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Author Topic: Seriously considering the $ at a T3 vs. admission at a T1 (JAG)  (Read 7280 times)

vap

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Re: Seriously considering the $ at a T3 vs. admission at a T1 (JAG)
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2008, 02:41:22 PM »
Is no one else pissed that the spent the time posting on this thread when OP was an 0L and now he dropped out? Lots of thoughtful advice pissed away.

No.  The thread is over a year old, and it was revived only by OP saying he dropped out per the funny flow chart.  Not sure why a bunch of people started posting...

kenpostudent

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Re: Seriously considering the $ at a T3 vs. admission at a T1 (JAG)
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2008, 02:51:22 PM »
Permit me to throw out a very general question. There seems to be a prevailing belief in the legal community that if you don't attend a T14 school, you're not going to get a very good job. If this is true, where do all the non-T14 grads work? There are far more of them than T14 grads. Are they all struggling in dead-end, low-paying legal jobs? If this were the case, how could so many law schools continue to survive? New law schools are built ever few years? Did the legal fairy magically suspend the laws of supply and demand just for the legal market?

Finally, if prosecutor and AUSA jobs are so competitive, how come when I research their bios only a small percentage attended top schools? We have US Attorneys who attended such illustrious schools as the University of Mississippi, the University of Arkansas, and the University of Oklahoma... none are T14 by a long shot.

CoxlessPair

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Re: Seriously considering the $ at a T3 vs. admission at a T1 (JAG)
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2008, 03:31:46 PM »
Is no one else pissed that the spent the time posting on this thread when OP was an 0L and now he dropped out? Lots of thoughtful advice pissed away.

No.  The thread is over a year old, and it was revived only by OP saying he dropped out per the funny flow chart.  Not sure why a bunch of people started posting...

I know this. I was one of the posters from over a year ago. It was a waste for us who posted when OP was an 0L because it ended up being a totally moot point.
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Re: Seriously considering the $ at a T3 vs. admission at a T1 (JAG)
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2008, 03:33:00 PM »
Kenpo, I think you're really missing the point I've made and others have made about the state of the legal job market.

The point is that back in the day, one could go to a local school, start off small and in several years time be very successful. Lots of law grads could do this, not just a small pool like today. The job market for lawyers has changed. Basically, for people starting out now and in the last few years or so, things are WORSE than they have ever been. If you talk to the old timers or even attorneys who graduated 10-20 years ago, you're not going to get the same perspective that is facing new attorneys today. In sum, salaries have stagnated and new attorney positions are not opening up. You don't need anyone to tell you this, go to the Bureau of Labor statistics or read NALP's "After the JD" report.

Here are some major problems with the law job market right now as I see it:

1. Stagnating salaries for new attorneys

2. Rising debt and tuition in order to get a JD (3 times the rate of inflation)

3. MANY attorneys work well into their 50s and 60s (if they retired, more jobs for the young grads and young attorneys would open up eventually)

4. Law schools are churning out more JDs than ever - new law schools have opened in the last 10-20 years and the ABA accredits more law schools every year. Also, back in the day, law schools used to flunk out more students than they do now, further limiting the number of JDs. Incoming class sizes at many schools are also bigger than they used to be.

Just because there are people from non-T14 schools working at the local DA's and AUSA offices doesn't mean that those jobs are not competitive. Look carefully at the backgrounds of those people that went to non-top schools - they are not average law students. Short of nepotism, they had to have something in order to get those jobs whether outstanding experience or grades or both + nepotism.

When I say these jobs are competitive I mean that there are a very limited number of them available in relation to the number of law grads and law students that would like those positions. The average law student or law grad will not stand out enough in order to get one of these positions.

Lots of law grads are in dead end jobs. Even some T14 and top 25 law school grads are. There is a far higher proportion of low ranked grads in these jobs though. Many people also work quasi-legal or non-legal jobs or do temp/contract work.

Go back and read my post on the ABA. The ABA and the sector of the legal profession that makes the decision to churn out more and more law grads doesn't follow logic or the rules of supply and demand that you learned in college. Many universities siphon off a substantial portion of law school revenue (tuition and fees) in order to subsidize other university programs. Law schools also capitalize off a persistent, false belief held by the general public that most, or many law grads are successful or very successful. This belief has become very cemented over time and as long as naive pre-laws buy it (along with dubious career placement stats in glossy l.s. brochures) they are going to fork over the high tuition (and take out student loans) in order to go to law school. Why is this so hard for you to understand?


Permit me to throw out a very general question. There seems to be a prevailing belief in the legal community that if you don't attend a T14 school, you're not going to get a very good job. If this is true, where do all the non-T14 grads work? There are far more of them than T14 grads. Are they all struggling in dead-end, low-paying legal jobs? If this were the case, how could so many law schools continue to survive? New law schools are built ever few years? Did the legal fairy magically suspend the laws of supply and demand just for the legal market?

Finally, if prosecutor and AUSA jobs are so competitive, how come when I research their bios only a small percentage attended top schools? We have US Attorneys who attended such illustrious schools as the University of Mississippi, the University of Arkansas, and the University of Oklahoma... none are T14 by a long shot.

vap

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Re: Seriously considering the $ at a T3 vs. admission at a T1 (JAG)
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2008, 03:52:23 PM »
Go back and read my post on the ABA. The ABA and the sector of the legal profession that makes the decision to churn out more and more law grads doesn't follow logic or the rules of supply and demand that you learned in college.

You would rather have the ABA restrict the number of JDs so clients are forced to pay more?

It would certainly make good financial sense for lawyers... not so much for everyone else who needs a lawyer.

If they are restricting the number of lawyers for competence reasons, that's another story.  But we have the Bar exam for that (although, arguably, it doesn't do the best job).

Law schools also capitalize off a persistent, false belief held by the general public that most, or many law grads are successful or very successful. This belief has become very cemented over time and as long as naive pre-laws buy it (along with dubious career placement stats in glossy l.s. brochures) they are going to fork over the high tuition (and take out student loans) in order to go to law school.

This is the biggest problem, in my opinion.  Law school salary reporting should be more transparent.  Maybe the ABA should be responsible or state bar associations.  Schools should produce a full list of what their graduates make rather than just provide median and/or average.  Some schools don't even put ANY salary info on their websites.  Then again, this info is probably available if you are diligent enough to ask for it before going to law school.  But lots of people don't pay enough attention.

MorningYellofHorror

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Re: Seriously considering the $ at a T3 vs. admission at a T1 (JAG)
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2008, 04:12:49 PM »
And as I said, US Attorneys are irrelevant to this discussion.  They're political appointees.  Their qualifications are barely more rigorous than those of US Congressmen. 

Nobody suggested it's Top 14 or bust.  That would be silly, particularly given my experience in the region I'm from (and the region in which you work-the "West" east of California).  Regional law schools do pretty well around here, but private law schools without scholarships are probably a mistake, particularly with the economy in dire straits.  Unless you want to practice mineral/water law, most Western legal markets (most, I didn't say all) are not hurting for attorneys and do not pay very well unless you come from a top school.  Obviously, though, if you excel at CU or DU there are plenty of opportunities in Denver.  I assume it's the same with UNLV and Vegas.  And there are a lot of small litigation firms in Colorado, Wyoming and Utah if you don't mind doing insurance defense.  I'm not so sure about the public sector, and at the federal level these jobs are, and this is all anybody's said, very, very competitive. 

Bottom line in your situation, yes, with your background and a strong work ethic there's no reason you can't do great things out of UNLV or another public school.  But as we discussed in the other thread, that possibility does not mean you should stand pat with your LSAT score.  You have a fantastic GPA and fine work experience that'd look good anywhere but particularly at Northwestern.  Settling for anything less than Texas or UCLA would be a real shame while you still have the opportunity to do better.

It's not that it's absolutely necessary to a great career.  It's just a huge help.

kenpostudent

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Re: Seriously considering the $ at a T3 vs. admission at a T1 (JAG)
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2008, 05:09:41 PM »
I have to agree with you. I won't let one bad day define my career.

gratif

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Re: Seriously considering the $ at a T3 vs. admission at a T1 (JAG)
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2008, 06:44:02 PM »
-Never tried. 
-Didn't like it. 
-Wasn't going to be happy in law. 

I'm going to go hump two jobs (office + bartender), pound out of my minimal debt, lose the ten lbs being a 1L added, and live a personal dream as far as locale and recreation, and re-assess the situation.  The god awful reading that was law school has left me jaded toward academia.  I'll be comfortable living my life without letters after my name. 

I'll read up on what fascinates me, but unless a passion explodes I don't see myself in any journals.  The prestige chasing is a fool's game.  I'm so glad I didn't go to a T1, otherwise I couldn't ignore the sunk cost and I'd have to be a lawyer.

I thought the silliest post was the one about the "wasted advice" and earlier in the thread.  All I hear there is retrospective whining. This was a serious decision but not a somber one.  That sort of bitterness carries over to so many things.

I'm off to carpe some diem.

Steve Jones

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Re: Seriously considering the $ at a T3 vs. admission at a T1 (JAG)
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2008, 08:46:24 PM »
And yes.  He said he did poorly and dropped out. 

Someone suggested, if he was originally interested in the military itself rather than JAG, OCS.  I second that.  They'll help pay off his debt and get a Masters, which is the real first step toward his goal of teaching at the collegiate level.

Fool.  Getting a military commission is MUCH more difficult than getting accepted to law school.  It is very competitive.  Nothing in OP's background would indicate he'd have any chance at this at all.

I have to laugh at idiots who think becoming a military officer is a viable fallback after failing in the "real" world.
We have many people from your state that attend our school!

CoxlessPair

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Re: Seriously considering the $ at a T3 vs. admission at a T1 (JAG)
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2008, 09:04:33 PM »
And yes.  He said he did poorly and dropped out. 

Someone suggested, if he was originally interested in the military itself rather than JAG, OCS.  I second that.  They'll help pay off his debt and get a Masters, which is the real first step toward his goal of teaching at the collegiate level.

Fool.  Getting a military commission is MUCH more difficult than getting accepted to law school.  It is very competitive.  Nothing in OP's background would indicate he'd have any chance at this at all.

I have to laugh at idiots who think becoming a military officer is a viable fallback after failing in the "real" world.

Are you prior service? Just curious on the basis of your statement.

I only ask b/c I am AF JAG bound once (if) I pass this f-ing bar exam.
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