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katluva33

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I wish...
« on: March 31, 2007, 09:07:33 AM »
I wish people would actually seriously study the issue of race.  It amazes me how ignorant and uniformed so many people are about something that permeates every single part of our society.  If we could stop reacting from emotional, personal places of "I didn't get into Michigan because some black man did" and started actually seriously studying and understanding the impact of race on society, we'd have a much stronger and purposeful argument

As it is, I'm sick of arguing with uninformed people who do google searches for what I can only imagine would be "AA is racist", thereby ensuring that the majority, if not the entirety of the results only reconfirm their assumptions.  I suspect they don't ever read the serious criticism of such results, or read them with the purpose of saying that it's all stupid.  I love how people against AA google to find studies that support them, and then when we show them studies that don't support them, all of a sudden "studies don't matter because you can make a study to prove anything". 

I wish I could challenge one anti-AA person to go major in Ethnic Studies, African American Studies, or something of the like.  I wish there was some machine that could take them back in time and show them what their life would have been like if they weren't white.  I wish people would realize that you don't have to be rich or the decendants of slaveholders to have benefited from racism.  I wish some of the people who were so fervently against race measures would actually open their eyes and consider that the world isn't out to get the white man.

I know someone will write back and say all thoese same things about pro-AA people, but before you do, I'd just like to tell you that I, and I suspect many of my colleagues, have to fight with the other side every single day, and have been doing so our entire lives.  My very existence in my classrooms has been challenged since I was nine years old, so believe me, I've heard the other side.  I've been assigned to read it for homework, even when it was ever-so-subtle, when there was no other side provided, and when I was too young to know the difference.  However, that is not to say that my position is an emotional one, because it isn't.  Precisely because I am a person, I am not allowed to be emotional when it comes to the issue of race, and I can only debunk emotional racist ideas by presenting counter evidence that is devoid of emotion.  I have entered my studies assuming I was wrong and that the other side was right, but then the issues of persistent inequality emerge that the other side just can't answer.  (And I know that someone will STILL write back that I am in fact being emotional...)

EDIT: I wish people would understand that colorblindness doesn't erase the reality of race; pretending it doesn't exist doesn't change the fact that the systems in place have long disadvantaged entire peoples.  If the US was a horse race and you let all the white horses, with varying speed, out of the gate first, but held the horses of color back for a few minutes and weighed them down and put hurdles in front of them once you finally did let them go, would you seriously expect the second group of horses to ever catch up to the first without removing the hurdles, the weight, AND moving them forward?  Sure, maybe one horse here or there might do it, but the vast majority won't be able to.  It's a cheesy metaphor, I know, but it's not too far off from reality...

But all wishes can't come true...
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I mean, there needs to be a wholesale effort against racial profiling, which is illiterate children

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naturallybeyoutiful

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Re: I wish...
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2007, 09:12:00 AM »
I wish people would actually seriously study the issue of race.  It amazes me how ignorant and uniformed so many people are about something that permeates every single part of our society.  If we could stop reacting from emotional, personal places of "I didn't get into Michigan because some black man did" and started actually seriously studying and understanding the impact of race on society, we'd have a much stronger and purposeful argument

As it is, I'm sick of arguing with uninformed people who do google searches for what I can only imagine would be "AA is racist", thereby ensuring that the majority, if not the entirety of the results only reconfirm their assumptions.  I suspect they don't ever read the serious criticism of such results, or read them with the purpose of saying that it's all stupid.  I love how people against AA google to find studies that support them, and then when we show them studies that don't support them, all of a sudden "studies don't matter because you can make a study to prove anything". 

I wish I could challenge one anti-AA person to go major in Ethnic Studies, African American Studies, or something of the like.  I wish there was some machine that could take them back in time and show them what their life would have been like if they weren't white.  I wish people would realize that you don't have to be rich or the decendants of slaveholders to have benefited from racism.  I wish some of the people who were so fervently against race measures would actually open their eyes and consider that the world isn't out to get the white man.

I know someone will write back and say all thoese same things about pro-AA people, but before you do, I'd just like to tell you that I, and I suspect many of my colleagues, have to fight with the other side every single day, and have been doing so our entire lives.  My very existence in my classrooms has been challenged since I was nine years old, so believe me, I've heard the other side.  I've been assigned to read it for homework, even when it was ever-so-subtle, when there was no other side provided, and when I was too young to know the difference.  However, that is not to say that my position is an emotional one, because it isn't.  Precisely because I am a person, I am not allowed to be emotional when it comes to the issue of race, and I can only debunk emotional racist ideas by presenting counter evidence that is devoid of emotion.  I have entered my studies assuming I was wrong and that the other side was right, but then the issues of persistent inequality emerge that the other side just can't answer.  (And I know that someone will STILL write back that I am in fact being emotional...)

But all wishes can't come true...

Wow!!!!  TITCR

Well-said, katluva33.
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eastend

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Re: I wish...
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2007, 09:30:13 AM »
Our Constitution makes it clear that people of all races must be treated equally under the law.   Prejudice based on race is a reality in America. It hurts many people. Yet as we work to address the wrong of racial prejudice, we must not use AA to create another wrong, and thus perpetuate our divisions. 

philibusters

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Re: I wish...
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2007, 08:39:06 PM »
I wish people would actually seriously study the issue of race.  It amazes me how ignorant and uniformed so many people are about something that permeates every single part of our society.  If we could stop reacting from emotional, personal places of "I didn't get into Michigan because some black man did" and started actually seriously studying and understanding the impact of race on society, we'd have a much stronger and purposeful argument

As it is, I'm sick of arguing with uninformed people who do google searches for what I can only imagine would be "AA is racist", thereby ensuring that the majority, if not the entirety of the results only reconfirm their assumptions.  I suspect they don't ever read the serious criticism of such results, or read them with the purpose of saying that it's all stupid.  I love how people against AA google to find studies that support them, and then when we show them studies that don't support them, all of a sudden "studies don't matter because you can make a study to prove anything". 

I wish I could challenge one anti-AA person to go major in Ethnic Studies, African American Studies, or something of the like.  I wish there was some machine that could take them back in time and show them what their life would have been like if they weren't white.  I wish people would realize that you don't have to be rich or the decendants of slaveholders to have benefited from racism.  I wish some of the people who were so fervently against race measures would actually open their eyes and consider that the world isn't out to get the white man.

I know someone will write back and say all thoese same things about pro-AA people, but before you do, I'd just like to tell you that I, and I suspect many of my colleagues, have to fight with the other side every single day, and have been doing so our entire lives.  My very existence in my classrooms has been challenged since I was nine years old, so believe me, I've heard the other side.  I've been assigned to read it for homework, even when it was ever-so-subtle, when there was no other side provided, and when I was too young to know the difference.  However, that is not to say that my position is an emotional one, because it isn't.  Precisely because I am a person, I am not allowed to be emotional when it comes to the issue of race, and I can only debunk emotional racist ideas by presenting counter evidence that is devoid of emotion.  I have entered my studies assuming I was wrong and that the other side was right, but then the issues of persistent inequality emerge that the other side just can't answer.  (And I know that someone will STILL write back that I am in fact being emotional...)

EDIT: I wish people would understand that colorblindness doesn't erase the reality of race; pretending it doesn't exist doesn't change the fact that the systems in place have long disadvantaged entire peoples.  If the US was a horse race and you let all the white horses, with varying speed, out of the gate first, but held the horses of color back for a few minutes and weighed them down and put hurdles in front of them once you finally did let them go, would you seriously expect the second group of horses to ever catch up to the first without removing the hurdles, the weight, AND moving them forward?  Sure, maybe one horse here or there might do it, but the vast majority won't be able to.  It's a cheesy metaphor, I know, but it's not too far off from reality...

But all wishes can't come true...

I am going to give you an honest answer to why white people aren't sympathatic at least from my personal experience and observation so don't get mad.  White people, generally don't interact with african americans all that much and when they do it in small enough numbers they don't think anything of it.  They compete against other white people in school for the most part, date other white people, and form cliques with other white people, where the cool cliques look down on the nerdy cliques.  If you haven't figured out what I am getting at--its that white people aren't near as race conscious and minorities.  When you are different, when you stand out, you are very conscious of race, when you are with ten other people and 8 are white, 1 is asian, and 1 is black you probably don't even notice race (at least I don't).  If the two people that the minorities in the group notice or feel conscious of it, in hindsight maybe I feel bad for them, but at the time I don't notice. 

Sometimes, reading these boards, I don't think African Americans realize how less race conscious whites are.  When I go to play basketball at the gym and there are more African Americans than white people, and I am only 5'10, it worries me, I worry that I don't have friends there and cause I am not tall I probably won't get picked if go captains, and I hope that we shoot free throws for teams, but I don't even advocate out loud that we shoot free throws for teams rather than have captains, cause I feel a little awkward.  I doubt the African Americans also playing basketball notice me at all, just like I don't notice them a lot during the day.  You wonder why white people aren't more sensitive, look no further that to them the problems seem made up, race isn't a big issue, doesn't play that much of a role in their life.  The one myth, at least in my opinion that gets spread on this board is that whites benefit so much from race, I disagree, race may disadvantage ALL minorities, but that doesn't mean it benefits ALL whites.  There are poor whites, that are poor there entire life and in some parts of the country might never even once in their life meaningfully interact with a person of another race, its a stretch to say they are benefited.  It doesn't register with whites that they benefit from race (I would be one of those who thinks we don't benefit from race) because they barely notice it their lives, barely (maybe like me, they have something equivalent when I go to the gym).  That said I think race can disadvantage minorities in ways hard for white people (or people of the majority race, roles can be reversed as mentioned above) can understand and AA doesn't bother me.

White people would learn a lot if there was a time machine and they could learn what its like to grow a minority, that said in the opposite hypo, I think minorities, who for them race is a huge part of who they are, would also have a huge shock if they could understand how un-race conscious most whites are.  Reading these posts, I do think minorities assume whites are as race conscious as they are, and that is not good because they see whites apathy to their race as hostility when really all it is, is apathy.
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katluva33

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Re: I wish...
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2007, 08:47:12 PM »
good post, philibusters

I def. know that most whites don't have to think about race, unless of course, it comes to AA; that's part of white privilege;  I don't know why you would think I would get mad!  I'm just glad that you added that to the conversation ;) ; for some people, it means a lot more coming from you than from me
It's important for us to explain to our nation that life is important. It's not only life of babies, but it's life of children living in, you know, the dark dungeons of the Internet.

I mean, there needs to be a wholesale effort against racial profiling, which is illiterate children

George Bush

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Re: I wish...
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2007, 09:17:53 PM »
Our Constitution makes it clear that people of all races must be treated equally under the law.   Prejudice based on race is a reality in America. It hurts many people. Yet as we work to address the wrong of racial prejudice, we must not use AA to create another wrong, and thus perpetuate our divisions. 

     Are you in Law School yet?  And if so, have you taken Constitutional Law?  If not, please read the majority opinion of Grutter v. Bollinger.  In it the Court says, "When race-based action is necessary to further a compelling governmental interest, such action does not violate the constitutional guarantee of EP..."  The Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, decided that diversity was of such importance to society and education that EP should not apply.  As a white male, I completely agree.
     How can whites possibly understand the struggle that African Americans have endured?  How can they possibly understand what it feels like to be told your are a sub-human, and you aren't worth anything?  In McLaurin v. Oklahoma State Regents, an African American male was allowed to attend the University of Oklahoma Department of Education but was made to sit in a special seat in the classroom reserved for blacks, could not eat with other students in the cafeteria, and was given a special seat in the library.  How can whites possible understand the absolute degredation and dehuminization that African Americans felt on a daily basis?  Also in State v. Post, Plessy v. Ferguson, and Dred Scott v. Sandford, the highest court in the land told African Americans that they were slaves, not humans.
     It was only fifty years ago that African Americans attainded the same rights as whites, but fifty years is not enough time for attitudes or economic conditions to change.  I've worked in a few inner city schools, and you come to realize how different they are from white schools.  The schools have no money!  At one school I worked at, the history books were so old, that Reagan was still president.  The conditions of the schools are also deplorable.  Imagine being a child growing up in poverty attending schools that certainly don't foster a learning environment, and going to sleep at night scared that you might have anything to eat tomorrow because your family has no money.  Imagine the perspective you get on life.
     Many whites, simply say, "too bad"  "AA hurts white people," but they fail to look at what it really does.  If you're white you've probably (not in all cases) grown up in the suburbs with other white kids.  You have never felt the effects of prejudice in your life, but yet you claim that AA is prejudicing you.  This is simply not true.  The purpose of AA is to increase diversity in the classroom and later on, in society.  Imagine going to school, as many whites probably have, with other whites all who share the same perspective as each other.  There is no one in your class that has grown up in poverty, no one who has had to deal with discrimination, and no one to make you question your assumptions about life.  Diversity of opinion amazing.  You can analyze the marketplace of ideas and choose which one you like.  However, this marketplace is without diversity, because everyone basically has the same ideas and experiences.  Diversity of experience leads to diversity of ideas.  Perhaps as whites, we are afraid that an idea different than ours will burst the bubble that we have lived in for so long.  It is so so so easy to say that AA is discrimination and you are being hurt, but I implore you, PLEASE open up your mind and look at it from the perspective of those who society has told were nothing for hundreds of years.

dashrashi

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Re: I wish...
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2007, 10:56:43 PM »
Our Constitution makes it clear that people of all races must be treated equally under the law.   Prejudice based on race is a reality in America. It hurts many people. Yet as we work to address the wrong of racial prejudice, we must not use AA to create another wrong, and thus perpetuate our divisions. 

     Are you in Law School yet?  And if so, have you taken Constitutional Law?  If not, please read the majority opinion of Grutter v. Bollinger.  In it the Court says, "When race-based action is necessary to further a compelling governmental interest, such action does not violate the constitutional guarantee of EP..."  The Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, decided that diversity was of such importance to society and education that EP should not apply.  As a white male, I completely agree.
     How can whites possibly understand the struggle that African Americans have endured?  How can they possibly understand what it feels like to be told your are a sub-human, and you aren't worth anything?  In McLaurin v. Oklahoma State Regents, an African American male was allowed to attend the University of Oklahoma Department of Education but was made to sit in a special seat in the classroom reserved for blacks, could not eat with other students in the cafeteria, and was given a special seat in the library.  How can whites possible understand the absolute degredation and dehuminization that African Americans felt on a daily basis?  Also in State v. Post, Plessy v. Ferguson, and Dred Scott v. Lousiana, the highest court in the land told African Americans that they were slaves, not humans.
     It was only fifty years ago that African Americans attainded the same rights as whites, but fifty years is not enough time for attitudes or economic conditions to change.  I've worked in a few inner city schools, and you come to realize how different they are from white schools.  The schools have no money!  At one school I worked at, the history books were so old, that Reagan was still president.  The conditions of the schools are also deplorable.  Imagine being a child growing up in poverty attending schools that certainly don't foster a learning environment, and going to sleep at night scared that you might have anything to eat tomorrow because your family has no money.  Imagine the perspective you get on life.
     Many whites, simply say, "too bad"  "AA hurts white people," but they fail to look at what it really does.  If you're white you've probably (not in all cases) grown up in the suburbs with other white kids.  You have never felt the effects of prejudice in your life, but yet you claim that AA is prejudicing you.  This is simply not true.  The purpose of AA is to increase diversity in the classroom and later on, in society.  Imagine going to school, as many whites probably have, with other whites all who share the same perspective as each other.  There is no one in your class that has grown up in poverty, no one who has had to deal with discrimination, and no one to make you question your assumptions about life.  Diversity of opinion amazing.  You can analyze the marketplace of ideas and choose which one you like.  However, this marketplace is without diversity, because everyone basically has the same ideas and experiences.  Diversity of experience leads to diversity of ideas.  Perhaps as whites, we are afraid that an idea different than ours will burst the bubble that we have lived in for so long.  It is so so so easy to say that AA is discrimination and you are being hurt, but I implore you, PLEASE open up your mind and look at it from the perspective of those who society has told were nothing for hundreds of years.

This is a delightful post.
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dashrashi

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Re: I wish...
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2007, 01:21:58 AM »
Often, a lot more empathetic.
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eastend

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Re: I wish...
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2007, 10:54:49 AM »
No, I'm not in law school, I'll be applying this year.
The case to which you referred was a split decision and I happen to agree with the dissenters.  They did decide, however, that race shouldn't be the overriding factor in college admissions.  You've read the decision, I'm sure.  The problem is, that race is the overriding factor if law schools rely so heavily on the LSAT to predict a student's success.  That's why I wouldn't hitch the old 'stereotype threat' bandwagon to AA. 
Anyways, we have a different court now, and I'm pretty sure that AA will be tested again, and that they will find AA in regard to law school admissions, unconstitutional.

katluva33

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Re: I wish...
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2007, 07:57:10 PM »
No, I'm not in law school, I'll be applying this year.
The case to which you referred was a split decision and I happen to agree with the dissenters.  They did decide, however, that race shouldn't be the overriding factor in college admissions.  You've read the decision, I'm sure.  The problem is, that race is the overriding factor if law schools rely so heavily on the LSAT to predict a student's success.  That's why I wouldn't hitch the old 'stereotype threat' bandwagon to AA. 
Anyways, we have a different court now, and I'm pretty sure that AA will be tested again, and that they will find AA in regard to law school admissions, unconstitutional.


Well said.  Simply put, law schools lie.


People FOIA'ed some public school admit records (Boalt, Michigan, etc) and it's fairly obvious the law schools lie.  Diversity doesn't matter.  Skin color does.

Schools lied through their teeth and said AA is just a minor boost in marginal cases.  That's not it at all.  Whether or not they'll admit to it, AA ends up as a 10ish point bump in the LSAT for every, single black applicant.



New court is going to tear them to shreds.

link?
It's important for us to explain to our nation that life is important. It's not only life of babies, but it's life of children living in, you know, the dark dungeons of the Internet.

I mean, there needs to be a wholesale effort against racial profiling, which is illiterate children

George Bush