Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Poll

Are stay-at-home mothers with  graduate degrees conscientious caretakers or the downfall of equality in the workforce?

Educated stay-at-home mothers raise educated kids, benefiting society
 28 (35.4%)
Mothers should work part-time if possible
 10 (12.7%)
Mothers should be full-time 3-6 months after birth
 6 (7.6%)
Anything less than full-time is a detriment to all women and society
 5 (6.3%)
Doesn't affect society or equality either way
 30 (38%)

Total Members Voted: 79

Author Topic: The Mommy Wars for J.D.s  (Read 15489 times)

t...

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Re: The Mommy Wars for J.D.s
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2007, 02:07:32 AM »

"Nurture" plays as important of a role in the development of a human being as "nature" (the latter provides the frame, while the former fills it in).  As a parent, I believe it is my responsibility not only to raise a child (in the physical sense), but also to place it in society in an informed state.  This state includes everything from knowing basic taboos (and why or why not one should pay attention to them) to avoiding pejorative ignorance.

If I can raise an informed child, I can curb ignorance.  If I can curb ignorance, I can affect a number of societal ills.  It is key to note that these ills cannot be eliminated before such forms of pejorative ignorance are not also eliminated.  As such, spending a large amount of time with my children is a benefit to society.  Maybe not a gazillion hours, but enough to play a central role in their lives. 

Yes, I am assuming my values are correct.  Yes, I may be wrong.  That still doesn't relinquish me from the weight of that responsibility.


Once again I agree, and this is a very eloquent, thought out response.

I might actually copy it and give it to a few people I know ;)
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Huey on February 07, 2007, 11:15:32 PM

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mugatu

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Re: The Mommy Wars for J.D.s
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2007, 02:13:09 AM »

"Nurture" plays as important of a role in the development of a human being as "nature" (the latter provides the frame, while the former fills it in).  As a parent, I believe it is my responsibility not only to raise a child (in the physical sense), but also to place it in society in an informed state.  This state includes everything from knowing basic taboos (and why or why not one should pay attention to them) to avoiding pejorative ignorance.

If I can raise an informed child, I can curb ignorance.  If I can curb ignorance, I can affect a number of societal ills.  It is key to note that these ills cannot be eliminated before such forms of pejorative ignorance are not also eliminated.  As such, spending a large amount of time with my children is a benefit to society.  Maybe not a gazillion hours, but enough to play a central role in their lives. 

Yes, I am assuming my values are correct.  Yes, I may be wrong.  That still doesn't relinquish me from the weight of that responsibility.


Are those things really day-to-day activities?  Really?



Yes.  Although that wasn't part of my argument.  I'm just showing why there's a societal benefit to personally raising your children.

You didn't grow up with any younger siblings, did you?



I did not, no.  Why?

I agree that all of those things are important, but I don't think I learned things from my parents on a day-to-day basis, and (contrary to current opinion, perhaps) learned right and wrong, customs, work ethic (the law review paper would laugh at that, since I'm still on the first paragraph, though), etc.

I also had a very nice "nanny" (read: closer to permanent babysitter) who helped as well.  I'm sure I picked things up from her as well as my parents, but that's because my parents picked someone who had good values.  This is the same as hanging out with my own parents.
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road

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Re: The Mommy Wars for J.D.s
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2007, 02:16:51 AM »

I don't think you can reasonably expect someone to interpret the word nurture as to "make sure that children don't die in their day-to-day activities." Again, I find it hard to try to follow your chain of reasoning without getting the impression that you are belittling the role of parent.

The day to day activity of a parent is little more than that, though.  On a grander scale, parenting becomes far more important as a parent notes lessons to be taught and morals to be learned.

BS keeping a child alive is pretty easy. Keeping that child physically healthy is just a little trickier. The hard part of parenting is developing trust between parent and child. It is creating an environment that fosters an optimistic worldview. It is making sure the child's innate creativity is not snuffed out. It is instilling ethics and charity. I know it sounds maybe a bit too romantic but honestly THAT is 90% of the day to day activity of any committed parent. Those kinds of positive attributes are developed bit by bit over years and not in some grand lecture when the kid turns 16.

Mugatu are you, or have you ever been, a parent? Or are you just making this stuff up?

Quote
Quote
You're right, I think I did read too much into your statement here. I also think your rule of thumb is difficult to put into practice. The trouble is assessing value. Of course you can let the market do the valuation and compare your potential earnings against the cost of hiring a nanny. But most parents will value their own parenting time as more valuable (and less quantifiable) than the $10 an hour or so it costs to hire a nanny, and rightly so. And of course there is unquantifiable value in the career. So now the value comparison becomes very individual and we can have the strange case of a parent with the potential to earn $100 an hour choosing to stay home while another parent chooses to make $7 at a retail outlet while hiring then nanny at $10. And both parents may feel perfectly justified in their decision.

Perhaps, but only if the decisions are made emotionally.

Oh, the horror! ::)
IANAL...Y

jimfoolery

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Re: The Mommy Wars for J.D.s
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2007, 02:17:17 AM »

No, it's the opposite.  I attempted to respond directly to your post.  If those personal preferences are NOT societal pressures in nature, then they may be considered.

Oh good, that's somewhat better then.  How much weight to they have?  Assuming the family can afford it with relative ease, at what point does a desire, a simple desire to stay home with one's kids, trump everything else? 

Wouldn't you be obligated to donate all of your money to cancer research and get a damn job in this scenario?
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mugatu

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Re: The Mommy Wars for J.D.s
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2007, 02:18:43 AM »

No, it's the opposite.  I attempted to respond directly to your post.  If those personal preferences are NOT societal pressures in nature, then they may be considered.

Oh good, that's somewhat better then.  How much weight to they have?  Assuming the family can afford it with relative ease, at what point does a desire, a simple desire to stay home with one's kids, trump everything else? 

It would trump career (and the hypo trumps money) so it would have to trump societal benefit.  You could do this pretty easily as well.
Let me show you Derelicte. It is a fashion, a way of life inspired by the very homeless, the vagrants, the crack whores that make this wonderful city so unique.

They're break-dance fighting.

Astro

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Re: The Mommy Wars for J.D.s
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2007, 02:19:52 AM »

"Nurture" plays as important of a role in the development of a human being as "nature" (the latter provides the frame, while the former fills it in).  As a parent, I believe it is my responsibility not only to raise a child (in the physical sense), but also to place it in society in an informed state.  This state includes everything from knowing basic taboos (and why or why not one should pay attention to them) to avoiding pejorative ignorance.

If I can raise an informed child, I can curb ignorance.  If I can curb ignorance, I can affect a number of societal ills.  It is key to note that these ills cannot be eliminated before such forms of pejorative ignorance are not also eliminated.  As such, spending a large amount of time with my children is a benefit to society.  Maybe not a gazillion hours, but enough to play a central role in their lives. 

Yes, I am assuming my values are correct.  Yes, I may be wrong.  That still doesn't relinquish me from the weight of that responsibility.


Are those things really day-to-day activities?  Really?



Yes.  Although that wasn't part of my argument.  I'm just showing why there's a societal benefit to personally raising your children.

You didn't grow up with any younger siblings, did you?



I did not, no.  Why?

I agree that all of those things are important, but I don't think I learned things from my parents on a day-to-day basis, and (contrary to current opinion, perhaps) learned right and wrong, customs, work ethic (the law review paper would laugh at that, since I'm still on the first paragraph, though), etc.

I also had a very nice "nanny" (read: closer to permanent babysitter) who helped as well.  I'm sure I picked things up from her as well as my parents, but that's because my parents picked someone who had good values.  This is the same as hanging out with my own parents.


Not the same, necessarily, but approximates it.  Either way, it's up to the individual to determine how much of a risk it is to trust a stranger's values.  For some, it's not an issue at all.  Other are control freaks, like me.

I asked about siblings because if you'd helped raise a sibling in any way, the whole day-to-day thing would seem a little more obvious.
J, if you didn't bring enough penis for everyone, you shouldn't have brought any penis at all. 

mugatu

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Re: The Mommy Wars for J.D.s
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2007, 02:23:15 AM »

I don't think you can reasonably expect someone to interpret the word nurture as to "make sure that children don't die in their day-to-day activities." Again, I find it hard to try to follow your chain of reasoning without getting the impression that you are belittling the role of parent.

The day to day activity of a parent is little more than that, though.  On a grander scale, parenting becomes far more important as a parent notes lessons to be taught and morals to be learned.

BS keeping a child alive is pretty easy. Keeping that child physically healthy is just a little trickier. The hard part of parenting is developing trust between parent and child. It is creating an environment that fosters an optimistic worldview. It is making sure the child's innate creativity is not snuffed out. It is instilling ethics and charity. I know it sounds maybe a bit too romantic but honestly THAT is 90% of the day to day activity of any committed parent. Those kinds of positive attributes are developed bit by bit over years and not in some grand lecture when the kid turns 16.

Mugatu are you, or have you ever been, a parent? Or are you just making this stuff up?

I have parents,and have witnessed different parenting styles, but I have not been a parent.  You have misinterpreted my statement.  I did not say that all education occurs at one lecture.  I said that education occurs on a grander scale than day-to-day activity.  Week-to-week, if you will.  Perhaps month-to-month.  Even maybe evening-to-evening. 

Quote
Quote
Quote
You're right, I think I did read too much into your statement here. I also think your rule of thumb is difficult to put into practice. The trouble is assessing value. Of course you can let the market do the valuation and compare your potential earnings against the cost of hiring a nanny. But most parents will value their own parenting time as more valuable (and less quantifiable) than the $10 an hour or so it costs to hire a nanny, and rightly so. And of course there is unquantifiable value in the career. So now the value comparison becomes very individual and we can have the strange case of a parent with the potential to earn $100 an hour choosing to stay home while another parent chooses to make $7 at a retail outlet while hiring then nanny at $10. And both parents may feel perfectly justified in their decision.

Perhaps, but only if the decisions are made emotionally.

Oh, the horror! ::)

It's wasteful.
Let me show you Derelicte. It is a fashion, a way of life inspired by the very homeless, the vagrants, the crack whores that make this wonderful city so unique.

They're break-dance fighting.

mugatu

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Re: The Mommy Wars for J.D.s
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2007, 02:24:52 AM »

No, it's the opposite.  I attempted to respond directly to your post.  If those personal preferences are NOT societal pressures in nature, then they may be considered.

Oh good, that's somewhat better then.  How much weight to they have?  Assuming the family can afford it with relative ease, at what point does a desire, a simple desire to stay home with one's kids, trump everything else? 

It would trump career (and the hypo trumps money) so it would have to trump societal benefit.  You could do this pretty easily as well.

So you aren't really a hardliner at all, you were just making a point?

Yes, but I would still consider that person incredibly lazy if they aren't doing something else.  So...
Let me show you Derelicte. It is a fashion, a way of life inspired by the very homeless, the vagrants, the crack whores that make this wonderful city so unique.

They're break-dance fighting.

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Re: The Mommy Wars for J.D.s
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2007, 02:25:39 AM »

I don't think you can reasonably expect someone to interpret the word nurture as to "make sure that children don't die in their day-to-day activities." Again, I find it hard to try to follow your chain of reasoning without getting the impression that you are belittling the role of parent.

The day to day activity of a parent is little more than that, though.  On a grander scale, parenting becomes far more important as a parent notes lessons to be taught and morals to be learned.

BS keeping a child alive is pretty easy. Keeping that child physically healthy is just a little trickier. The hard part of parenting is developing trust between parent and child. It is creating an environment that fosters an optimistic worldview. It is making sure the child's innate creativity is not snuffed out. It is instilling ethics and charity. I know it sounds maybe a bit too romantic but honestly THAT is 90% of the day to day activity of any committed parent. Those kinds of positive attributes are developed bit by bit over years and not in some grand lecture when the kid turns 16.

Mugatu are you, or have you ever been, a parent? Or are you just making this stuff up?

I have parents,and have witnessed different parenting styles, but I have not been a parent.  You have misinterpreted my statement.  I did not say that all education occurs at one lecture.  I said that education occurs on a grander scale than day-to-day activity.  Week-to-week, if you will.  Perhaps month-to-month.  Even maybe evening-to-evening. 


You're missing his (and my) point.  That type of education occurs at a day-to-day level when your child is not yet capable of reasoning for itself.  In other words, those first few years I'd like to take off to be with my kids.

J, if you didn't bring enough penis for everyone, you shouldn't have brought any penis at all. 

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Re: The Mommy Wars for J.D.s
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2007, 02:27:04 AM »
I need to buy a ballcock.

This has nothing to do with The Mommy Wars (at least not these Mommy Wars), but you're the group of people who seems to be awake and I thought you would want to know.
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It sounds so reasonable when you say it.