Just really frustrated about the lack of unrepresented minority at law schools..

[struggles]

Well, from my point of view there's no true detriment cause by AA. I believe in equality and for things to get closer to equal some get pulled back and some get pushed up. Which, is not entirely "fair" if your not the one reaping the benefits. However, there's a greater good here. Yes, is unfair if some over priveledged wealhty white kid gets pushed out of their spot in school X (if that's even the reality of what happens, and I'm not saying it is). But, that poor black kid who climbed mountains to get there is just as deserving of the spot, even if that means a few less points on the LSAT. If the LSAT can even be used as a good measurement or predictor of a minorities qualifications to go to law school. It will take years and years to change society into one that brings up equal black and whites in terms of education. And small steps along the way help. Its not so much an individual thing, that white kid vs that black kid. Its more a macro picture, there's no detriment to society for giving that URM an extra push, but there's possibly a detriment to that losing idividual....In fact, the more and more URMs that get in push us somewhere closer to a more equal society. Whats on the other side of that coin? there's a few less spot for whites? doesn't seem like much detriment to me.

[Chibundu]

I do not mean to be long but bear with me. Affirmative Action is an extremely temporary solution for a problem that is greater than the policy can actually overcome. It is like placing a bandaid on a gash, you dont do that. There will still be huge problems and even more negative recourse than the positive of placing the bandaid on the gash. The best possible solution for the gash is stitches, but like a previous poster stated, it actually behooves SOCIETY and the governemt to not solve this problem. The growing disparity between the HAVES and the HAVE NOTS continues to grow due to capitalisms need for educated workers and those who are uneducated.

So why spend money educating citizens who would wind up being problems to society in the long run. The more educted a society, this less likely the government is able to do what it wwants without negative backlash.

So affirmative action attempts to right a wrong that is more complicated than sticking a few minorities in the office, in a law school, a business school, Med school. I wrote a paper on AA my freshman year and have done significant research on not so much the effects of AA, but moreso the need for it. And if my mom is not educated and does not propose education as a means to acquire greater upward societal mobility, then why would I feel like it would help me? This is the problem in many inner city neighborhoods and rural towns. Education is not a priority within the community and so the youth do not have that additional reinforcement at home once they leave school. So the percentage of minorities that graduate from high school is smaller than that of the majorities  and those entering college is even smaller. Then you look at the stats of those who graduate and the numbers continue to be more miniscule. So there is no mathematical way that the numbers of minorities in higher education will ever be equal as long as society continues along this path. Which is why we must try to break the cycle AND like another poster said, try to not use or have a Victim's mindset.

We must acknowledge that a problem exists so that we can work towards a solution. Which is why racism is still so prevalent in society. No one wants to talk about it or acknowledge it and so the problems continue. If alcoholics never admit they have a problem, they will remain alcoholics.

So is AA good, yes. Does it harm more then the good it provides, NO. Numbers do not mean that someone is smarter than another. If those same students were not bringing a different perspective in the classroom and ended up failing out of school, then maybe, but I doubt that they are not as smart and wont end up making the smae if not more contributions to the classroom in the greater whole. I knoe, speaking for MYSELF personally, I will voice my opinion and state it from my point of view, where if they admitted someone who was like others in the class but had better numbers those lawyers would not be better for it. My opinion. HTH

[mugatu]

::begins setting up argument::

Where does the cycle of poverty begin?

[Chibundu]

Let's be for real in this, especially if we are talking numbers and stats. White women, WHITE WOMEN benefit THE MOST by AA since it has been in existence. Just so we know that. So all of those kids who were/are complaining should cuss their moms out, becuase she was able to get into a better college and get a better paying job becuase of AA. Although she still aint being paid spit, compared to her white male counterparts of the SAME credentials AND her minority counterparts are still being paid EVEN Less than she is. So if all things are equal, can I get paid more or should I just have resentment for my white counterparts, for benefitting from the white man's priviledge (sp?)

::begins setting up argument::

Where does the cycle of poverty begin?

It begins in education and based on history, but if education was adjusted and the home was focused on education and environment also less focused on other things, then education would and should be the equalizer. Everyone is socialized through 5 major arenas; Home, School, Religion, Government, can't remember the last one. Educationwould work better if the home environment were fixed, but yea poverty starts at the home and with education or lack there of.

[mugatu]

::begins setting up argument::

Where does the cycle of poverty begin?

It begins in education and based on history, but if education was adjusted and the home was focused on education and environment also less focused on other things, then education would and should be the equalizer. Everyone is socialized through 5 major arenas; Home, School, Religion, Government, can't remember the last one. Educationwould work better if the home environment were fixed, but yea poverty starts at the home and with education or lack there of.

::continues setting up argument::

What happens if we fix education completely, and totally?*

*good facilities, 25 students per teacher, safety, extracurricular activities, provide school supplies for those unable to afford them, etc.

(Open to anybody.)

[Miss P]

I know as a URM that if I can study enough to get a 3.7 and 165, then I will get into Harvard  So what's my motivation to get a 3.9 and 175? 

You are a URM?

[jillibean]

I know as a URM that if I can study enough to get a 3.7 and 165, then I will get into Harvard  So what's my motivation to get a 3.9 and 175? 

You are a URM?

No - sorry I didn't mean to imply that...just speaking hypothetically.

whats your motivation? lets see, you obviously studied enough to get a 165 which is much higher than the average black LSAT sore, and you have a 3.7-- a 3.9 isn't even a significant enough of a jump. Use another example if you are trying to make a point

[LuvHurtz]

I know as a URM that if I can study enough to get a 3.7 and 165, then I will get into Harvard  So what's my motivation to get a 3.9 and 175? 

I don't think all urms feel that if they have certain numbers they are guaranteed to get in anywhere. I am a urm and studying for the LSAT again and I do not think that a 165 is a good enough score for me to get into the schools I am aiming for. I have to say when I study I don't say I'm black I don't need to score that high. I look at the medians for the schools I am applying and try to score as high above them as possible just like everyone else. That's it.

That being said, I do see where you are coming from. Sadly, there are some minorities who do think that all they have to have is say a 165 and as such don't really aim for much higher than that. I would hope that is not the general consensus though.

[philibusters]

I agree with what I think is the overall point the proponents of AA are making on this board:  bringing races together is good.  Having a more equal society in terms of race is good.

Struggles....my problem is not with a poor black kid with a 165 who "climbed mountains" getting into Harvard over a "privileged wealthy white kid" with a 175.  If that black kid can talk about the mountains he climbed, and how that can add to the learning of others at Harvard, then fine let him in over the privileged white kid, because he'll add a different viewpoint that people at Harvard will benefit from.  But that same opportunity isn't open to a poor white kid with a 170 who climbed mountains to get there.  In addition, there are plenty of privileged URMs with 165s that can offer less than that poor white kid to the classroom discussion, but will get in over that poor white kid with a 170 who worked his ass off.

Say in this country of about 300 million people, there's going to be 50 million "rich" people, 100 million "middle class" people, and 150 million "poor" people.  Assuming those numbers are going to stay the same, why do I care what the color of the skin is of the 150 million poor people?  Why is it better to have 50 million poor whites and 100 million poor minorities, as opposed to 150 million poor minorities? (this is kinda a weird and probably stupid way of demonstrating what I'm trying to say, but do you know what I mean?)

And this is all assuming that 1) URMS benefit from AA as a whole and 2) that racial awareness, respect, tolerance, etc are increased by AA.  I think in general AA is probably a good thing for that second notion of awareness and respect of other races, cultures, etc.  But there is also oftentimes resentment by whites towards URMs, when the whites miss out on a job, or a college or law school admission, etc in favor of a URM with lower numbers.  I think bringing different races together is overall a good thing, and AA is a good step toward this goal, but the positive effects are also mitigated by the fact that so many whites get angry and say things like "If I was black, I wouldn't have been rejected from Harvard," and turn that anger at being rejected from Harvard into an anger directed at URMs.  I don't agree with these people, but anyone who's been on a college campus knows it exists.

And again, I'm not sure that lowering the standards for URMs will benefit URMs in the long run.  It's this paternalistic aspect of AA that I have the biggest problem with.  I know as a URM that if I can study enough to get a 3.7 and 165, then I will get into Harvard  So what's my motivation to get a 3.9 and 175?  Keep in mind that I know admissions is not solely a numbers thing, and that people aren't only motivated by grades and getting into good colleges, law schools, etc, but it's the easiest way to give examples.

So I'm just not sure that AA is a good way to accomplish what I see as it's two goals 1) bringing races together to increase awareness, respect, tolerance, etc 2) benefiting URMs

I still not a fan of that analysis:focusing on how much each recipient deserves AA (how much they overcame, what diversity they bring to the school).  I still the better way is to look at its effect on a macro level and ask such questions, Are there more URM lawyers?  Has this contributed to growing URM professional class?  If it has increased the number of URM lawyers is it making it easier for URM's to access to lawyers?  And other questions along those lines that focus on the macro effect rather than focusing on whether each recipient deserves it.

[Ersatz]

Well, from my point of view there's no true detriment cause by AA. I believe in equality and for things to get closer to equal some get pulled back and some get pushed up. Which, is not entirely "fair" if your not the one reaping the benefits. However, there's a greater good here. Yes, is unfair if some over priveledged wealhty white kid gets pushed out of their spot in school X (if that's even the reality of what happens, and I'm not saying it is). But, that poor black kid who climbed mountains to get there is just as deserving of the spot, even if that means a few less points on the LSAT. If the LSAT can even be used as a good measurement or predictor of a minorities qualifications to go to law school. It will take years and years to change society into one that brings up equal black and whites in terms of education. And small steps along the way help. Its not so much an individual thing, that white kid vs that black kid. Its more a macro picture, there's no detriment to society for giving that URM an extra push, but there's possibly a detriment to that losing idividual....In fact, the more and more URMs that get in push us somewhere closer to a more equal society. Whats on the other side of that coin? there's a few less spot for whites? doesn't seem like much detriment to me.

This is starting to come across as an elaborate flame. Nice strawman there - you got "over priviledged wealhty white kid" on one side and "the poor black kid who climbed mountains to get there" on the other. Are you serious with this?