What T14 schools use lotteries for on-campus recruiting?

[queencruella]

Ok so apparently I was reading that post that I commented on from a different slant as everyone else.  What I was saying is that pre-screening from an employer's standpoint on it's face seems like a reasonable practice.

It looks like from everyone else's reading that it was meant to say that it was dumb for the CSO to allow pre-screening and that from a student's standpoint pre-screening is dumb.  So yea, my mistake I guess it was just a semantical misunderstanding.

I don't know that it's all that great from an employer's standpoint either. Pre-screening results in the same small group of people getting all the interviews and all the offers. Some people who interview will have absolutely no interest in the job. At least with the bid system, you'll probably get a sizable group that has a serious interest in working for that employer. Will there be some that are clearly unqualified? Of course, but at least you aren't interviewing 20 people who are just interviewing with you because they can.

[SanchoPanzo]

Now I'm confused 

Random? Why would the lottery be completely RANDOM? Then what if by chance NOBODY gets to interview with their top firms? I thought it was more along the lines of what 2elandbored said.

No. Here is how I understand it works (at some schools).
Step 1: Bids are entered
Step 2: Someone Fires up the super computer
ROUND 1
Step 3: Super computer randomly picks person (say A) and selects A's highest ranked firm
Step 4: Super computer attempts to match A with the firm. If there are slots available, A is added.
Step 5: If no slots available move to A's next highest ranked firm and repeat step 4 until match
Step 6: Go back to Step 3 and select from among students who have not been selected in this round
End of Round 1
Round 2
repeat Steps 3 - 6
End of Round 2
you get the idea...

Anyway, in each round, each student is (randomly) assigned to their highest ranked available choice before moving to the next round.

[Quail!]

Ok so apparently I was reading that post that I commented on from a different slant as everyone else.  What I was saying is that pre-screening from an employer's standpoint on it's face seems like a reasonable practice.

It looks like from everyone else's reading that it was meant to say that it was dumb for the CSO to allow pre-screening and that from a student's standpoint pre-screening is dumb.  So yea, my mistake I guess it was just a semantical misunderstanding.

I don't know that it's all that great from an employer's standpoint either. Pre-screening results in the same small group of people getting all the interviews and all the offers. Some people who interview will have absolutely no interest in the job. At least with the bid system, you'll probably get a sizable group that has a serious interest in working for that employer. Will there be some that are clearly unqualified? Of course, but at least you aren't interviewing 20 people who are just interviewing with you because they can.

That's true enough, I guess I just don't understand why someone would interview for a job in which they have no interest - but I can see how it might happen.  In any case, I'm a fan of the lottery system so it's all good 

[queencruella]

Ok so apparently I was reading that post that I commented on from a different slant as everyone else.  What I was saying is that pre-screening from an employer's standpoint on it's face seems like a reasonable practice.

It looks like from everyone else's reading that it was meant to say that it was dumb for the CSO to allow pre-screening and that from a student's standpoint pre-screening is dumb.  So yea, my mistake I guess it was just a semantical misunderstanding.

I don't know that it's all that great from an employer's standpoint either. Pre-screening results in the same small group of people getting all the interviews and all the offers. Some people who interview will have absolutely no interest in the job. At least with the bid system, you'll probably get a sizable group that has a serious interest in working for that employer. Will there be some that are clearly unqualified? Of course, but at least you aren't interviewing 20 people who are just interviewing with you because they can.

That's true enough, I guess I just don't understand why someone would interview for a job in which they have no interest - but I can see how it might happen.  In any case, I'm a fan of the lottery system so it's all good 

Trust me, there are people who do it. I know I have several friends who are so concerned about getting ANY job that they are just going to apply to as many firms as possible, regardless of interest.

[themanwithnoname]

NYU has a lottery system like the one described for most of the other schools.

[2elandbored]

Everyone has a lottery system, except for a very few schools.  It is a mistake not to do a lottery system.  The employers will get their people, so there is no reason to worry about them.

From a student's standpoint (which is what I was discussing), it makes a big difference. 

If you do a lottery, like the one people have described (not the "random thing people were talking about earlier), everything works out as hoped.  The student meets with their counselor and talks through firms they will apply to.  Your counselor will undoubtely tell you to bid consesrvatively, meaning on firms they know are obtainable.  This is a mistake, because getting a top Vault firm job is very very easy.  There are some elite shops (small firms), but they don't show up highly ranked on Vault.  For instance, Jenner & Block (DC Office) is very hard to get.  However, Skadden (highly ranked) is unbelievably easy to get a job at.  Vault doesn't tell you this, because Vault is basically useless, but that is for another time.

I digress...with the lottery, almost all the students will have the same number of interviews.  Out of about 50 bids, they will probably get 30-35 interviews. 

Now, in a preselect (which I stand by my word is dumb) system, the top students don't know what to expect, so they use all their bids.  There are not 50 top firms in their locale(s) of interest, so they bid on ALL the firms.  Everyone gets excited and uses all their bids.  Why wouldn't you?  Now the top of the class gets like 40 interviews, and the bottom of the class (bottom 1/4) gets none.  This is how it works at a top school that does pre-screening.  At lower ranked schools, firms allocate less spots overall for interviews, so a higher and higher proportion of the class receives a limited number of interviews in comparison to the top of the class.

For instance, at Northwestern, Kirkland & Ellis will allow 80 to 100 students to interview with them.  Not even 100 students have an interest in the firm, so you are guaranteed an interview slot with them no matter where you rank them in your bidding preferences. 

At say a lower ranked school (say DePaul), Kirkland & Ellis interviews say 40 people, so they interview the very top 40 people.  Another top Chicago firm, a little smaller than Kirkland & Ellis, only interviews maybe 20 people.  They interview the very top 20 people.  Thus, the same people get interviews over and over. 

This won't happen to the same extent at a UVA, because firms will allocate so many spots, that there will be enough to go around.  Still the bottom of the class will see significantly less interviews.  Thus, if your grades are not up to par, you only have 10 chances to impress, instead of 30, if you are in the bottom of the class. 

Furthermore, the top of the class does not suffer in a lottery system, because they are going to get the jobs no matter what.  They don't need 30 or 40 interviews, but I guarantee they are going to bid on them.  They only need 20 interviews to obtain 10-15 callbacks.   

[apollok]

i guess now the more interesting question is at what point down the law school rankings do schools STOP using the lottery and allocate interviews based on grades/rank.  does anyone have experience with this?  what's the outcome like?

[queencruella]

i guess now the more interesting question is at what point down the law school rankings do schools STOP using the lottery and allocate interviews based on grades/rank.  does anyone have experience with this?  what's the outcome like?

I know schools at about 20 use prescreening, but I've known people with great grades to have mediocre luck there as well, so I don't know that it's 100% about grades.

[m1]

it seems to be primarily a t-14 benefit, with the addition of schools 15-18 perhaps (i don't know each school's policy, so I just am guessing, but I know that it doesn't extend far past 20)

[Quail!]

I think USC pre-screens, but I'm not 100% sure