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Author Topic: Shortage of Black Men in Law (Dismal)  (Read 12215 times)

marcusbarnes30

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Re: Shortage of Black Men in Law (Dismal)
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2007, 12:44:08 PM »
But my question is why Law. I don't have any statistics at my immediate disposal, but it really seems as though there are more Black male doctors, MBAs, PHDs and other post graduates than lawyers. Even within my own Frat(we almost 101 years old) I know of only a handful of brothers that aspire to be lawyers and even fewer who are lawyers. Is there something about the practice of law that we as educated Black men are turned off by?? Is it a lack of interest? What?

Re: Shortage of Black Men in Law (Dismal)
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2007, 12:50:31 PM »
That is something that I have always questioned also, why law? Is it the debt? The dedication? We make are usually the majority of inmates...yet nobody is doing anything...we need more black lawyers!

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Re: Shortage of Black Men in Law (Dismal)
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2007, 07:29:17 PM »
That is something that I have always questioned also, why law? Is it the debt? The dedication? We make are usually the majority of inmates...yet nobody is doing anything...we need more black lawyers!

It can'tbe the bolded--med school and business school are expensive too--and medical school requires even more dedication than law school.
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Re: Shortage of Black Men in Law (Dismal)
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2007, 09:32:57 AM »
But my question is why Law. I don't have any statistics at my immediate disposal, but it really seems as though there are more Black male doctors, MBAs, PHDs and other post graduates than lawyers. Even within my own Frat(we almost 101 years old) I know of only a handful of brothers that aspire to be lawyers and even fewer who are lawyers. Is there something about the practice of law that we as educated Black men are turned off by?? Is it a lack of interest? What?

Actually the answer to this could be somewhat a look into the socio-psychological aspect of it all. Care to explain Pulchy? Why yes, I'm glad you asked ;) (Ok that was corny, but stay with me please).

Think about it, at least in the perception of black males what entity in the United States besides the political entity has been the most unfair and unjust to us? Yes exactly right the LEGAL system. Hold on though, I'm not at all saying that most of the AA men in prison are innocent, but there are more than a few that feel as if they have received a raw deal. There is such an amazing distrust in the law and anything legal that is ingrained in  African-American males that Law School is the furthest away from our minds as far as career opportunities.

The other institutions mentioned don't quite have the same effect on AA men as in law. Yes it's true that some feel that the medical community has no real interest in them, but the consequences of bad health doesn't hold the same emotional bind as spending a significant portion of your life behind bars.

So as a rebuttal one can say "yes Pulchy, I can see your point, but not all black men feel as if their life is leading them on the "prison career path" - (yes one can argue that the disproportionate amount of AA males in prison is almost like it being a career path. BTW that was meant to be tongue in cheek.)- but even amongst the achievers of the AA male community knows of or is related to another black male that in their eyes have been mistreated in the justice system. This leads to distrust in the legal system even with black males who aren't in the system themselves. Also for the achieving AA males that are upstanding citizens they sometimes feel that they are one traffic stop away from being just "anudda nigra"...see Crash the movie.

Basically there is just a general dis-ease about the legal system that African-American males have. Some of it unfounded I will admit, but as we all know sometimes perception is reality. Oh and there is the issue of that LSAT. So from the very few who do aspire to become lawyers, a lot are eliminated from the process because of the test. I'm not gonna go into what is fair and what isn't, I'll just say that the assessment is brutal to African-American males for a variety of reasons, therefore reducing the pool of aspirants even further.

Oh and why doesn't this seem to affect the African-American females as much? That is a very good question, and one of the answers is one of the reasons why I respect black women so much.(Warning this explanation will follow a path of digression). From the overall theory of oppression it seems as if the most efficient way to oppress a group of people is to attack and retard the progression of the leader or head of a particular group. In this case it was the black males. Through humiliation and demasculinization some of the inherent strengths of black males has been tapped. This led to a self replicating and almost indelible cycle of underachieving in the AA male community. Through it all the one pillar of strength and the glue who kept it all together has historically been the black woman. They have been the ones to step up to the plate and hold things down including playing dual roles in the family. So to me at least there is no surprise in seeing African American females doing so well in contrast to African-American males. This is my personal opinion here, but I feel as if the Majority feels less threatened by an upward bound population of black women than an upward bound community of black men, so they are more likely to promote the upward movement of "sisters" over "brothers". Again this is just my opinion.


Cliff Notes version: Basically there is a general uneasiness,distrust, and ignorance in the legal system in the eyes of black males, which could explain the lack of knowledge and interest in attaining legal education or even starting the legal education process.






wellpreserved

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Re: Shortage of Black Men in Law (Dismal)
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2007, 09:54:33 AM »
All very good points.

I'd also like to add that I think some of the skills that are percieved as "lawyerly" are attributed to being natural female strengths. People, in general, think of lawyers as verbose and cunning - and most bruhs I know think women when they think verbose and cunning. Add to that the fact that women tend to be viewed as stronger readers and better at logic arguments and I think some men just don't see it as a career that plays to their strengths. (ever seen a man and woman argue and by the time the poor dude has caught up with the fact that an arguement is taking place the sister done laid out her case, presented evidence and is issuing punishment! LOL) I know some men who would rather shoot themselves in the head than have the same argument all day long - which is often what the study of law is like.

So beyond the race specific issues mentioned by other posters I think there may be a gender specific bias also at play. That gender bias probably plays out less so with white counterparts because they feel a sense of ownership of the law and because they usually have exposure to the real practice of law and know that there is more to the legal field than arguments. They tend to know more about its practical applications in business and academia.

But my question is why Law. I don't have any statistics at my immediate disposal, but it really seems as though there are more Black male doctors, MBAs, PHDs and other post graduates than lawyers. Even within my own Frat(we almost 101 years old) I know of only a handful of brothers that aspire to be lawyers and even fewer who are lawyers. Is there something about the practice of law that we as educated Black men are turned off by?? Is it a lack of interest? What?

Actually the answer to this could be somewhat a look into the socio-psychological aspect of it all. Care to explain Pulchy? Why yes, I'm glad you asked ;) (Ok that was corny, but stay with me please).

Think about it, at least in the perception of black males what entity in the United States besides the political entity has been the most unfair and unjust to us? Yes exactly right the LEGAL system. Hold on though, I'm not at all saying that most of the AA men in prison are innocent, but there are more than a few that feel as if they have received a raw deal. There is such an amazing distrust in the law and anything legal that is ingrained in  African-American males that Law School is the furthest away from our minds as far as career opportunities.

The other institutions mentioned don't quite have the same effect on AA men as in law. Yes it's true that some feel that the medical community has no real interest in them, but the consequences of bad health doesn't hold the same emotional bind as spending a significant portion of your life behind bars.

So as a rebuttal one can say "yes Pulchy, I can see your point, but not all black men feel as if their life is leading them on the "prison career path" - (yes one can argue that the disproportionate amount of AA males in prison is almost like it being a career path. BTW that was meant to be tongue in cheek.)- but even amongst the achievers of the AA male community knows of or is related to another black male that in their eyes have been mistreated in the justice system. This leads to distrust in the legal system even with black males who aren't in the system themselves. Also for the achieving AA males that are upstanding citizens they sometimes feel that they are one traffic stop away from being just "anudda nigra"...see Crash the movie.

Basically there is just a general dis-ease about the legal system that African-American males have. Some of it unfounded I will admit, but as we all know sometimes perception is reality. Oh and there is the issue of that LSAT. So from the very few who do aspire to become lawyers, a lot are eliminated from the process because of the test. I'm not gonna go into what is fair and what isn't, I'll just say that the assessment is brutal to African-American males for a variety of reasons, therefore reducing the pool of aspirants even further.

Oh and why doesn't this seem to affect the African-American females as much? That is a very good question, and one of the answers is one of the reasons why I respect black women so much.(Warning this explanation will follow a path of digression). From the overall theory of oppression it seems as if the most efficient way to oppress a group of people is to attack and retard the progression of the leader or head of a particular group. In this case it was the black males. Through humiliation and demasculinization some of the inherent strengths of black males has been tapped. This led to a self replicating and almost indelible cycle of underachieving in the AA male community. Through it all the one pillar of strength and the glue who kept it all together has historically been the black woman. They have been the ones to step up to the plate and hold things down including playing dual roles in the family. So to me at least there is no surprise in seeing African American females doing so well in contrast to African-American males. This is my personal opinion here, but I feel as if the Majority feels less threatened by an upward bound population of black women than an upward bound community of black men, so they are more likely to promote the upward movement of "sisters" over "brothers". Again this is just my opinion.


Cliff Notes version: Basically there is a general uneasiness,distrust, and ignorance in the legal system in the eyes of black males, which could explain the lack of knowledge and interest in attaining legal education or even starting the legal education process.






I tested between 151 and 162. I hoped for the high end and ended up in the middle. Still, not a bad plan overall, I think.

LSAT: 156 (not taking it again and you can't make me)
GPA: 3.4ish. Still a semester to go
URM, non-trad, 12 yrs work exp, published
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Slim

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Re: Shortage of Black Men in Law (Dismal)
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2007, 10:34:26 AM »
Some of it may have to do with a combination of the typical lawyers personality, and the normal obstacles and percieved barriers for Blacks.  It's quite evident from this site, and the students & Graduates site, that law students (and lawyers) are pessimistic and show signs of depression/anxiety.  Most of the 1L's aren't convinced they will actuall do well in L.S. if they pass at all. Black males, suited for a career in the law, have a hard time believing they will even pass the LSAT let alone get accepted to L.S...  Add the on the costs of testing, and applying to something wich they believe may just be a pipe dream and you have a barrier for black male lawyers.

I blew over $1500 in the process to get into L.S., and then some more in order to make a choice.  I'm 31, and hardly have that kind of money to blow on a whim.  No one around me believed in my dream untill I started sending applcations at $50 a pop before I got my Test Scores back.  Then someone realized I made up my mind to go, and thought that I may need some moral support.  I'm lucky because I have a highly educated family that is a accustomed to the costs of education.  There are families where to buy a LSAC guide to L.S. for $50 (I forget what I spent) is like cursing god.

Really, I'm moving down the path of what seems like the impossible dream.  Even when I have my J.D. (Yes I said have).  I still have obstacles that the normal white pessimistic attorney has never dreamed of facing.
Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson.

marcusbarnes30

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Re: Shortage of Black Men in Law (Dismal)
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2007, 02:37:16 PM »
But my question is why Law. I don't have any statistics at my immediate disposal, but it really seems as though there are more Black male doctors, MBAs, PHDs and other post graduates than lawyers. Even within my own Frat(we almost 101 years old) I know of only a handful of brothers that aspire to be lawyers and even fewer who are lawyers. Is there something about the practice of law that we as educated Black men are turned off by?? Is it a lack of interest? What?

Actually the answer to this could be somewhat a look into the socio-psychological aspect of it all. Care to explain Pulchy? Why yes, I'm glad you asked ;) (Ok that was corny, but stay with me please).

Think about it, at least in the perception of black males what entity in the United States besides the political entity has been the most unfair and unjust to us? Yes exactly right the LEGAL system. Hold on though, I'm not at all saying that most of the AA men in prison are innocent, but there are more than a few that feel as if they have received a raw deal. There is such an amazing distrust in the law and anything legal that is ingrained in  African-American males that Law School is the furthest away from our minds as far as career opportunities.

The other institutions mentioned don't quite have the same effect on AA men as in law. Yes it's true that some feel that the medical community has no real interest in them, but the consequences of bad health doesn't hold the same emotional bind as spending a significant portion of your life behind bars.

So as a rebuttal one can say "yes Pulchy, I can see your point, but not all black men feel as if their life is leading them on the "prison career path" - (yes one can argue that the disproportionate amount of AA males in prison is almost like it being a career path. BTW that was meant to be tongue in cheek.)- but even amongst the achievers of the AA male community knows of or is related to another black male that in their eyes have been mistreated in the justice system. This leads to distrust in the legal system even with black males who aren't in the system themselves. Also for the achieving AA males that are upstanding citizens they sometimes feel that they are one traffic stop away from being just "anudda nigra"...see Crash the movie.

Basically there is just a general dis-ease about the legal system that African-American males have. Some of it unfounded I will admit, but as we all know sometimes perception is reality. Oh and there is the issue of that LSAT. So from the very few who do aspire to become lawyers, a lot are eliminated from the process because of the test. I'm not gonna go into what is fair and what isn't, I'll just say that the assessment is brutal to African-American males for a variety of reasons, therefore reducing the pool of aspirants even further.

Oh and why doesn't this seem to affect the African-American females as much? That is a very good question, and one of the answers is one of the reasons why I respect black women so much.(Warning this explanation will follow a path of digression). From the overall theory of oppression it seems as if the most efficient way to oppress a group of people is to attack and retard the progression of the leader or head of a particular group. In this case it was the black males. Through humiliation and demasculinization some of the inherent strengths of black males has been tapped. This led to a self replicating and almost indelible cycle of underachieving in the AA male community. Through it all the one pillar of strength and the glue who kept it all together has historically been the black woman. They have been the ones to step up to the plate and hold things down including playing dual roles in the family. So to me at least there is no surprise in seeing African American females doing so well in contrast to African-American males. This is my personal opinion here, but I feel as if the Majority feels less threatened by an upward bound population of black women than an upward bound community of black men, so they are more likely to promote the upward movement of "sisters" over "brothers". Again this is just my opinion.


Cliff Notes version: Basically there is a general uneasiness,distrust, and ignorance in the legal system in the eyes of black males, which could explain the lack of knowledge and interest in attaining legal education or even starting the legal education process.







My opinion about the LSAT is simple, I just don't think we take it as seriously as our white counterparts. White folks and asians approach preparation for the LSAT with a level of somberness and discipline that we typically don't. I know I am generalizing and the evidence I could present would be anecdotal anyway, but I think most would tend to agree. It has always been my contention that if brothers and sisters studied for the LSAT like they studied information when they were pledging (i.e. poems, prior lines,history...etc) we have on average scores in the mid to high 160s. There is no reason in terms of racial bias that person who graduated with 3.5+ gpa (regardless of the major) can't overcome any biases racial or otherwise if they have had the intellectual fortitude and academic discipline to secure a 3.5 at graduation in the first place, bUT WHAT DO I KNOW?

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Re: Shortage of Black Men in Law (Dismal)
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2007, 03:21:43 PM »
I disagree totally.  I think black ppl apprach the LSAT w/ more discipline, assuming that the test is biased.  So I think we approach it differently-  we have a plan and execute it.  Perhaps some of us are overwhelmed by the bias and decide not to take it.   
I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality...  I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word - -Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King

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Re: Shortage of Black Men in Law (Dismal)
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2007, 03:38:18 PM »
I hate to say it but my personal experience would support your hypothesis. Too many of my peers who claimed to want to attend law school didn't even do the research, much less formally study. However, I'm loathe to extrapoliate a generality from my own anctedotal evidence.

Quote
My opinion about the LSAT is simple, I just don't think we take it as seriously as our white counterparts. White folks and asians approach preparation for the LSAT with a level of somberness and discipline that we typically don't. I know I am generalizing and the evidence I could present would be anecdotal anyway, but I think most would tend to agree. It has always been my contention that if brothers and sisters studied for the LSAT like they studied information when they were pledging (i.e. poems, prior lines,history...etc) we have on average scores in the mid to high 160s. There is no reason in terms of racial bias that person who graduated with 3.5+ gpa (regardless of the major) can't overcome any biases racial or otherwise if they have had the intellectual fortitude and academic discipline to secure a 3.5 at graduation in the first place, bUT WHAT DO I KNOW?
I tested between 151 and 162. I hoped for the high end and ended up in the middle. Still, not a bad plan overall, I think.

LSAT: 156 (not taking it again and you can't make me)
GPA: 3.4ish. Still a semester to go
URM, non-trad, 12 yrs work exp, published
Looking for low debt and high aid

marcusbarnes30

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Re: Shortage of Black Men in Law (Dismal)
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2007, 03:53:53 PM »
I hate to say it but my personal experience would support your hypothesis. Too many of my peers who claimed to want to attend law school didn't even do the research, much less formally study. However, I'm loathe to extrapoliate a generality from my own anctedotal evidence.

Quote
My opinion about the LSAT is simple, I just don't think we take it as seriously as our white counterparts. White folks and asians approach preparation for the LSAT with a level of somberness and discipline that we typically don't. I know I am generalizing and the evidence I could present would be anecdotal anyway, but I think most would tend to agree. It has always been my contention that if brothers and sisters studied for the LSAT like they studied information when they were pledging (i.e. poems, prior lines,history...etc) we have on average scores in the mid to high 160s. There is no reason in terms of racial bias that person who graduated with 3.5+ gpa (regardless of the major) can't overcome any biases racial or otherwise if they have had the intellectual fortitude and academic discipline to secure a 3.5 at graduation in the first place, bUT WHAT DO I KNOW?


Thank you.
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that studying for the LSAT is a rather abstract process in comparison to college coursework. Also, 99.99999% of people who make 168 and above have put in a level of committment that most people choose opt of. There are people that study this damn test for a year, some six months and others 3 months 3hours a day. Miss Cuibono I think you would be mistaken to suggest that on average we study for the test with the same amount of intensity as our white and asian counterparts