Spin-off Thread of "What's Your Favorite Thing About USA"

[naturallybeyoutiful]

Like I promised, I am going to post some replies here to a few posters in the other thread.  I am starting this thread since other people's responses have moved in a different direction than the thread's intended purpose, and I do not want to have to hijack the other one.  That said, I really hope that this can be a place for discussion and dialogue.

One thing worth mentioning before I reply...

There are a few things we already know about one another at this point.  We know that there are a multitude of faiths, races, beliefs, interests, lifestyle choices, etc. represented on this board.  It is also quite clear that we are not all in agreement about any one particular issue at one particular time.  Aside from ignoring these differences altogether, it would seem that our other compelling choices are to fight about it or talk about it.  I hope that this thread will be used only as an opportunity to do the latter.  brb 

[John Blackthorne]

tease

[Hank Rearden]

I still think she likes me because I'm young and cool. 

who can't like Hank?  young, cool, nice, cute....c'mon...the man's a keeper.   

(my new way of tagging a thread)

[naturallybeyoutiful]

i should have clarified my position.  its not her religion per se, its the vein in which she expressed it; i have nothing but contempt for christians who see pain, hurt, and suffering in the world and blame it on man, then turn around and say that its all part of god's purpose or something similar.  where was God during slavery?  where was God during the holocaust?  teaching man a lesson??  WTF?  seriously.  God watched slavery go on for hundreds of years, and did nothing about it.  

Forest,

Thanks for this reply.  This is a serious question, and a good one!!!  If I had the time (and didn't have to catch the train at 6 am tomorrow), I'd share something I read not too long ago that helps me answer questions like these.   If you are really interested in thinking more about this, please come back to this thread tomorrow afternoon (liek 6 pm or so) when I'm back home from work.  I'll type it all out, and we can discuss more!  Thanks.

please don't bother.  i read thru the hardaway discussion and i have no interest in discussing this matter with you any further.

Forest, I wanted to wait until I was home from work to respond to the part I highlighted above because I knew it would take more time than I had available last night to explain why your quote may have misconstrued my position.  I felt I owed that to you, because I meant it when I said your question was a serious one.  One that deserved a response!  One that, should we have the same conception of God, I would no doubt ask just as forcefully and passionately as you did!  One that I, in fact, did have to ask myself sometime ago and get some understanding about since that time.  

This is something that I would have enjoyed discussing because it gets to the heart of the matter and the root of some of the issues of truth that other posters and I disagree upon.  Embedded in your questions are very real assumptions (I don’t use this in a negative sense, but simply as a way to say “first principles” or “presuppositions” – things you accept to be true and then reason from) about the nature of man v. the nature of God…the (non)existence of real good and evil…the sovereignty of God v. the free agency of man.  You are well within your right to ask these questions, and it is well within your power to search for the answers.   More than that, if you'd like, we can discuss this together.  Now I don’t pretend to have everything all figured out, but I am more than willing to share with you what I have learned along the way.  I will, however, respect your wishes and not post the “food for thought” that would begin to help shed light on the questions you raised.  Should you ever be open to discussing the matter again, let me know.  I really mean that.  Irrespective of all that has been said in previous threads, I am still available to speak about this if you’d like.  If not, that’s okay, too.  

[naturallybeyoutiful]

I stand by what I said, or implied, or was getting at.  Crediting (blaming) man for slavery, and crediting (praising) God for its abolition is absurdity of the first order.

Bran, you actually may be interested in exploring this more.  From the tone of the rest of your post, I really couldn’t tell though.  Let me know.  Thanks! 

[naturallybeyoutiful]

Well Nat seems to be able to write well and is willing to engage different ideas.  Plus theres doctrinaire Marxists at Harvard too, I suspect.  No one here is in a position to judge on anything except Nat's philosophy anyway.

Thanks, credo, for the compliment on writing.  I appreciate that.  I was an avid reader and writer as a child, and it’s something that I’ve gotten away from a bit as I’ve gotten older.  One of things that excites me about law school is the way the power of language can be used to shape the world.  Some people have great musical talents, athletic brilliance, particular intellectual prowess, or the like.  I don’t claim to have anything spectacular in any of these things.  The one thing God has given me is a voice, and with this (both orally and in writing) I strive to bring Him glory with it. 

As for the Marxist comment, I’m not sure I completely understand what you mean.  If you think me to be a Marxist, that would be incorrect!  lol  I am simply a follower of Jesus Christ.  I have found him to be more than enough. 

[naturallybeyoutiful]

Really though I dont see any difference in saying: "Hey Ive got a belief system that devalues homosexuals" as much different than saying one has a belief system that devalues a race say, or women.

On this point, we agree.  My belief system actually stands diametrically opposed to the one you described.  The message that Jesus preached is the first and (is through and through) the only one that brought dignity and value to each and every person!  (In fact, you see women and races enjoying the most freedoms in various countries/areas in proportion to the extent that the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Biblical principles have actually begun to penetrate the law base of that nation and the hearts of its citizens.)  It is because God is who He is and is as good as He is that people of every ethnic group, language, tribe, and gender are called to know Him and receive His love.   God’s love extends to whites and blacks alike without regard for the color of their skin.  His love for both men and women is what causes Him to desire nothing less than His perfect plan for our lives, our sexuality, and our identities.  It is God that values the unborn life He is knitting together in a woman’s womb.  It is God who takes the time to heal the cripper, cure the leper, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the refugee, mend a broken heart, and set prisoners free.   

I could go on and on and on and on about this.  Not because I read it in the Bible – though that’s all in there.    But because I’ve experienced it for myself.  I am no longer talking to you about what I believe or what I heard or what somebody told me.  I am speaking about someone I know.  Truth is not some high-sounding philosophy filling some archaic book.  It is not some laundry list of “thou” and “thou shalt nots.”  It is not a head covering, a chant, a prayer ritual, or a stained glass window.  I have been astounded, after all my years of sitting in church and “playing religion”, to find out in the end that truth was actually a person.  Someone alive and well.  Someone I could relate to.  Someone who knew me and was, in fact, the reason there was a me at all.  Someone who, when I wasn’t looking for Him…rebelling against Him in every way and living my life as I pleased... loved me enough (and valued me enough) to come after me anyway.  This kind of love, this kind of devotion that goes after the unlovely – the prideful, the arrogant, the thief, the murderer, the liar, the selfish one, the cheater, the adulterer, the fornicator, the jealous, the rude, the impatient, the hateful, the skeptic, the dirty, the broken, and the list goes on – this kind of love is something that only a real true and living God could express.  I know because I was guilty of most of the things on that list, and God still found we worth loving.  And Jesus still found me worth dying for.

So, you see, it is not God that devalues life.  Man does.  That is apparent to me in some of the posts in the other thread.  In a matter of minutes, what often begins as a discussion disintegrates into something far more vicious, spiteful, and strife-filled than it ought to be.  It is WE who find it hard to even dignify another human life with our speech when (s)he happens to take an opposing view from us.  WE devalue one another based on religion.  We devalue one another based on race.  We devalue one another based on class.  WE do this.  And in this way, the natural inclination of our own hearts is not much different from those who lived in other times.  We look at the evils of slavery, the Holocaust, genocide, or the like and we point our finger at God.  That blame is misplaced, and this is a subject that (should you desire) I’d be happy to explore further offline.

[naturallybeyoutiful]

Whew!  Okay, I'm tired for now.  I had to type everything in a word doc first so that I didn't have to bother cutting and pasting when I found that it was too long for the post box.  In any event, I'm glad to see people starting to read the thread.  I'm going to re-read my posts for grammar/spelling mistakes (I can't help it ), and then I'm going to call it a night.  I need to eat dinner, make some calls, and otherwise get up from this computer.  I appreciate those of you who are still interested enough to hear some of my thoughts, and I look forward to reading your replies tomorrow.

For those who I didn't get to yet (from the other thread), I will reply.  I promise.  Just try not to let this thing grow 10 pages in my absence, and I will be able to stay on top of it!   

[Astro]

::yawns::

::gets on horse::

::waits for other three to arrive::

[Hank Rearden]

I think the problem Forest and halfie are having is that they don't understand how God could be perfect yet still have created so many imperfect things.  If God created the universe, who created the Devil?  Who created evil?  I'm still not sure what the answer is to this question.