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Author Topic: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants  (Read 16311 times)

attic4fp

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Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2007, 01:24:43 AM »
I know this isn't really the topic of discussion here, but I would encourage certain posters to take a more nuanced view of Africa.

Africa is not one place where everything is horrible.  Even in war-torn places like the Sudan, the DRC, or northern Uganda, many people live comfortable lives above the poverty line.  It is offensive to essentialize African peoples and cultures as first and foremost "poor" or "long-suffering."

Furthermore, the suggestion that no one in Latin America has suffered like everyone or even many people in Africa is ridiculous.  Colombia, Nicaragua, Guatemala, just to name a few, have all seen terrible, long civil wars marked by horrible atrocities.

Before people start having a difficult discussion about immigration, fairness, international wealth-distribution, etc. they should make sure they have some sort of understanding of the History and Politics of the regions they are discussing.

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Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2007, 01:51:56 AM »
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Africa is not one place where everything is horrible.  Even in war-torn places like the Sudan, the DRC, or northern Uganda, many people live comfortable lives above the poverty line.  It is offensive to essentialize African peoples and cultures as first and foremost "poor" or "long-suffering."

First off, I didn't mean to portray Africa in that light and I was wrong for not so specifying.  I know that not ALL (or even most) of Africa is like that.  Africa is the poorest continent where there are several on going wars and where there has been a recent history of genocide.  While there have been some horrible events in Central and South America, I don't think that the amount of suffering in certain parts of Africa are comparable to that in Columbia and other countries. 

My point was, that 12 million people slipped into the country illegally (or came legally, but didn't leave when they were supposed to) and that others (some who are suffering more) have to wait through the entire process. 

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Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2007, 02:46:24 AM »
I really found this post to be disturbing in its callousness and disregard towards illegal immigrants, particularly children. If a child is brought to the US by parents and through some circumstance end up with illegal status what do you propose be done about this cougar? round em' up and ship them home? There are children that have gone through this, so many in fact that Congress is attempting to pass a bill called the Dream Act which has bipartisan support. This law would recognize that many people were brought here as minors and should not be punished for their parents actions. It would grant conditional permanent resident status as a path towards citizenship. I'd also like to point out the not-so-subtle racism of your comments, for some reason you equate immigrants with people of color, namely those from Africa and South America. It is not surprising that recruitment for white supremacist organizations spiked during the public debate on immigration. You have no idea how difficult it is to live as an undocumented child in this country, the fear of deportation to a place that you barely know, if at all,  is terrifying. Poverty makes it very difficult to afford the legal services required to hire a lawyer to address immigration status,and without status you can't get a good job...it is a vicious cycle. and the longer you wait the worse off you are. If you end up being ordered deported as a child it becomes nearly impossible to reverse the decision. Yet again you have no power over this because of your status as a minor. Before you start a thread attacking the ability of immigrants to obtain an education take the time to think what it would be like to have done nothing wrong yet have no power to control your destiny to improve your life through education. Allowing illegal immigrants to receive in state tuition doesn't even mean they will attend because without financial aid the expense is a burden for most immigrant families. If they do go they will need private loans, again very difficult for immigrants to receive. in any case the point is to have a more complicated understanding of the lives and experiences of people, i hope its possible for you to do so.

simonsays

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Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2007, 09:09:00 AM »
I really found this post to be disturbing in its callousness and disregard towards illegal immigrants, particularly children. If a child is brought to the US by parents and through some circumstance end up with illegal status what do you propose be done about this cougar? round em' up and ship them home? There are children that have gone through this, so many in fact that Congress is attempting to pass a bill called the Dream Act which has bipartisan support. This law would recognize that many people were brought here as minors and should not be punished for their parents actions. It would grant conditional permanent resident status as a path towards citizenship. I'd also like to point out the not-so-subtle racism of your comments, for some reason you equate immigrants with people of color, namely those from Africa and South America. It is not surprising that recruitment for white supremacist organizations spiked during the public debate on immigration. You have no idea how difficult it is to live as an undocumented child in this country, the fear of deportation to a place that you barely know, if at all,  is terrifying. Poverty makes it very difficult to afford the legal services required to hire a lawyer to address immigration status,and without status you can't get a good job...it is a vicious cycle. and the longer you wait the worse off you are. If you end up being ordered deported as a child it becomes nearly impossible to reverse the decision. Yet again you have no power over this because of your status as a minor. Before you start a thread attacking the ability of immigrants to obtain an education take the time to think what it would be like to have done nothing wrong yet have no power to control your destiny to improve your life through education. Allowing illegal immigrants to receive in state tuition doesn't even mean they will attend because without financial aid the expense is a burden for most immigrant families. If they do go they will need private loans, again very difficult for immigrants to receive. in any case the point is to have a more complicated understanding of the lives and experiences of people, i hope its possible for you to do so.


a primary reason people come to this country illegally is to give their children a better life. 

seeing that the children are the end goal and motivation, while the parents illegal actions are the mechanism to reach this goal, it seems reasonable to take steps and reduce the primary motivation behind the illegal acts.


queencruella

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Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2007, 09:29:35 AM »
How is state university-level education subsidized for residents of a state -- is it funded through (or as a result of) taxpayer's money? 

If so, illegal immigrants may pay taxes in the form of a state sales tax and/or in the form of a state income tax (often automatically withheld from paychecks), which should entitle them to in-state tuition in their state of residency.

Just throwing this out there -- Perhaps someone else knows more about this?

Depends on the state. Florida has no state income tax, so schools are paid for by sales tax and lottery proceeds. A good deal of the taxation comes from tourist-related enterprises, so state residents actually pay very little. Since illegal immigrants are paying the same sales tax as everyone else, they should be entitled to attend Florida schools.

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Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2007, 11:16:52 AM »
Undocumented immigrants also often hold jobs, but with fake papers, so they pay taxes but can't receive any of the benefits.  So, there is an argument that illegal immigrants do pay in.
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simonsays

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Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2007, 03:19:06 PM »
The right of the government to tax is not the same as the right to receive benefits.

I pay to subsidize farmers in Idaho and certainly don't believe the relationship is reciproacal.  That fact that they are not paying federal taxes implies illegals take far more than they receive.

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Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2007, 04:16:01 PM »
The right of the government to tax is not the same as the right to receive benefits.

I pay to subsidize farmers in Idaho and certainly don't believe the relationship is reciproacal.  That fact that they are not paying federal taxes implies illegals take far more than they receive.

again, don't really like the term "illegals".
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Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2007, 05:17:06 PM »
The right of the government to tax is not the same as the right to receive benefits.

I pay to subsidize farmers in Idaho and certainly don't believe the relationship is reciproacal.  That fact that they are not paying federal taxes implies illegals take far more than they receive.

Just for the record - I think many illegal immigrants do pay federal taxes.  Some work at jobs that automatically withhold federal taxes.  I file a tax return each year and get a portion of what has been withheld back.  In the past, most illegal immigrants have not filed tax returns, and, therefore, do not get a refund.  If you look at that, some illegal immigrants then are paying more than they are required in federal taxes. 

That said, an increasing number of illegal immigrants are filing tax returns -- the idea that if they do everything "right", it may help them if immgiration laws change to allow them to become citizens eventually.

I do not have sources, unfortunately, though much of this is from what I've heard on NPR and from other media sources over the last few months (especially following media focus on TX's Hutto Detention Center earlier this year).  I suffer from the same problem as many others in this thread -- not knowing enough about the topic.
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1654134681665465

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Re: In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2007, 05:17:56 PM »
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I really found this post to be disturbing in its callousness and disregard towards illegal immigrants, particularly children.

I don't see how enforcing the law is callous.  It might be true that these children are suffering the consequences for their parentís actions, but whose fault is that?  Should America assume the burden for other's choices?  That hardly seems right.  

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Poverty makes it very difficult to afford the legal services required to hire a lawyer to address immigration status, and without status you can't get a good job...it is a vicious cycle.

Of course poverty is a vicious cycle, but there are millions of people all over the world who live in poverty.  Poverty is not an excuse to break the law-especially when the law is in no way discriminatory or repressive.  Opening up our borders won't bring an end to poverty.  These countries are poor because of the corrupt and unaccountable leaders.  I feel that  all the energy put into trying to change the laws of the U.S. would be better put to use calling for reform and accountability in those countries that people are fleeing from.  

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 I'd also like to point out the not-so-subtle racism of your comments, for some reason you equate immigrants with people of color, namely those from Africa and South America.  

Calling someone a racist is the last resort of someone whose argument sucks.  The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants in the U.S. are from Mexico, Central America, and South America.  Regardless of this fact, I feel the same about illegal immigrants no matter where they are from or what color of skin they have.  

I brought Africa up because there are areas of that continent experiencing extreme poverty and (as I have said twice already) those people must wait to enter the U.S. legally, while others (be they Canadians, Mexicans, people of the Caribbean, etc.) cut in front of those people.  I think that is wrong.  The only thing more reprehensible is that the countries these people flee from feed the fat of the corrupt leaders at the people's expense.  

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again, don't really like the term "illegals".

I don't really want to get into what the most PC term is.  The government calls them "aliens" or "illegal aliens", but because that doesn't "sound nice" they are called "illegal immigrants".  I believe the latest spin is to call them "undocumented migrant workers".  They are illegal, so I don't find the term illegals (which is short for either illegal aliens or illegal immigrants) offensive.  I don't see either term as racist or derogatory, rather just a classification of a group of people who are unlawfully in the U.S.  If there were other terms that were racist or derogatory, I would be offended and consider them totally in appropriate.  

Finally, I would like to point out that my family is multi-racial.  I have family that came to the U.S. legally from Central America.  I do not oppose immigration and am I against prohibiting certain races or nationalities to enter the U.S.-as long as they do so in accordance with the law.  I spent several years in some of the worst parts of this country doing service and becoming friends with immigrants (legal and illegal) and I have great respect for these people.  I even became fluent in Spanish because i spent so much time with people from Latin America (again, some legal and some illegal).  I saw how hard they work, and the pain that it caused them to be away from their families.  I saw how some were forced to live difficult lives because they were here illegally.  Out of all of this I came to realize that nearly all came to the U.S. not because they wanted to leave home, but because they were forced to.  THEIR GOVERNMENTS are the problem, not our laws.  Instead of us accommodating them, we need to help them get their country back so that they can live comfortable, fulfilling lives.