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Author Topic: The Truth about the Pay Gap  (Read 4922 times)

GraphiteDirigible

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Re: The Truth about the Pay Gap
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2007, 05:45:41 PM »
But in my mind, these two situations are hardly comparable.

Why not?

This is shaping up to be very similar to the Affirmative Action debates. But, there is a difference: choice. According to that article, the primary difference in pay can be attributed to different life choices. Getting rid of straight discrimination perhaps should be a governmental prerogative. But, charging taxes to hopefully change what some women see as unfair social factors pushing them toward a choice they don't want, is not the way to go.
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AlphaBusey

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Re: The Truth about the Pay Gap
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2007, 05:49:20 PM »
But in my mind, these two situations are hardly comparable.

Why not?

This is shaping up to be very similar to the Affirmative Action debates. But, there is a difference: choice. According to that article, the primary difference in pay can be attributed to different life choices. Getting rid of straight discrimination perhaps should be a governmental prerogative. But, charging taxes to hopefully change what some women see as unfair social factors pushing them toward a choice they don't want, is not the way to go.

That's true.  I guess I unwittingly opened a big can of worms the second I brought up the comparison.  "Slavery was worse than the Holocaust" is another such one that I actually was reading about today.  Al Sharpton has some crazy ideas about that one, by the way.  But anyway, I'm bringing that up idly, not for discussion.  That topic would probably land this thread on the Haterade Board faster than a Regent Grad can get hired by DoJ.  Oy double vey.
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GraphiteDirigible

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Re: The Truth about the Pay Gap
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2007, 06:23:35 PM »
you guys kiss and make up
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GraphiteDirigible

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Re: The Truth about the Pay Gap
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2007, 06:26:40 PM »
But in my mind, these two situations are hardly comparable.

Why not?

This is shaping up to be very similar to the Affirmative Action debates. But, there is a difference: choice. According to that article, the primary difference in pay can be attributed to different life choices. Getting rid of straight discrimination perhaps should be a governmental prerogative. But, charging taxes to hopefully change what some women see as unfair social factors pushing them toward a choice they don't want, is not the way to go.

Disturbingly this article and the discussion seems to focus only on college educated women.  Sure itd be nice to have a gender mixed ruling class bbbbuuuuuuttttttt

What about the working class women?

Smail's complaints about them skipping out on work early and abusing benefits dont really apply to them since they are working hourly with little or no benefits.

Itll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Yes, it will. And that's a great example of some (allegedly, I guess) actual discrimination that it is our government's place to do something about.
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GraphiteDirigible

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Re: The Truth about the Pay Gap
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2007, 06:37:27 PM »
Allegedly affecting 2 MILLION WOMEN.
Well, it hasn't been decided yet. Obviously they'll win. Then it won't be alleged.

::Must.. maintain.. accuracy::
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AlphaBusey

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Re: The Truth about the Pay Gap
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2007, 06:47:20 PM »
But in my mind, these two situations are hardly comparable.

Why not?

This is shaping up to be very similar to the Affirmative Action debates. But, there is a difference: choice. According to that article, the primary difference in pay can be attributed to different life choices. Getting rid of straight discrimination perhaps should be a governmental prerogative. But, charging taxes to hopefully change what some women see as unfair social factors pushing them toward a choice they don't want, is not the way to go.

That's true.  I guess I unwittingly opened a big can of worms the second I brought up the comparison.  "Slavery was worse than the Holocaust" is another such one that I actually was reading about today.  Al Sharpton has some crazy ideas about that one, by the way.  But anyway, I'm bringing that up idly, not for discussion.  That topic would probably land this thread on the Haterade Board faster than a Regent Grad can get hired by DoJ.  Oy double vey.

So your position is that the Holocaust was worse than slavery?

Talk about Pandora's Box.  Like I said, I was bringing that up to demonstrate the potential heatedness of these kinds of comparisons.  I'm a little wary to debate it because of some of the emotions involved.  But if you want my personal opinion, free of arguments, then:  Of two great evils, was it the greater?  Yes.
UVA '10

My generation's for sale
Beats a steady job.
How much have you got?
My generation don't trust no one
Its hard to blame
Not even ourselves.
The thing that's real for us is: fortune and fame,
All the rest seems like work.
Its just like Diamonds
In *&^%.- Queens of the Stone Age

GraphiteDirigible

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Re: The Truth about the Pay Gap
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2007, 06:58:58 PM »
What's worse peeing in someone's drink or crapping on someone's lawn?

This seems like a more worthwile argument.
Happy colored marbles that are rolling in my head
I put 'em back in the jacket of the one I love
Carry that velvet sack full of pretty colored marbles
And I'll ask you for 'em back, when I'm ready and done

AlphaBusey

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Re: The Truth about the Pay Gap
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2007, 07:07:11 PM »

Talk about Pandora's Box.  Like I said, I was bringing that up to demonstrate the potential heatedness of these kinds of comparisons.  I'm a little wary to debate it because of some of the emotions involved.  But if you want my personal opinion, free of arguments, then:  Of two great evils, was it the greater?  Yes.

Yes, well, there goes that.  You never did have anything that approximates an argument. Next time, maybe.

I too am Jewish, well, my mother is, so while I don't identify myself as such religiously, I'm told it stills counts :P

But as for the argument, for me the key is in the intent.  Slavery has occurred many times over the course of history, and generally the intent is the same: To gain increased economic activity by utilizing virtually free labor, with very little overhead.  That usually entails sub-standard conditions, but there's still an element of economic restraint.  A slave represents an investment.  Therefore, there's an incentive to feed them and keep them healthy up to a point, as work done is a return on the investment.

In the Holocaust, of course, Jews, Roma and Sinti (or gypsies, as they're usually known), and various other "asocials" as they were termed, were put in slave labor camps, in addition to the death camps.  But the end result of this slave labor, as stated by several sources, most notably a draft paper issued by Himmler and approved by Hitler, was death.  Economic viability here was a secondary concern.  It was not economics governing the situation.  It was "Hey, these guys are doing heavy labor and we're feeding them 800 calories a day.  They're going to die within a year or so, but we might as well get something out of them".  With slavery, future generations were encouraged, in order to multiply the work force.  With the Holocaust, the whole root objective was the complete and utter annihilation of a people, under the loose ethnic defininition of "Jews" (and any American just needs to glance at their family tree to see how absurd notions of ethnicity are).

Now that begs another question then, isn't the Holocaust just genocide?  I go with Yehuda Bauer's (Israeli Holocaust scholar) definition, which is more or less in line with the UN's.  Genocide is the particular targetting of violence and oppression towards a specific group (loosely defined as ethnic, religious, cultural, etc.).  A holocaust, however, is the rigorously planned and systematic extermination of a group in its entirety.  The only other historical example I can think of that comes close is this country's campaign against the Native Americans, but I'm not sure that fits the criterion of being "systematic".  But that's an area I know far less about.
UVA '10

My generation's for sale
Beats a steady job.
How much have you got?
My generation don't trust no one
Its hard to blame
Not even ourselves.
The thing that's real for us is: fortune and fame,
All the rest seems like work.
Its just like Diamonds
In *&^%.- Queens of the Stone Age

AlphaBusey

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Re: The Truth about the Pay Gap
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2007, 07:08:01 PM »

Talk about Pandora's Box.  Like I said, I was bringing that up to demonstrate the potential heatedness of these kinds of comparisons.  I'm a little wary to debate it because of some of the emotions involved.  But if you want my personal opinion, free of arguments, then:  Of two great evils, was it the greater?  Yes.

Yes, well, there goes that.  You never did have anything that approximates an argument. Next time, maybe.

Coming from someone whose only comments, on any topic I have seen, have been nothing but shallow, pithy attempts to condescension...  give me a second to bask in the irony.
UVA '10

My generation's for sale
Beats a steady job.
How much have you got?
My generation don't trust no one
Its hard to blame
Not even ourselves.
The thing that's real for us is: fortune and fame,
All the rest seems like work.
Its just like Diamonds
In *&^%.- Queens of the Stone Age

VTMercutio

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Re: The Truth about the Pay Gap
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2007, 07:25:34 PM »
Perhaps I am not seeing the big picture...so if I am not...please educate me...as I am sure everyone will be willing to do  :), but paralleling this situation to the civil rights act is a bit wrong.  I suppose that the only way to deal with the pay gap could be the same way that the civil rights act dealt with the past discrimination...aka affirmative action, but it just isn't quite the same.

Discrimination used to take place based solely on the color of ones skin...to pay someone less when they do less work...just isn't wrong in the same sense.  Perhaps as I said the only way to deal with this would be something akin to Affirmative Action, however, I believe it is somewhat already in place.  When a woman applies to an engineering school...I hate to say it, but she will have a much easier time to get in, thus schools are attempting on their own to bolster the amount of women represented in the scientific fields.  Perhaps not enough for some, but what we are talking about her is sweeping societal change.

Instead of watching mommy cook, perhaps if we want more women in scientific fields, we watch our moms come home and do our algebra or show us some kind of science project.  Typically, these are the things that our dads show us.  The pay gap is a lingering negative effect of essentially a world society that used to have women stay home and make babies...that is changing, slowly, but surely it is changing.

I suppose to close it up, this pay gap is a product of society, not piggish men.  Women currently propagate this just as men.  I hate to say it, but I have met a few women at college that actually said that they just wanted to graduate, get married, and have kids...no career goals; I'll give a quarter to the first man I hear actually say that and mean it.
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