UT or T14 if you want to stay in Texas?

[Sooner]

While small, the 14-10 schools do offer a placement advantage in Texas.  Is it worth giving up instate tuition (and probably a scholarship on top if you can get into T14)?  Maybe not.

Lets just say, a lot of in-state UTexas students would never have this option. 

It’s tough to see GULC or Cornell having a placement advantage over UT in Texas…if it’s there, it’s tough to measure. Something that negligible isn’t something worth considering. I guess I should have said that some of the top 14 schools probably don’t offer a significant placement advantage over UT. NW and Duke may do a little better…but I think you have to look at HYSCCNMVP for a real difference.

vercingetorix, get down to Texas much? You seem to know so much about it. Let us know when you start your job search. You're as green as anyone else when it comes to securing employment as an attorney. I think your "it's mostly about whom you know" concept is naive, or at the least misapplied as a cliche. More likely, it's mostly about the numbers and your relative position in the class...just as it's always been...just as it was when you applied to law school...because you'll be appealing to strangers for a job. I don't see how going to the large state school makes you so much more familiar to the top employers in the state. They see 300 eager faces when they visit that school and only 20 when they go to a Chicago or Columbia (yes they actually visit those schools too). Nepotism applies to family members, not strangers who went to the same school. Hell, most of the people that go through UT-Law didn't go to UT undergrad...and isn't undergrad where you develop your school pride/loyalty and all that? This is much more sophisticated than you make it sound. These are intelligent people making intelligent choices, not just picking the colors they like best. You have in mind an office of 10 attorneys, all of whom went to UT. I have in mind an office of 200 attorneys from disparate backgrounds and schools that sends people to schools across the country to recruit new attorneys. Yes, that's what really happens. 

Oh, Top-14 & huge debt versus UT & low debt is a false choice. Many people actually get decent scholarships to top-14 schools. 

[Para Legal]

UT hands down, all around.

Especially with in-state tuition.

Texans have a tendency to take care of their own...and UT will set you up nicely in Texas, no matter where you are in the class, BIG MID SMALL law.

Regardless of your career aspirations, go to UT if you want to stay in Texas.

Cheers,

Para 

[botbot]

UT hands down, all around.

Especially with in-state tuition.

Texans have a tendency to take care of their own...and UT will set you up nicely in Texas, no matter where you are in the class, BIG MID SMALL law.

Regardless of your career aspirations, go to UT if you want to stay in Texas.

Cheers,

Para 

Do not listen to this advice.  Please.  In fact, I hope it was a joke.



Cornell sends very few people to Texas (small class feeds NYC) but those that come to Texas place very well.

GTown sends a few more people to Texas than Cornell, but all of them also place in top Texas firms.

Are the top graduates of these school heading to Texas and getting these jobs because they are at the top of their class?  Doubtful but remotely possible.

[vercingetorix]

Sooner, i've never been to TX, in fact as i stated in my (over-long) missive, i live in WI and will be employed here when i graduate.  it will be difficult, barring total failure and incompetence, for me to escape law school without a job.  it is difficult for people who are your friends, who have lived life with you for a while, who like and respect you, who have children growing up with your children, who are partners in large firms, to ignore these facts and not help you get a job.  good luck to you.

[law_dawg_07]

While small, the 14-10 schools do offer a placement advantage in Texas.  Is it worth giving up instate tuition (and probably a scholarship on top if you can get into T14)?  Maybe not.

Lets just say, a lot of in-state UTexas students would never have this option. 

It’s tough to see GULC or Cornell having a placement advantage over UT in Texas…if it’s there, it’s tough to measure. Something that negligible isn’t something worth considering. I guess I should have said that some of the top 14 schools probably don’t offer a significant placement advantage over UT. NW and Duke may do a little better…but I think you have to look at HYSCCNMVP for a real difference.

vercingetorix, get down to Texas much? You seem to know so much about it. Let us know when you start your job search. You're as green as anyone else when it comes to securing employment as an attorney. I think your "it's mostly about whom you know" concept is naive, or at the least misapplied as a cliche. More likely, it's mostly about the numbers and your relative position in the class...just as it's always been...just as it was when you applied to law school...because you'll be appealing to strangers for a job. I don't see how going to the large state school makes you so much more familiar to the top employers in the state. They see 300 eager faces when they visit that school and only 20 when they go to a Chicago or Columbia (yes they actually visit those schools too). Nepotism applies to family members, not strangers who went to the same school. Hell, most of the people that go through UT-Law didn't go to UT undergrad...and isn't undergrad where you develop your school pride/loyalty and all that? This is much more sophisticated than you make it sound. These are intelligent people making intelligent choices, not just picking the colors they like best. You have in mind an office of 10 attorneys, all of whom went to UT. I have in mind an office of 200 attorneys from disparate backgrounds and schools that sends people to schools across the country to recruit new attorneys. Yes, that's what really happens. 

Oh, Top-14 & huge debt versus UT & low debt is a false choice. Many people actually get decent scholarships to top-14 schools. 

Many people actually get decent scholarships to T14's???  Where is your data to support this?  Last time I checked the average school debt for students in T14's was significantly high.  An if that is the AVERAGE, then many people cannot be getting decent scholarships.  That statement in and of itself makes no sense and it is not legitimate.
 

[botbot]

While small, the 14-10 schools do offer a placement advantage in Texas.  Is it worth giving up instate tuition (and probably a scholarship on top if you can get into T14)?  Maybe not.

Lets just say, a lot of in-state UTexas students would never have this option. 

It’s tough to see GULC or Cornell having a placement advantage over UT in Texas…if it’s there, it’s tough to measure. Something that negligible isn’t something worth considering. I guess I should have said that some of the top 14 schools probably don’t offer a significant placement advantage over UT. NW and Duke may do a little better…but I think you have to look at HYSCCNMVP for a real difference.

vercingetorix, get down to Texas much? You seem to know so much about it. Let us know when you start your job search. You're as green as anyone else when it comes to securing employment as an attorney. I think your "it's mostly about whom you know" concept is naive, or at the least misapplied as a cliche. More likely, it's mostly about the numbers and your relative position in the class...just as it's always been...just as it was when you applied to law school...because you'll be appealing to strangers for a job. I don't see how going to the large state school makes you so much more familiar to the top employers in the state. They see 300 eager faces when they visit that school and only 20 when they go to a Chicago or Columbia (yes they actually visit those schools too). Nepotism applies to family members, not strangers who went to the same school. Hell, most of the people that go through UT-Law didn't go to UT undergrad...and isn't undergrad where you develop your school pride/loyalty and all that? This is much more sophisticated than you make it sound. These are intelligent people making intelligent choices, not just picking the colors they like best. You have in mind an office of 10 attorneys, all of whom went to UT. I have in mind an office of 200 attorneys from disparate backgrounds and schools that sends people to schools across the country to recruit new attorneys. Yes, that's what really happens. 

Oh, Top-14 & huge debt versus UT & low debt is a false choice. Many people actually get decent scholarships to top-14 schools. 

Many people actually get decent scholarships to T14's???  Where is your data to support this?  Last time I checked the average school debt for students in T14's was significantly high.  An if that is the AVERAGE, then many people cannot be getting decent scholarships.  That statement in and of itself makes no sense and it is not legitimate.
 

Other than the T3, all schools give out scholarships to attract those that will have other high level choices.  The T14 often has much better LRAP & grant programs than those just outside T14.

[law_dawg_07]

While small, the 14-10 schools do offer a placement advantage in Texas.  Is it worth giving up instate tuition (and probably a scholarship on top if you can get into T14)?  Maybe not.

Lets just say, a lot of in-state UTexas students would never have this option. 

It’s tough to see GULC or Cornell having a placement advantage over UT in Texas…if it’s there, it’s tough to measure. Something that negligible isn’t something worth considering. I guess I should have said that some of the top 14 schools probably don’t offer a significant placement advantage over UT. NW and Duke may do a little better…but I think you have to look at HYSCCNMVP for a real difference.

vercingetorix, get down to Texas much? You seem to know so much about it. Let us know when you start your job search. You're as green as anyone else when it comes to securing employment as an attorney. I think your "it's mostly about whom you know" concept is naive, or at the least misapplied as a cliche. More likely, it's mostly about the numbers and your relative position in the class...just as it's always been...just as it was when you applied to law school...because you'll be appealing to strangers for a job. I don't see how going to the large state school makes you so much more familiar to the top employers in the state. They see 300 eager faces when they visit that school and only 20 when they go to a Chicago or Columbia (yes they actually visit those schools too). Nepotism applies to family members, not strangers who went to the same school. Hell, most of the people that go through UT-Law didn't go to UT undergrad...and isn't undergrad where you develop your school pride/loyalty and all that? This is much more sophisticated than you make it sound. These are intelligent people making intelligent choices, not just picking the colors they like best. You have in mind an office of 10 attorneys, all of whom went to UT. I have in mind an office of 200 attorneys from disparate backgrounds and schools that sends people to schools across the country to recruit new attorneys. Yes, that's what really happens. 

Oh, Top-14 & huge debt versus UT & low debt is a false choice. Many people actually get decent scholarships to top-14 schools. 

Many people actually get decent scholarships to T14's???  Where is your data to support this?  Last time I checked the average school debt for students in T14's was significantly high.  An if that is the AVERAGE, then many people cannot be getting decent scholarships.  That statement in and of itself makes no sense and it is not legitimate.
 

Other than the T3, all schools give out scholarships to attract those that will have other high level choices.  The T14 often has much better LRAP & grant programs than those just outside T14.

Again...where is the evidence?

[dougiefresh]

This is thread is wild.  You have to keep in mind that the comparison b/w UT and T14 is predicated on this person ALREADY HAVING CONNECTIONS TO TX, which is likely the biggest hurdle for out-of-area T14ers.  Quoting general placement statistics obscures the individual's own circumstances.  How strong those connections are depends on the person, and the gap b/w the specific T14 and UT depends on the school itself, as everyone has noted.  That said, the decision comes down to whether or not the additional cost of the T14 compensates for the better placement.  Too many damn variables - this is why I majored in economics, so I could just assume everything.

[MindTheGap76]

You pretty clearly don't know what you're talking about. At all.

actually i present some pretty compelling arguments (debt, the OP's stated goal of living in TX after school, quality of life, alumni network, quality of education difference between UT and T14 schools, etc).  what we have here Mind is a difference of opinion (although you present far fewer pros for going to a T14).  if you read my posts you will also note that i make an exception for some T14 schools (namely the top 5) where i admit the choice might be slightly more agonizing...although i could still make a strong case for choosing UT.  stating someone does not know what they are talking about in light of strong points in support of their view betrays a lack of intellectual flexibility you will find vexing as an attorney.
[/quote]

I gave the accurate assessment of placement differential and said it was up to OP to decide how that differential weighed against things like debt. This was based not only on information given out by current Texas students (on the XO thread linked), but on several conversations I've personally had with the hiring partners of one of Texas's biggest firms, plus meetings with about 10 different attorneys working in-house at places across Texas like Shell Chemical in Houston and Dell Computers in Austin.

I said that you didn't know what you were talking about because the rant I was responding to was inane and useless. I stand by that assessment.

[Para Legal]

UT hands down, all around.

Especially with in-state tuition.

Texans have a tendency to take care of their own...and UT will set you up nicely in Texas, no matter where you are in the class, BIG MID SMALL law.

Regardless of your career aspirations, go to UT if you want to stay in Texas.

Cheers,

Para 

Do not listen to this advice.  Please.  In fact, I hope it was a joke.



Cornell sends very few people to Texas (small class feeds NYC) but those that come to Texas place very well.

GTown sends a few more people to Texas than Cornell, but all of them also place in top Texas firms.

Are the top graduates of these school heading to Texas and getting these jobs because they are at the top of their class?  Doubtful but remotely possible.

Bot,
Why would my advice be bad and/or a joke? I've lived in Texas, I have many friends who are Texans (and attorneys). Your statement seems to insinuate that Cornell and GULC grads who can't "hack it" or get a job in DC or NYC BIGlaw would "settle" for a biglaw job in Houston or Dallas-as if the one were inherently more prestigious than another, or that the T14 is sending its bottom 10% on down to Houston.

I was simply stating that, amongst the Texas schools, a UT law degree carries the most gravitas, and is very likely to get you in the door in Texas just as well as a T14. Of course, the individual markets in Texas are dominated by their respective "home schools" (Houston: UH/STCL, Dallas: SMU/Baylor) but UT has the most portability overall.

OP- go where you feel you will be most happy. If you are a Texan and want to practice in Texas, the logical conclusion in my mind would be to go to UT. If you have a good network and want to go away to school and come back and practice, more power to you- just make sure you keep up your contacts back home.

UT vs. a T14 is still a blessed choice, no matter which way you go.

Cheers,

Para