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Author Topic: Toledo vs. Cleveland Marshall  (Read 1576 times)

Aaron10

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Toledo vs. Cleveland Marshall
« on: May 22, 2007, 02:31:05 PM »
Accepted into Toledo's transitional program and full-time day at Cleveland-Marshall

I understand that both of these schools are quite regional, and I would opt to live in Cleveland over Toledo.  Considering Toledo's recent rise in the USNEWS rankings into the top 100, would this be a better choice?  Will five years after practicing law make it any easier to move out of state, at either school? I expect to work hard as a lawyer, and wish to make the best salary possible to compensate me in this field. These "rankings" have provided much confusion for me.  I guess one of the only reason I would go to Toledo is because it is ranked in the top 100, based on the advice, "go to the highest ranked school you can get in to."  I would appreciate any advice or comment on these two schools. Thanks.

nontrad82

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Re: Toledo vs. Cleveland Marshall
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2007, 05:17:50 PM »
I am going to Toledo.  I chose them after visiting several schools where I was accepted.  You should visit both schools if possible, and speak with faculty members, current students, and check out the facilities and resources.

keepitsimple

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Re: Toledo vs. Cleveland Marshall
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2007, 07:03:51 PM »
I am headed to Toledo as well. I visited both schools and although I like the cleveland area better I liked toledo as a law school better. I would not pay too much attention to the rankings for your decision. Cleveland State places in cleveland and from what I am told so does U.Toledo. I would look past the rankings and look at what school fits you best. I want to work for the good guys and Toledo has a prosecutors clinic as well as an honors prosecutor program from what I understand. That as what drew me to Toledo. I feel either school will place in Cleveland. Just one mans opinion though

Also price is similiar but the COL in toledo is a bit cheaper and you can live close to the school. The girl that gave me the tour at Cleveland state said most people commute from at least 15 minuts away. I am living three minuts away from the College of Law at U.Toledo next year in a safe and nice neighborhood

Rule of Reason

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Re: Toledo vs. Cleveland Marshall
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2007, 11:00:37 PM »
i think if you look at Toledo's lsat numbers, in spite of their recent rise in rank, they are still UNDER-RATED.  I almost applied there just for kicks, they have that whole institute on the water crisis between US and Canada -- not a deciding factor but cool stuff...

Also, I'd make sure you tell ppl you interview with (assuming this is a valid statement and they ask about your school choice) that if you look at the scores, Toledo is as strong as Case Western.  If they laugh, its probably b/c they're a dinosaur.


note: I'm from another city / don't know the region too well.

platopotato

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Re: Toledo vs. Cleveland Marshall
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2007, 12:47:15 AM »
i think if you look at Toledo's lsat numbers, in spite of their recent rise in rank, they are still UNDER-RATED.  I almost applied there just for kicks, they have that whole institute on the water crisis between US and Canada -- not a deciding factor but cool stuff...

Also, I'd make sure you tell ppl you interview with (assuming this is a valid statement and they ask about your school choice) that if you look at the scores, Toledo is as strong as Case Western.  If they laugh, its probably b/c they're a dinosaur.


note: I'm from another city / don't know the region too well.

I have not heard very many people claim that Toledo is under-rated. These statistics are from the USNews online 2008 edition:

Attrition Rates for 2005-2006 Full- and Part-time Students
Percent of students discontinuing law school:
- First-year students: 14.4%
- Second-year students: 2.1%
- Third-year students: 1.6%

African-American: 2.7%
American Indian: 0.4%
Asian-American: 1.9%
Mexican-American: 0.0%
Puerto Rican: 0.0%
Other Hispanic-American: 2.5%
White: 63.9%
International: 0.0%
Unknown: 28.6%

Starting Salaries (2005 Graduates Employed Full-time)
Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $50,000 - $80,000
Median in the private sector: $60,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 55%
Median in public service: $40,000

   Law firms: 49%
   Business/industry (legal): 8%
   Business/industry (nonlegal): 8%
   Government: 20%
   Public interest: 3%
   Judicial clerkship: 2%
   Academia: 3%
   Unknown: 7%

Fall 2006 enrollment:
Full time: 74 students: LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 155-160
Part time: 116 students: LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 151-155

Peer assessment score (5.0 highest): 2
Assessment score by lawyers/judges (5.0 highest): 2.4

I think they are the only school with more part time students admitted than full time. They probably do this because they know USNews only calculates the average of full time students in their ranking. Notice that only 55% reported their salary and 7% are working in unknown/star bucks.

14% attrition for first year students? I'm sure this is partly due to the fact that Toledo's scholarships require you to be in the top 25% of your class. Also, they have a reputation for making it very difficult for out of state students to become classified as in-state. I think all of the other schools in Ohio are much more lenient in letting their students become classified as in-state.

Toledo does have an impressive 85% employed at graduation. However, given these stats, I wonder if that isn't fluffed up. Perhaps they get their students temp jobs just so they can report they are employed at graduation?

I don't think Toledo is a bad school, I was seriously considering going there myself. In the end I decided it wasn't worth the money they offered me because if I lost my scholarship I would instantly take 50k+ of debt.

Rule of Reason

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Re: Toledo vs. Cleveland Marshall
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2007, 01:03:50 AM »
i think if you look at Toledo's lsat numbers, in spite of their recent rise in rank, they are still UNDER-RATED.  I almost applied there just for kicks, they have that whole institute on the water crisis between US and Canada -- not a deciding factor but cool stuff...

Also, I'd make sure you tell ppl you interview with (assuming this is a valid statement and they ask about your school choice) that if you look at the scores, Toledo is as strong as Case Western.  If they laugh, its probably b/c they're a dinosaur.


note: I'm from another city / don't know the region too well.

I have not heard very many people claim that Toledo is under-rated. These statistics are from the USNews online 2008 edition:

Attrition Rates for 2005-2006 Full- and Part-time Students
Percent of students discontinuing law school:
- First-year students: 14.4%
- Second-year students: 2.1%
- Third-year students: 1.6%

African-American: 2.7%
American Indian: 0.4%
Asian-American: 1.9%
Mexican-American: 0.0%
Puerto Rican: 0.0%
Other Hispanic-American: 2.5%
White: 63.9%
International: 0.0%
Unknown: 28.6%

Starting Salaries (2005 Graduates Employed Full-time)
Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $50,000 - $80,000
Median in the private sector: $60,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 55%
Median in public service: $40,000

   Law firms: 49%
   Business/industry (legal): 8%
   Business/industry (nonlegal): 8%
   Government: 20%
   Public interest: 3%
   Judicial clerkship: 2%
   Academia: 3%
   Unknown: 7%

Fall 2006 enrollment:
Full time: 74 students: LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 155-160
Part time: 116 students: LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 151-155

Peer assessment score (5.0 highest): 2
Assessment score by lawyers/judges (5.0 highest): 2.4

I think they are the only school with more part time students admitted than full time. They probably do this because they know USNews only calculates the average of full time students in their ranking. Notice that only 55% reported their salary and 7% are working in unknown/star bucks.

14% attrition for first year students? I'm sure this is partly due to the fact that Toledo's scholarships require you to be in the top 25% of your class. Also, they have a reputation for making it very difficult for out of state students to become classified as in-state. I think all of the other schools in Ohio are much more lenient in letting their students become classified as in-state.

Toledo does have an impressive 85% employed at graduation. However, given these stats, I wonder if that isn't fluffed up. Perhaps they get their students temp jobs just so they can report they are employed at graduation?

I don't think Toledo is a bad school, I was seriously considering going there myself. In the end I decided it wasn't worth the money they offered me because if I lost my scholarship I would instantly take 50k+ of debt.


I guess my point was, although Case (to my understanding) has really good name-brand recognition, and resulting access to some great jobs/ good-looking salary figures, a school like Toledo seems to have similar lsat #'s (w/o looking I think Case's mid 50% is 157-161?)

But it was the PT thing i didn't know about--- wow.

You're def. right about the employment thing... flipping burgers = "employment". Nuff said.

As far as scholarships go, yeah I turned down the schools (DePaul, Kent) that had tough requirements like that.

Maybe I'm over-zealous in trying to patronize the "up 'n comers"

whatev they are still a good school, but I don't know Ohio very well--- good luck op, thanks for clarification plato...

Aaron10

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Re: Toledo vs. Cleveland Marshall
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2007, 01:56:41 PM »
This is all great stuff...I appreciate all the info on Toledo in response to my first post on this board.  I believe I will most likely end up at UT in the fall. Just to balance things out if possible, is there anyone who has chosen CM over Toledo? Why? Any reasons other than just wanting to attend law school in Cleveland? Additionally, anyone else accepted to the transitional program at UT?  Thanks again.

TrashCat

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Re: Toledo vs. Cleveland Marshall
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2007, 03:08:17 PM »
This is all great stuff...I appreciate all the info on Toledo in response to my first post on this board.  I believe I will most likely end up at UT in the fall. Just to balance things out if possible, is there anyone who has chosen CM over Toledo? Why? Any reasons other than just wanting to attend law school in Cleveland? Additionally, anyone else accepted to the transitional program at UT?  Thanks again.

I was going to goto CM over toledo. At CM i just "felt" better, I got kinda a depressed vibe off toledo and whatnot, but that could have just been me. Plus CM's library is gorgeous.

At our tour (I was there when Scalia visited) the adcom told us that about 1/2 the incoming class was the reduced class option...

But this was all just kinda my feeling of it. From what ive heard, off-hand of course, toledo has more portability within Ohio and CM grads are set in Cleveland but its hard for them to get out of the area.

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Re: Toledo vs. Cleveland Marshall
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2007, 03:12:24 PM »
i think if you look at Toledo's lsat numbers, in spite of their recent rise in rank, they are still UNDER-RATED.  I almost applied there just for kicks, they have that whole institute on the water crisis between US and Canada -- not a deciding factor but cool stuff...

Also, I'd make sure you tell ppl you interview with (assuming this is a valid statement and they ask about your school choice) that if you look at the scores, Toledo is as strong as Case Western.  If they laugh, its probably b/c they're a dinosaur.


note: I'm from another city / don't know the region too well.

I have not heard very many people claim that Toledo is under-rated. These statistics are from the USNews online 2008 edition:

Attrition Rates for 2005-2006 Full- and Part-time Students
Percent of students discontinuing law school:
- First-year students: 14.4%
- Second-year students: 2.1%
- Third-year students: 1.6%

African-American: 2.7%
American Indian: 0.4%
Asian-American: 1.9%
Mexican-American: 0.0%
Puerto Rican: 0.0%
Other Hispanic-American: 2.5%
White: 63.9%
International: 0.0%
Unknown: 28.6%

Starting Salaries (2005 Graduates Employed Full-time)
Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $50,000 - $80,000
Median in the private sector: $60,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 55%
Median in public service: $40,000

   Law firms: 49%
   Business/industry (legal): 8%
   Business/industry (nonlegal): 8%
   Government: 20%
   Public interest: 3%
   Judicial clerkship: 2%
   Academia: 3%
   Unknown: 7%

Fall 2006 enrollment:
Full time: 74 students: LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 155-160
Part time: 116 students: LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 151-155

Peer assessment score (5.0 highest): 2
Assessment score by lawyers/judges (5.0 highest): 2.4

I think they are the only school with more part time students admitted than full time. They probably do this because they know USNews only calculates the average of full time students in their ranking. Notice that only 55% reported their salary and 7% are working in unknown/star bucks.

14% attrition for first year students? I'm sure this is partly due to the fact that Toledo's scholarships require you to be in the top 25% of your class. Also, they have a reputation for making it very difficult for out of state students to become classified as in-state. I think all of the other schools in Ohio are much more lenient in letting their students become classified as in-state.

Toledo does have an impressive 85% employed at graduation. However, given these stats, I wonder if that isn't fluffed up. Perhaps they get their students temp jobs just so they can report they are employed at graduation?

I don't think Toledo is a bad school, I was seriously considering going there myself. In the end I decided it wasn't worth the money they offered me because if I lost my scholarship I would instantly take 50k+ of debt.

Bingo. UT is not a bad school, but their rankings are fluffed up quite a bit because most students are part-time.

keepitsimple

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Re: Toledo vs. Cleveland Marshall
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2007, 11:02:53 PM »
i think if you look at Toledo's lsat numbers, in spite of their recent rise in rank, they are still UNDER-RATED.  I almost applied there just for kicks, they have that whole institute on the water crisis between US and Canada -- not a deciding factor but cool stuff...

Also, I'd make sure you tell ppl you interview with (assuming this is a valid statement and they ask about your school choice) that if you look at the scores, Toledo is as strong as Case Western.  If they laugh, its probably b/c they're a dinosaur.


note: I'm from another city / don't know the region too well.

I have not heard very many people claim that Toledo is under-rated. These statistics are from the USNews online 2008 edition:

Attrition Rates for 2005-2006 Full- and Part-time Students
Percent of students discontinuing law school:
- First-year students: 14.4%
- Second-year students: 2.1%
- Third-year students: 1.6%

African-American: 2.7%
American Indian: 0.4%
Asian-American: 1.9%
Mexican-American: 0.0%
Puerto Rican: 0.0%
Other Hispanic-American: 2.5%
White: 63.9%
International: 0.0%
Unknown: 28.6%

Starting Salaries (2005 Graduates Employed Full-time)
Private sector (25th-75th percentile): $50,000 - $80,000
Median in the private sector: $60,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information: 55%
Median in public service: $40,000

   Law firms: 49%
   Business/industry (legal): 8%
   Business/industry (nonlegal): 8%
   Government: 20%
   Public interest: 3%
   Judicial clerkship: 2%
   Academia: 3%
   Unknown: 7%

Fall 2006 enrollment:
Full time: 74 students: LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 155-160
Part time: 116 students: LSAT scores (25th-75th percentile) 151-155

Peer assessment score (5.0 highest): 2
Assessment score by lawyers/judges (5.0 highest): 2.4

I think they are the only school with more part time students admitted than full time. They probably do this because they know USNews only calculates the average of full time students in their ranking. Notice that only 55% reported their salary and 7% are working in unknown/star bucks.

14% attrition for first year students? I'm sure this is partly due to the fact that Toledo's scholarships require you to be in the top 25% of your class. Also, they have a reputation for making it very difficult for out of state students to become classified as in-state. I think all of the other schools in Ohio are much more lenient in letting their students become classified as in-state.

Toledo does have an impressive 85% employed at graduation. However, given these stats, I wonder if that isn't fluffed up. Perhaps they get their students temp jobs just so they can report they are employed at graduation?

I don't think Toledo is a bad school, I was seriously considering going there myself. In the end I decided it wasn't worth the money they offered me because if I lost my scholarship I would instantly take 50k+ of debt.

Bingo. UT is not a bad school, but their rankings are fluffed up quite a bit because most students are part-time.


Remember though (and I really don't care much for them) that the rankings are not just based on the incoming lsat and gpa but also other things like their bar pass and employment percentage...