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Author Topic: Black Conservatives  (Read 16959 times)

Captain

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Re: Black Conservatives
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2007, 10:54:38 AM »
I worked hard to get where I am, so my salary should be commensurate with my hard work.  Thank you and good night.

I'm an ardent capitalist as well, but that's a very  big should.  Capitalism  (as implemented IRL) is not perfect.  Also, salaries in capitalist societies rarely reflect "hard work".  They reflect the supply/demand of the services desired (ie: doctors are highly valued and generally rare, so they're paid a lot.  Janitors are also highly valued, but there are many more people who can do a janitor's job, so they're paid substantially less).{/quote]

Salaries don't reflect hard work, they reflect the value of work, and also compensate people for pursing additional qualifications. Hard work is rewarded in those who work to innovate and lead. The man who invents the telephone (Graham Bell), ends up filthy rich. It also rewards the plumber who works more hours...

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Also, soldiers work hard every day, probably harder than most, but are paid a paltry salary because there are a lot of them and because there is normally a steady supply of would-be soldiers.  When the supply started to dwindle after the war in Iraq, what did the Pentagon do to attract more recruits?  Raised salaries/bonuses/benefits.  

There aren't a lot of officers though. Officers require more education and training, but they're still paid crap compared to people of their education level in industry. The military is a perfect example of government control's affect on wages.
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bamf

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Re: Black Conservatives
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2007, 10:57:19 AM »


2) The middle class is being dismantled? Are you sure? Come to NJ, we're ALLL middle-class here.


a little busy so I can't completely respond right now, but let me just say
THIS IS THE PROBLEM!
I know plenty of people in Jersey, they all drive nice cars and have expensive clothes and shoes, etc. ... that is not middle class.  Just because everyone around you has the same *&^%, that doesn't mean you are middle class.  Middle class is somewhere between what you find in the 'burbs of Jersey has and what you find in the inner city ... decent jobs (that you don't necessarily need a 4 year college education for) that allow people to make a decent living, support their family, take a vacation once in a while.  Middle class is not a McMansion, 3 SUVs and a pool.  That is upper class.  Unfortunately the McMansion looks like middle class because America has created the hyper-upper class.
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DDBY

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Re: Black Conservatives
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2007, 10:57:32 AM »
I love capitalism.  I love the fact that anyone can enter this country with not a penny to his name and with hardwork, and good fortune make a decent living.  It's flaws are what make it so appealing.  The shareholders are not some unknown shadowy figure behing a curtain.  The Shareholders are the workers the pension holders, everyone with a 401(k).  If you open a savings account at a commercial bank you participate in the markets to get your interest.  Not only is this a system run by the people but it is completely voluntary.  If you don't invest you don't have to be involved. Corporations are not just moved by the shareholder they are also moved by the stakeholders.  Competition in a capitalist society requires thate each participant maintain a positive image.  Public Activism effects public/private industry, as much as it effects government.  Just ask Imus how his masters reacted when his activities started to reflect negatively on thier image.



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Re: Black Conservatives
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2007, 10:58:11 AM »
...Perhaps it is because Socialism, in practice, amounts to half-assed communism, and like communism, it fails in most of the places it is instituted.

Well, I think we both know there's no strictly capitalist countries just like there's no strictly socialist countries out there. Even America is a mixed system, albeit quite far to the capitalist side. Literally every country in the world employs a governmental strategy that is more socialist than America, and you know what - the rest of the world isn't falling to pieces, like you claim it is. We're doing pretty good. I'd argue better than Americans on average.

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You didn't ask me a question, so I'll ask it: Why should I believe that the government controlling the economy would be a good thing?
I did actually, and this was it; Do you generally believe billionaire shareholders to be more ethical and just in their control of America than the politicians would be?

However, I'd gladly answer your question. You should trust the government more than the CEOs, because the government might at least have a tiny bit of interest in the welfare of the general people, where at the CEOs only motivation is income, profit and share value.

It's a question because IT ASKS FOR YOUR OPINION AND THERE'S A QUESTION MARK AT THE END OF IT

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1) The corporations control nothing. PEOPLE control the corporations, and not just the owners, also the consumers. Remember the poisoned dog-food scandal a few months ago? It wasn't the CEO of ALPO who was outraged, it was the owner of Fido. No more deadly dog-food... Also, Imus was fired because Al Sharpton organized radio listeners. Corporations are pushovers.

Do you think they stopped the food because they love Fido too much, or do you think they stopped it because they were about to get assraped with both criminal and civil law suits if they kept it going? If you think people control corporations, you're a bigger fool than I ever imagined. Remember Enron?


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3) Socialism is, in practice, not ever the complete control of the economy, but usually the government manages to create more than it's share of harmful monopolies. Also the wealth re-distribution schemes are more likely to create a large lower-class and shrink the middle-class  than capitalism, IMHO. British Socialism killed industry in the UK, and still has lasting effects today.

The problem with this is that you see it as a black and white scenario, you're either capitalist or you're socialist, which isn't the case, even in America. MediCare is a socialistic system etc. And socialism didn't kill industry in the UK, incompetent leadership did. UK is still a way more socialist country than the US is, and they're doing good. We (Norway) are several steps further towards socialist (a few more than I'd prefer actually), and we do extremely well. This is also the situation most over the world.

Soviet failed because they tried to apply the extremist version of it, just like the US would go down the drain if they tried to apply an extremist version of capitalism.

And you need to realize you're educating yourself to be working class. The better paid half of it, certainly but as a lawyer you'll never be in the upper echelon who reap the benefits of an extremist capitalist society.

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Re: Black Conservatives
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2007, 10:59:41 AM »
I worked hard to get where I am, so my salary should be commensurate with my hard work.  Thank you and good night.

I'm an ardent capitalist as well, but that's a very  big should.  Capitalism  (as implemented IRL) is not perfect.  Also, salaries in capitalist societies rarely reflect "hard work".  They reflect the supply/demand of the services desired (ie: doctors are highly valued and generally rare, so they're paid a lot.  Janitors are also highly valued, but there are many more people who can do a janitor's job, so they're paid substantially less).

Salaries don't reflect hard work, they reflect the value of work, and also compensate people for pursing additional qualifications. Hard work is rewarded in those who work to innovate and lead. The man who invents the telephone (Graham Bell), ends up filthy rich. It also rewards the plumber who works more hours...

Quote
Also, soldiers work hard every day, probably harder than most, but are paid a paltry salary because there are a lot of them and because there is normally a steady supply of would-be soldiers.  When the supply started to dwindle after the war in Iraq, what did the Pentagon do to attract more recruits?  Raised salaries/bonuses/benefits.  

There aren't a lot of officers though. Officers require more education and training, but they're still paid crap compared to people of their education level in industry. The military is a perfect example of government control's affect on wages.

That's true, officers do get paid crap, though that's because there's still an availabile supply of people willing to be officers.  Also, the military is tricky since so many soldiers and officers live on-base in subsidized or completely free housing, so their CoL's are much lower than if they were living off-base tending to their own expenses.  
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Re: Black Conservatives
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2007, 11:04:13 AM »
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The military is a perfect example of government control's affect on wages.

Not at all, the military is a perfect example of many people willing to put something above the bottom line on their paychecks when choosing employment. Every single officer with combat experience could get five times their army salary by signing up for a private contractor, private security companies etc, but they make the choice to stay in the Army because they believe in what they do and the cause they have dedicated their life to.

DDBY

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Re: Black Conservatives
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2007, 11:10:52 AM »
The problem with this is that you see it as a black and white scenario, you're either capitalist or you're socialist, which isn't the case, even in America. MediCare is a socialistic system etc. And socialism didn't kill industry in the UK, incompetent leadership did. UK is still a way more socialist country than the US is, and they're doing good. We (Norway) are several steps further towards socialist (a few more than I'd prefer actually), and we do extremely well. This is also the situation most over the world.

Soviet failed because they tried to apply the extremist version of it, just like the US would go down the drain if they tried to apply an extremist version of capitalism.

And you need to realize you're educating yourself to be working class. The better paid half of it, certainly but as a lawyer you'll never be in the upper echelon who reap the benefits of an extremist capitalist society.
He's got a point.  Due to the human factor we can't have an effective system with out a little soocial welfare.  There are always those who cannot compete for physical, mental, or historically social reasons.  That is what I was implying when I stated (to the effect) That at times The government needs to intervene.

Lawyers have always been in the middle class. To reach the top Youl will need to Join the Military, Go to business School and then conquer something (like Fidel).  A 100% capitalist society would look something like the feudal life in the middle ages. Or closer to the enlightenment days.

The F-cktard Express

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Re: Black Conservatives
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2007, 11:11:53 AM »

I'm so glad you blindly cling to the 20th Century version of Communism.  Oh pray tell NYU man, who first wrote about the theory of Communism then?

PS...I studied both Government and History in college. 

f-ing hell. These things never exist in their pure, original forms. No ideology. None.

If you actually studied history, as you say you did, you'd know that. htfh.

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Re: Black Conservatives
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2007, 11:13:07 AM »
Truth! I don't really think anyone wants that, well nobody intelligent enough to listen to anyway. I certainly do not consider myself a socialist either, but there are things that would benefit from a bit more socialist attitude. Health care comes to mind, keeping people alive and healthy should be a basic ambition for any civilized country.

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Re: Black Conservatives
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2007, 11:17:06 AM »
Health care comes to mind, keeping people alive and healthy should be a basic ambition for any civilized country.

I agree, which is why I oppose Nationalized/Socialized Heathcare.
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