Law School Discussion

U. San Diego Dean responds to rankings drop

Re: U. San Diego Dean responds to rankings drop
« Reply #90 on: April 27, 2007, 05:35:33 AM »
I don't know how I missed this huge argument but it reminded me of the one I had a few weeks ago when I was waitlisted at USF. It ended with yanksfan324 telling us all to move on. I'm sorry about the USD waitlist goosenesque, I think that you should have been accepted with some cash. Your GPA has to be worth something but then again you did get 10K from Santa Clara, which weighs GPA much more heavily than USD. Additionally, I was accepted at Santa Clara today with no money and withdrew the same day. I also got a waitlist from Iowa but it doesn't matter since I'm going to USD. Good luck on your pending applications. At least one future USD student is treating you with some respect. You did answer my question on another thread when I asked if I was likely to get into USD. Just being decent in return.  ;)

For the love of god, can we get this thread back on course? 

If you all want to fight with each other, do it in PMs.  None of us care.


So McGeorge... yeah...

Does anyone know if in the past they ended up having extra Legal Scholar days in April?

Re: U. San Diego Dean responds to rankings drop
« Reply #91 on: April 27, 2007, 06:35:43 AM »
I don't know how I missed this huge argument but it reminded me of the one I had a few weeks ago when I was waitlisted at USF. It ended with yanksfan324 telling us all to move on.

For the love of god, can we get this thread back on course? 

If you all want to fight with each other, do it in PMs.  None of us care.


So McGeorge... yeah...

Does anyone know if in the past they ended up having extra Legal Scholar days in April?

haha, yeah, I remember that argument as well.  I was not involved however, just enjoying the show.  It was humorous at first, but got old and was completely off topic.  At least in this thread it was relevant to the topic.  :D


Re: U. San Diego Dean responds to rankings drop
« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2007, 09:30:03 AM »
I sure hope this argument is over, because I've become too emotionally involved in it... I haven't slept in days.

Anyhoo, when did you all hear about $$ from USD after your acceptance letter? I got my acceptance a couple of weeks ago, and I haven't heard about any money. I sure as hell am not paying full full price.

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Re: U. San Diego Dean responds to rankings drop
« Reply #93 on: April 27, 2007, 11:18:03 AM »
I've been asked to chime in on this discussion, so I am offering my experience and opinions...

I am a 3L at Boalt, who has interviewed both in primary and secondary markets, both in Southern California and elsewhere. I will be very honest and say that I've never interviewed for a job in San Diego, but after having done OCI as a 2L and 3L I feel like I have some experience that warrants sharing my opinion on the debate at hand.

That everything outside Harvard and Yale is regional is a completely ludicrous claim. Not that I find the USNWR rankings the most credible system, but it's worth noting that Stanford has been ranked above Harvard for a number of years now, and I am not certain how one might even dare to claim that the #2 law school in the country is largely regional.

The missing piece of the puzzle here may be that when applicants have been admitted to a number of top schools, all of which are roughly equal in pedigree, they might choose one in the area where they think they might like to practice after graduation. It's not an unreasonable decision, but I don't think it's one motivated by a fear that if you go to Stanford instead of Columbia, you'll lose a NYC position to a Fordham grad. Prestige, whether we like it or not, whether it's justified or not, is still the name of the game in legal hiring.

My own experience with secondary markets was marked by mixed results. My first OCI I desperately wanted a job in Florida. I did not get one there, but instead ended up splitting my summer between a Texas firm and an Atlanta firm. I can tell you very confidently that I was doggedly pursued, wined and dined and enjoyed special treatment by these secondary market firms. In both the interviews and the subsequent summer clerkship, I was singled out and treated differently (better) than the clerks from the local regional schools. At each of my firms there was at least one other person from a top school, who also enjoyed this special treatment. It was apparent to me that the recruitment efforts were stepped up for us.

You're probably thinking, "Well, you didn't get a job in Florida." You're right, I didn't. But the Florida market is very unique and notoriously difficult to penetrate, even if you're a top 5% grad of UF, FSU, or Miami. The deal with Florida is that it's a state that has a dozen or so law schools -- a high number for any state and comparable to the number in NY, CA, and DC. What sets FL apart from the aforementioned markets is that it has, comparatively speaking, few large firms and the summer classes there are small, usually under 10 people, even in the largest offices. So the problem there is an oversupply of candidates and lack of demand in the market. Based on my interview, I am fairly convinced that the firms I had callbacks with in FL just didn't buy that I would actually return there, given the other options they assumed I had as a Boalt grad. This much was actually communicated to me in an interview dinner at my top choice Fl firm. Basically, I am not convinced that I didn't get that job because they preferred a UF grad...

Like I said, I can't say I have personal experience with the SD market, but there are plenty of Boalties who are from the area, none of whom had trouble getting summer positions (even as 1L's) at top SD firms. I am not particularly concerned about the 4 SD firms that don't show up to Boalt OCI. There is a whole variety of reasons why that may be and among them are that there was no demonstrated interest in those firms by Boalt students, that the limited space at Bancroft hotel (the interview site) caused our CDO to prioritize NYC or SF firms, that they were asked not to return, that they were not invited in the first place. I am not suggesting that any of these are the real reason, but as a law student, you are trained to be cautious about claiming causation (as in 4 SD firms don't come to Boalt because they prefer USD students) when there are plenty of other viable explanations (not limited to the ones offered above).

Are there more USD grads than Boalt grads at USD firms? Very likely. However, that is probably because USD grads have limited degree mobility, whereas Boalt students have a number of other very realistic options besides SD. SD is a smaller secondary market and salaries lag behind those of SF, DC, NYC and the like. Boalt students are generally interested in at least starting out at the best firms, paying the best salaries, so SD is not high on most Boalties' list of possible job venues.

I'm not saying that USD is a bad school; it's clearly not. I'd even be willing to go so far as to say that they probably know more law by the time they graduate than we do. But you cannot in good conscience claim that, all other things being equal, a middle of the class grad from USD is preferred to a similar grad from Boalt -- in ANY market. That's a dishonest and misleading claim.

Re: U. San Diego Dean responds to rankings drop
« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2007, 11:46:07 AM »
Like I said, I can't say I have personal experience with the SD market, but there are plenty of Boalties who are from the area, none of whom had trouble getting summer positions (even as 1L's) at top SD firms. I am not particularly concerned about the 4 SD firms that don't show up to Boalt OCI. There is a whole variety of reasons why that may be and among them are that there was no demonstrated interest in those firms by Boalt students, that the limited space at Bancroft hotel (the interview site) caused our CDO to prioritize NYC or SF firms, that they were asked not to return, that they were not invited in the first place. I am not suggesting that any of these are the real reason, but as a law student, you are trained to be cautious about claiming causation (as in 4 SD firms don't come to Boalt because they prefer USD students) when there are plenty of other viable explanations (not limited to the ones offered above).

Well, I take issue with your post because you responded as though everyone who was disagreeing with goose actually agreed 100% with each other.  I'm not sure that's the case.  While I'm not in law school yet, I do believe many of the T14s to be national schools.  That said, sno did specifically say "regional to some extent".  And I think you even proved his point with your lack of luck landing a job in FL.

Also, AZWildcat specifically stated that USD grads can get jobs out of USD, citing a friend of his landing a job with Latham in NYC, as an example.  Obviously then, I don't think the point was that you can't get jobs in other regions if you go to any school outside the top two.  It was merely that you may not have it handed to you to the degree that you would if you went to school in your desired region to practice. 

The rest of your post is all nice, but I'm not sure anyone disagreed with the majority of it.  Furthermore, out of curiosity, where in your class are you ranked?

I will chime in on the above though since it was I who brought that part of the dicussion to the table.

Nowhere did I say why those 4 firms don't interview at Boalt.  It may very well be because if they did, no Boalt grads would be interested.  However, the issue was just how much better the job opportunities for a Boalt grad were as compared to a USD grad, in SD.  I was merely pointing out that more firms OCI at USD than Boalt.  Why?  I don't care, really.  The reasons don't add any value to my claim, which was simply that as far as SD firms that hire, more OCI at USD.  Over 90% of Miami grads end up with jobs, and the majority work in FL, despite it being such a "tough market" to crack.  I would bet this is a result of going to school in that market.

Of course, I'm a misinformed 0L, so I could very well be wrong.  And I don't say this mockingly.  However, if so, I've been led astray by many.

Re: U. San Diego Dean responds to rankings drop
« Reply #95 on: April 27, 2007, 11:58:38 AM »
Thanks Ksusha!

<3

Again, the major issue I had was with his claim that all schools outside Harvard and Yale are regional...I don't care if he's a 2L, that's simply just NOT true.

And also, Boalt doesn't have class rankings, so her class rank is not an issue here.

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Re: U. San Diego Dean responds to rankings drop
« Reply #96 on: April 27, 2007, 12:08:44 PM »
either way...this argument has resulted in some REALLY GOOD INFO.


Re: U. San Diego Dean responds to rankings drop
« Reply #97 on: April 27, 2007, 12:18:42 PM »
Thanks Ksusha!

<3

Again, the major issue I had was with his claim that all schools outside Harvard and Yale are regional...I don't care if he's a 2L, that's simply just NOT true.

And also, Boalt doesn't have class rankings, so her class rank is not an issue here.

Ehh, you argued about a lot more than that, but there really is no reason to rehash it. 

I agree with whoneedsanABA, there has been good info in this thread, and that is often the result of a good debate, which is why I welcome them.  People just need to chill out though.

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Re: U. San Diego Dean responds to rankings drop
« Reply #98 on: April 27, 2007, 12:32:01 PM »
Like I said, I can't say I have personal experience with the SD market, but there are plenty of Boalties who are from the area, none of whom had trouble getting summer positions (even as 1L's) at top SD firms. I am not particularly concerned about the 4 SD firms that don't show up to Boalt OCI. There is a whole variety of reasons why that may be and among them are that there was no demonstrated interest in those firms by Boalt students, that the limited space at Bancroft hotel (the interview site) caused our CDO to prioritize NYC or SF firms, that they were asked not to return, that they were not invited in the first place. I am not suggesting that any of these are the real reason, but as a law student, you are trained to be cautious about claiming causation (as in 4 SD firms don't come to Boalt because they prefer USD students) when there are plenty of other viable explanations (not limited to the ones offered above).

Nowhere did I state or imply that everyone here agreed on all the points. If you notice, I was more sharing my experience than counter-arguing something.


Well, I take issue with your post because you responded as though everyone who was disagreeing with goose actually agreed 100% with each other.  I'm not sure that's the case.  While I'm not in law school yet, I do believe many of the T14s to be national schools.  That said, sno did specifically say "regional to some extent".  And I think you even proved his point with your lack of luck landing a job in FL.

Uh, not exactly. Read what I read. I didn't have bad luck because it's hard for a Boalt grad to get a job in Florida, I had bad luck because EVERYONE, including Florida students, have bad luck getting jobs in Florida. And, I thoroughly explained why Florida was different than basically every other market nationally. Your analogy doesn't work. Sorry.
Also, AZWildcat specifically stated that USD grads can get jobs out of USD, citing a friend of his landing a job with Latham in NYC, as an example.  Obviously then, I don't think the point was that you can't get jobs in other regions if you go to any school outside the top two.  It was merely that you may not have it handed to you to the degree that you would if you went to school in your desired region to practice. 

I don't disagree with the fact that some USD grads may get jobs in primary markets. For the most part, however, I do believe that jobs are almost handed to T14 grads. You have to be a social retard not to get a job in a primary market with a T14 degree. It's somewhat more challenging in a seconday market if you have no previous ties to the place, but that limitation is virtually erased for any T14 grad that is from the secondary market in question, even if he chose to go to law school elsewhere.

The rest of your post is all nice, but I'm not sure anyone disagreed with the majority of it.  Furthermore, out of curiosity, where in your class are you ranked?

Boalt doesn't rank. Not that it would change much for my professional prospects if they did.

I will chime in on the above though since it was I who brought that part of the dicussion to the table.

Nowhere did I say why those 4 firms don't interview at Boalt.  It may very well be because if they did, no Boalt grads would be interested.  However, the issue was just how much better the job opportunities for a Boalt grad were as compared to a USD grad, in SD.  I was merely pointing out that more firms OCI at USD than Boalt.  Why?  I don't care, really.  The reasons don't add any value to my claim, which was simply that as far as SD firms that hire, more OCI at USD.  Over 90% of Miami grads end up with jobs, and the majority work in FL, despite it being such a "tough market" to crack.  I would bet this is a result of going to school in that market.

Yes, they get jobs, but it's hard to break into BIGLAW. That is, if you read carefully, what I stated in my post above. Few large firms, few summer associate positions. There is tons of small law in Miami and a good number of grads go to do government work. It's not as easy as you think to get a job there, even if you are top 5-10% at Miami. I have a good friend who goes there, is a 3L was in the top 5-10% every year. While I managed to get a callback interview with Greenberg Traurig (the largest Miami firm) despite the fact that GT did not interview for the Miami office at our OCI, he was politely dinged after his screening interview. He struggled for the rest of his law school career, trying to break into BIGLAW and never managed to do it. I'm not saying he's representative, but to my knowledge, he's a nice guy, well socialized and doesn't have any outright undesireable characteristics. It's not quite handed to you there either, even if you go to school there. But, like I said above...I am not trying to compare Florida to SD because they are inherently different markets.
Of course, I'm a misinformed 0L, so I could very well be wrong.  And I don't say this mockingly.  However, if so, I've been led astray by many.

Law school recruitment is a lot like selling a car. Yeah the used car salesman is gonna tell you that a certified car from his lot is just as good as that brand new BMW at the dealership across the street. And, I suppose in some situations you might get lucky and your certified pre-owned car might outlast the BMW, but it's ridiculous to assume that this happens regularly.

The people who are telling you that a regional school is just as good or better, like the car salesman, obviously have some stake in you choosing their product. It's always nice to brag about taking the best and brightest away from a higher ranked school. Hell, Boalt publishes in its alumni magazine every summer how many poor souls picked us over Yale. Do I think Boalt is a great school? Yeah, of course. Do I think those people were insane to turn down Yale to go there? Abso-f-in-lutely.

Re: U. San Diego Dean responds to rankings drop
« Reply #99 on: April 27, 2007, 12:48:31 PM »
Uh, not exactly. Read what I read. I didn't have bad luck because it's hard for a Boalt grad to get a job in Florida, I had bad luck because EVERYONE, including Florida students, have bad luck getting jobs in Florida. And, I thoroughly explained why Florida was different than basically every other market nationally. Your analogy doesn't work. Sorry.

I read what you wrote, I just disagree.  Why is your input worth more than numerous lawyers who work in FL and current students at Florida schools who have differing views than you?  If you're referring only to BigLaw, then perhaps.  However, not once prior to your post did anyone mention BigLaw, so it's irrelevant.

I don't disagree with the fact that some USD grads may get jobs in primary markets. For the most part, however, I do believe that jobs are almost handed to T14 grads. You have to be a social retard not to get a job in a primary market with a T14 degree. It's somewhat more challenging in a seconday market if you have no previous ties to the place, but that limitation is virtually erased for any T14 grad that is from the secondary market in question, even if he chose to go to law school elsewhere.

Well, I did not mean to (nor do I think I did) imply USD grads had equal national opportunity as T14 grads.  I was merely showing that AZ did not say you could not get jobs in other regions from schools other than HY.

Boalt doesn't rank. Not that it would change much for my professional prospects if they did.

All students at any T14 have equal OCI opportunity?  I ask seriously as I never looked into this knowing I wouldn't be going to one.  I can believe it at HYS.  I find it hard to believe the same would hold true as you move down the ladder.  That does not mean it's impossible, as I do not know for sure.

Yes, they get jobs, but it's hard to break into BIGLAW.

I'll stop you right there since this was not, as far as I know, a BigLaw discussion.  Perhaps I misunderstood the debate at hand. 

That is, if you read carefully, what I stated in my post above. Few large firms, few summer associate positions. There is tons of small law in Miami and a good number of grads go to do government work. It's not as easy as you think to get a job there, even if you are top 5-10% at Miami. I have a good friend who goes there, is a 3L was in the top 5-10% every year. While I managed to get a callback interview with Greenberg Traurig (the largest Miami firm) despite the fact that GT did not interview for the Miami office at our OCI, he was politely dinged after his screening interview. He struggled for the rest of his law school career, trying to break into BIGLAW and never managed to do it. I'm not saying he's representative, but to my knowledge, he's a nice guy, well socialized and doesn't have any outright undesireable characteristics. It's not quite handed to you there either, even if you go to school there. But, like I said above...I am not trying to compare Florida to SD because they are inherently different markets.

I'm certainly not going to try and explain your friend's misfortunes.  All I can say is UMiami is a school I heavily considered and had heard different experiences about the top students there. 

Law school recruitment is a lot like selling a car. Yeah the used car salesman is gonna tell you that a certified car from his lot is just as good as that brand new BMW at the dealership across the street. And, I suppose in some situations you might get lucky and your certified pre-owned car might outlast the BMW, but it's ridiculous to assume that this happens regularly.

The people who are telling you that a regional school is just as good or better, like the car salesman, obviously have some stake in you choosing their product. It's always nice to brag about taking the best and brightest away from a higher ranked school. Hell, Boalt publishes in its alumni magazine every summer how many poor souls picked us over Yale. Do I think Boalt is a great school? Yeah, of course. Do I think those people were insane to turn down Yale to go there? Abso-f-in-lutely.

Agreed about the used car salesman thing.  That said, not one of my sources I refer to are "recruiters".  They are friends, acquaintances, or current students with no alterior motives.  As with everything in this world, everyone has their experiences to base their opinions on, and they can greatly differ depending on who you are and who you know.