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Author Topic: Just really frustrated about the lack of unrepresented minority at law schools..  (Read 22766 times)

awesomepossum

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I don't want to start or perpetuate a flame, but I do have an honest question.

Lawdog07, you said that the LSAT is the barrier for many minorities.  Do you think it is an unfair barrier?  Are minorities somehow disadvantaged from doing well on the LSAT?  Does this disadvantage carry over to non-URM minorities? 

I personally don't know the answer to those questions.  I am a minority but not a URM.  I personally don't believe that these standardized tests can have a cultural bias.  However, if there is something intrinsic to the LSAT that is unfair to minorities is it something that can be somehow rectified? 

Again, I'm not looking to start a flame.  I just would like to get folks opinion on the issue.  Preferrably from URMs who have taken the LSAT who may or may believe that the LSAT is unfair to minorities. 

I think the LSAT is a barrier for many minorities.  Reason being that many minorities cannot afford to pay the astronomical fees that are charged for the prep courses or prep materials.  The LSAT does not test your intelligence.  If you can manipulate the test, you will do well.  This is what the prep courses teaches you.  I know people with ugly GPA's that have scored in the 160's on their LSAT.  Personally, I had a good GPA and my diagnostic score was a 148 on the LSAT (even though my GRE and SAT scores were good enough to work for Kaplan).  I took the EXTENDED Kaplan course twice and learned the tricks like the back of my hand.  I ended up scoring in the 170's.  I could afford to pay the $1500 because I am a working professional.  A lot of minorities do not have that option or the finances which leaves them behind the curve...


The thing about the prep courses is actually a really valid point.  I didn't take one, but I did buy a few hundred dollars worth of books from LSAC. 

I wonder though if this in as of itself is really a barrier.  I agree that a 1500 course is crazy expensive.  I'm probably upper middle class, and I thought it was too expensive.  However, there are plenty of materials available that aren't 1500.  I don't think taking a course like that is really the norm is it?

The other thing is that people URM or not who are applying to law school have their degree (bachelors) or are on the verge of getting their degree no?  I have a hard time believing that they REALLY don't have any access to any study materials.  I guess I have trouble believing that a prep course is standard for people getting high LSAT scores.

However, lawdog, I really do think that you make a good point.  I guess I have trouble believing that one factor makes all the difference in terms of URM LSAT performance.  I guess those courses weren't something I had considered because.....I hadn't taken one.... self centered I know.  I wish there was some real evidence somewhere (not published by Kaplan and not just anecdotal) that demonstrated how effective those courses are vs. cheaper self-study alternatives.

I think that diversity is really important to a law school.  I was pretty upset when I found out about Proposal 2 at Michigan.  When I said that to a friend of mine (who was white admittedly) he said, why can't schools give an advantage to those who are ECONOMICALLY disadvantaged, not just those who are URM's.  Each of those factors don't necessarily imply the other.  I didn't really have a good answer to that beyond the fact that racial diversity in a law school is important.  If there was some intrinsic reason why the LSAT is tougher for URM's and not just the economically disadvantaged, things like affirmative action would be easier to defend.

Admittedly I'm also bummed that Asians aren't considered URMs.
U.Michigan 2011 (deferred from '10)


law_dawg_07

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I don't want to start or perpetuate a flame, but I do have an honest question.

Lawdog07, you said that the LSAT is the barrier for many minorities.  Do you think it is an unfair barrier?  Are minorities somehow disadvantaged from doing well on the LSAT?  Does this disadvantage carry over to non-URM minorities? 

I personally don't know the answer to those questions.  I am a minority but not a URM.  I personally don't believe that these standardized tests can have a cultural bias.  However, if there is something intrinsic to the LSAT that is unfair to minorities is it something that can be somehow rectified? 

Again, I'm not looking to start a flame.  I just would like to get folks opinion on the issue.  Preferrably from URMs who have taken the LSAT who may or may believe that the LSAT is unfair to minorities. 

I think the LSAT is a barrier for many minorities.  Reason being that many minorities cannot afford to pay the astronomical fees that are charged for the prep courses or prep materials.  The LSAT does not test your intelligence.  If you can manipulate the test, you will do well.  This is what the prep courses teaches you.  I know people with ugly GPA's that have scored in the 160's on their LSAT.  Personally, I had a good GPA and my diagnostic score was a 148 on the LSAT (even though my GRE and SAT scores were good enough to work for Kaplan).  I took the EXTENDED Kaplan course twice and learned the tricks like the back of my hand.  I ended up scoring in the 170's.  I could afford to pay the $1500 because I am a working professional.  A lot of minorities do not have that option or the finances which leaves them behind the curve...


The thing about the prep courses is actually a really valid point.  I didn't take one, but I did buy a few hundred dollars worth of books from LSAC. 

I wonder though if this in as of itself is really a barrier.  I agree that a 1500 course is crazy expensive.  I'm probably upper middle class, and I thought it was too expensive.  However, there are plenty of materials available that aren't 1500.  I don't think taking a course like that is really the norm is it?

The other thing is that people URM or not who are applying to law school have their degree (bachelors) or are on the verge of getting their degree no?  I have a hard time believing that they REALLY don't have any access to any study materials.  I guess I have trouble believing that a prep course is standard for people getting high LSAT scores.

However, lawdog, I really do think that you make a good point.  I guess I have trouble believing that one factor makes all the difference in terms of URM LSAT performance.  I guess those courses weren't something I had considered because.....I hadn't taken one.... self centered I know.  I wish there was some real evidence somewhere (not published by Kaplan and not just anecdotal) that demonstrated how effective those courses are vs. cheaper self-study alternatives.

I think that diversity is really important to a law school.  I was pretty upset when I found out about Proposal 2 at Michigan.  When I said that to a friend of mine (who was white admittedly) he said, why can't schools give an advantage to those who are ECONOMICALLY disadvantaged, not just those who are URM's.  Each of those factors don't necessarily imply the other.  I didn't really have a good answer to that beyond the fact that racial diversity in a law school is important.  If there was some intrinsic reason why the LSAT is tougher for URM's and not just the economically disadvantaged, things like affirmative action would be easier to defend.

Admittedly I'm also bummed that Asians aren't considered URMs.

Awesome...first off thanks for having something logical to say  :)

Second, I know it would seem like there are so many other other avenues to study other than a test prep class and there are but the class adds a dimension of discipline (at least for me it did) and support.  Those test prep courses (not just Kaplan) not only offer live feedback but they also administer the test several times under real conditions.  I do not think that test itself is biased.  I do believe that finances prevent a lot of people from taking that course and why should that be?  Why should only those who can  afford it be allowed to benefit from it? 

And I am a firm believer that the majority of high scorers have taken a prep course.  I have no evidence to support this but after speaking with those in my testing room for the actual LSAT, only 2 people had not taken some type of prep course.

P.S.  I am not a big proponent of Affirmative Action.  I think the policy and what it stands for has been muddled over the years and highly understood.  I think it needs to be re-named and re-defined.
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Lindbergh

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I went to visit the school I am going to be attending. And since I am very sensitive to race and equality issues I noticed right off the back that there is a serious lack of hispanics and blacks...tons Asians and East Indians which is expected...It just really makes me sick, maybe if our prisons weren't so over populated with Hispanics and blacks there would be more of them represented in the higher echolen of education. I mean, I knew this was the case, but still it blows my mind.  >:(


Go easy on the blacks and hispanics.  It's not necessarily their fault they're all in jail.  :-\

And maybe they just don't want to attend law school.  No reason for you to get upset with them.  People have different goals.

wellpreserved

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I went to visit the school I am going to be attending. And since I am very sensitive to race and equality issues I noticed right off the back that there is a serious lack of hispanics and blacks...tons Asians and East Indians which is expected...It just really makes me sick, maybe if our prisons weren't so over populated with Hispanics and blacks there would be more of them represented in the higher echolen of education. I mean, I knew this was the case, but still it blows my mind.  >:(


Go easy on the blacks and hispanics.  It's not necessarily their fault their they're all in jail.  :-\

And maybe they just don't want to attend law school.  No reason for you to get upset with them.  People have different goals.

fixt by literate jail bird darkie.
I tested between 151 and 162. I hoped for the high end and ended up in the middle. Still, not a bad plan overall, I think.

LSAT: 156 (not taking it again and you can't make me)
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Miss P

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Go easy on the blacks and hispanics.  It's not necessarily their fault their they're all in jail.  :-\

And maybe they just don't want to attend law school.  No reason for you to get upset with them.  People have different goals.

fixt by literate jail bird darkie.


Oh, honey, you can't fix ugly.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

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Astro

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Go easy on the blacks and hispanics.  It's not necessarily their fault their they're all in jail.  :-\

And maybe they just don't want to attend law school.  No reason for you to get upset with them.  People have different goals.

fixt by literate jail bird darkie.


Oh, honey, you can't fix ugly.


How I missed thee.
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Miss P

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How I missed thee.

Well looky here!
That's cool how you referenced a case.

Quote from: archival
I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.

Lindbergh

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I went to visit the school I am going to be attending. And since I am very sensitive to race and equality issues I noticed right off the back that there is a serious lack of hispanics and blacks...tons Asians and East Indians which is expected...It just really makes me sick, maybe if our prisons weren't so over populated with Hispanics and blacks there would be more of them represented in the higher echolen of education. I mean, I knew this was the case, but still it blows my mind.  >:(



Go easy on the blacks and hispanics.  It's not necessarily their fault their they're all in jail.  :-\

And maybe they just don't want to attend law school.  No reason for you to get upset with them.  People have different goals.

fixt by literate jail bird darkie.



Thanx!

Got any topless pics?

The F-cktard Express

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Go easy on the blacks and hispanics.  It's not necessarily their fault their they're all in jail.  :-\

And maybe they just don't want to attend law school.  No reason for you to get upset with them.  People have different goals.

fixt by literate jail bird darkie.


Oh, honey, you can't fix ugly.

Shhh. I'm sure Limburger is fixing up a way to include looks into his affirmative action plan. Uggos should get similar preference to darkies.

Or something like that. But just thank goodness deformed people aren't applying to college.  ::)

Lindbergh

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Go easy on the blacks and hispanics.  It's not necessarily their fault their they're all in jail.  :-\

And maybe they just don't want to attend law school.  No reason for you to get upset with them.  People have different goals.

fixt by literate jail bird darkie.


Oh, honey, you can't fix ugly.

Shhh. I'm sure Limburger is fixing up a way to include looks into his affirmative action plan. Uggos should get similar preference to darkies.

Or something like that. But just thank goodness deformed people aren't applying to college.  ::)


Your racist commentary is offensive and disgusting.

However, while we're on the topic, do you feel it's harder socially to be a deformed/ugly white/asian, or an attractive URM?  Which is more likely to discourage someone, and make it harder for them to achieve academically? 

I mean, would you rather go through life as Beyonce, or as Napoleon Dynamite?