "passion" for prenups are simply about being prepared. Doesn't even have to be for your own sake, what if you have 5-6 year old children when you go through a heated divorce? If there's one thing we know for sure, it is that children are the ones most negatively affected by a divorce. If not for yourself, make it easier for them.

Quote
I can only find other summaries of Mahar's work, but it doesn't look to me like she's actually researched whether prenups increase the chance of divorce in practice. She thinks they may reduce the likelihood of divorce because they can make divorce more difficult, but it's not clear whether that's backed up by stats.
I didn't put much effort into it, as I've said, I googled a bit throughout this thread because I find it to be an interesting topic, and I'm largely going by anecdotal evidence, since I can't find anything empiric. I also only found a news summary of Mehar's research and not her actual papers either.

Alamo

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Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
« Reply #237 on: July 16, 2007, 01:04:05 PM »
1) I'm not sure how you draw your conclusion that divorces are more common than married-for-life scenarios.  Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any good statistics on what percentage of marriages end in divorce.  Whatever the actual percentage is, it's skewed upwards by people who marry more than once.  I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that divorce is more common than marriage.  I beg to be enlightened.
49% of American marriages end in divorce. Some people marry more than once. It's a mathematical certainty that divorces outnumber marriage-for-life, unless every single marriage that doesn't end in a divorce is a first marriage. We know for a fact that many of these are 2nd, 3rd or "worse" marriages, thus it's proven.

From where do you get 49%?

Elephant Lee

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Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
« Reply #238 on: July 16, 2007, 01:04:23 PM »
Apparently Heather Mahar was on The Amazing Race.  :D

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Re: PRENUP - why is it such a sore topic?
« Reply #239 on: July 16, 2007, 01:08:06 PM »
From where do you get 49%?

Some ranking of countries sorted by chance of divorce, USA placed 5th with 49%. That being said the 49% or "close to 50%" is cited so many places I doubt it will be difficult to have it confirmed.

What I really found interesting is that only approximately 10% of the population believe a divorce will happen to them. Then again, I was quite surprised with your confidence in your marriage as well.