Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:

[Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3onstudentloansheis]

This thread is too hilarious to die.

Hey my fanboy is back!

Wow, you still think about me this much huh? Must be eating you up inside.

We all love you! You don't mind if I give advice too do you?

[cesco]

What commercial outlines do you like though? Should we wait to get those to see what our prof has to say about his preference or are profs likely to shun commercial outlines?

UGA gave a pretty good wrap up... (and like UGA, we spent almost all our torts time on negligence.  I think we spent one week of a whole semester on intentional torts) 

I recommend the E&E or other similar supplements over commercial outlines.  COmmercial outlines are just that - outlines.  You dont learn material by looking at an outline, you learn the material through the PROCESS of outlining.  Supplements like the E&Es, or Dressler's crim law will actually explain concepts to you in plain English.

If you want help outlining, I would recommend trading outlines w/a couple of classmates instead of buying a commercial outline b/c commercial outlines are very generic.

One final note...I broke down and bought the "High Court Summaries" for Con Law.  I am kicking myself for not doing it earlier.  High Court Summaries and  Legallines are keyed to textbooks (they make them for most major textbooks) and pull out hte BLL and important facts.  I don't think they'd be too helpful for hte subjects with pretty easy cases (torts, contracts) but for understanding the Supreme Court's often convoluted analysis in Con Law - they are great.

ok, one final final note.... outlining is very personal.  Dont get caught up in the hype of what someone else did, or how long someone's outline is.  My outlines are usually ridiculous... I put everything under the sun in them and often include detailed explanations of things.  Most of my friends do skeleton outlines - and are horrified at my monster outlines.  So, use other people's outlines as a resource, but do what works for you.

And get OneNote.  TOTALLY worth the $50.

[Thistle]

This thread is too hilarious to die.

Hey my fanboy is back!

Wow, you still think about me this much huh? Must be eating you up inside.

We all love you! You don't mind if I give advice too do you?

matthies attends denver.  denver is a t2. 

i, on the other hand, attend a t3.  as a nontrad.  on student loans.

you got a problem with that?

[Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3onstudentloansheis]

This thread is too hilarious to die.

Hey my fanboy is back!

Wow, you still think about me this much huh? Must be eating you up inside.

We all love you! You don't mind if I give advice too do you?

matthies attends denver.  denver is a t2. 

i, on the other hand, attend a t3.  as a nontrad.  on student loans.

you got a problem with that?

You're not as funny. Your advice doesn't have that "idiot who doesn't know he's an idiot" feel.

[paul1454]

Whew, I'm glad someone as intelligent as Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3o nstudentloansheis is here so he can give all of us T2-4 losers the good advice we so eagerly yearn for [insert hint of sarcasm here]!

[Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3onstudentloansheis]

Whew, I'm glad someone as intelligent as Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3o nstudentloansheis is here so he can give all of us T2-4 losers the good advice we so eagerly yearn for [insert hint of sarcasm here]!

Let me start with a lesson on networking.

As many of you know for the last 12-15 months I have been working on making networking contacts, nothing more than that, just getting to know people in the legal community and taking those relationships beyond just acquaintances.

I’ve done this by joining an Inn of the Court (IOC). The IOC meets once a month, and has about 150 members, judges and lawyers. You’re assigned to a table with at least one judge, 2 lawyers with 15 years experience, 2 with 10 years, 2 with five years and one student. From my IOC experience I got to know a Judge pretty well.

This Judge gets together with other judges and lawyers once a week for lunch. He invites me, I start going on a regular basis. Though this I get to know a Supreme Court Justice. Both Judges happen to be ex-criminal defense attorneys, so through them I meet the top criminal defense lawyers in the state. One of them invites me to a monthly dinner. I start going to this and meet some other top CD lawyers.

So one day I’m at one of these meals and mention I am really interested in legal specialty X (nothing to do with criminal defense). Well Judge says I known someone who does that, I’ll invite them next week. Next week comes and sitting at the table is a named partner at THE boutique law firm that specializes in X law. HOLY CRAP. We talk, we find something in common, and lawyer invites me to some meetings where the movers and shakers hang out in specialty X.

Long story short, Partner does not have anything for me yet, but is keeping me in mind when a project comes up. And seems to be showing me a lot of inside stuff in this specialty I never would have gotten to see first hand.

Then about a week ago one of the big criminal defense lawyers I see at lunch asks me if I would like to help him on a case. He fills me in on the details. It’s a case of first impression (meaning no court has yet ruled on this issue) in the 10th Circuit Court (federal court) going against the Department of Justice dealing with the Patriot Act (nothing AT ALL to do with terrorism though). This is a HUGE case, very complex, and he wants me to do a bunch of work for him. Ok, so I have no interest in criminal defense, but it does not matter, this is a once in a life time type case, I would be crazy not to accept it. The learning experience and resume booster alone is worth it.

I never approached him about this, never gave out a resume or transcript, never said I was looking for work, he approached me, and offered me the job. By the way, this guy does NOT take interns, he has had like 2 in 35 years, he is very picky about who he works with.

The point is networking works. Even though most of my mentors do not practice what I want to practice, it does not mean they can’t help me. I have gotten several great opportunities out of this group and will help me get into my specialty of choice (which BTW is minuscule, supper small, like 300 people in my state practice it so no chance in hell I would get in by OCI).

So no matter what you want to do, network, you never know what you might get out of it.

[Sell Out]

This thread is too hilarious to die.

Hey my fanboy is back!

Wow, you still think about me this much huh? Must be eating you up inside.

We all love you! You don't mind if I give advice too do you?

matthies attends denver.  denver is a t2. 

i, on the other hand, attend a t3.  as a nontrad.  on student loans.

you got a problem with that?

You're not as funny. Your advice doesn't have that "idiot who doesn't know he's an idiot" feel.

Worthless trolling=

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[Chibundu]

It appears his goal is to TRY to ruin this thread like he felt you ruined the other thread.

Fanboy, errrr..... Nontrad can we sit down and talk about this over some coffee or a beer or you eating glass?! I mean it cant be that serious! Can it? By the way, I loved your post on networking. Can't wait to hear more although it had that eerie deja vu effect.

[Nontradloserwhoattendsatier3onstudentloansheis]

It appears his goal is to TRY to ruin this thread like he felt you ruined the other thread.

Fanboy, errrr..... Nontrad can we sit down and talk about this over some coffee or a beer or you eating glass?! I mean it cant be that serious! Can it? By the way, I loved your post on networking. Can't wait to hear more although it had that eerie deja vu effect.

This thread better not get ruined.

[Thistle]

ok, matthies asked me to post this here....


From my first year of law school.

1.  Do NOT be "that guy."  You KNOW who I'm talking about.  The guy who won't shut up, and offers his worthless opinion on EVERY topic.  With all the experience of 23 years of living at his command, this loudmouth cretin's hand shoots up so many times that by the second semester, you can actually hear the groans of dismay.  When the professor says, desperately, "Anyone?  Anyone else?" you will know that you have become "that guy."

And that we all hate you.

2.  Share.  Yes, it's a concept that you should have learned in kindergarten, but somehow your mommy forgot to teach it to you.  If a classmate is gone, grab them an extra handout.  Give them a copy of your notes.  Email them the next assignment.  I will promise you, especially if you will be practicing in a small market, that you will be remembered.  Wouldn't you rather that, the first time you argue before the judge that you went to school with, they remember you as the guy who gave them their notes when their computer crashed a week before finals?  Or the jackass that said, "Oh well, wouldn't wanna be YOU."  In this situation, just bend over and kiss your ass goodbye, because you are DONE, son.  Judges have long memories.

3.  Don't make fun of the old people.  Yes, maybe you think that us old folks who return to school at age whatever are pathetic.  Keep it to yourself.  In my class, there are at least two of us whom you would never even hear coming:  The 17-year special forces veteran who sits in my seat, and the airborne ranger with the bronze star and CIB who sits across the way.  Oh, and if you think that the 55-year-old ex-doctor is safe to mock, he's treated half the justices on the state supreme court, and can get a phone call through within minutes.  I've seen him do it.  The dumpy lady on the front row?  Her husband is managing partner at one of the biggest firms in Memphis.  The quiet, grey-haired guy that *always* sits by himself?  20 years as an IRS agent.  At least thats what he says.  I can smell CIA all over him, though, and once a company man, *always* a company man.

Play nice with us and we'll play nice with you.  @#!* with us, and we'll make your life a living hell.

4.  Keep your family connections to yourself.  Those of us who have busted our asses to get where we are will NOT look kindly on your never having worked because your grandpa is a federal judge, or the fact that your 1.90 GPA will still get you a job in daddy's firm -- and he's paying your tuition, room and board, and even gives you an allowance.  If you are one of these fortunates, count your blessings and shut up.  Or better still, help those of us who aren't that lucky find something too, or at least buy us a beer every once and a while.

Oh, and btw, no we *don't* want to see your new beemer while we're driving a Honda Civic and eating ravioli.

5.  Don't kiss and tell.  Don't @#!* the professors.  Don't cheat.  Don't make life harder on your classmates.  Don't drink too much at social functions.  Don't hit on the dean's wife.  Anything I missed?  Oh, yeah, don't hit the "send" button on an angry email until you've let it sit overnight, no matter how "right" you are.

6. Don't talk about grades, exams, class rank, or anything else with anyone but your closest confidants.  Someone will *always* feel bad after one of these exchanges.  It is ok to female dog about a particular exam, but the old "What did you get for #3?  Really?  Man, the right answer was ......!"  needs to stay in middle school where it belongs.  Too many repeats of that and you will be found behind the dumpster with a Gilbert's stuffed down your throat.

7.   Don't pound on your keyboard during exams like it's halftime at the f-ing Rose Bowl.  Settle down, son, you're driving me nuts!

8.  Do turn your volume down and set your cell phone on vibrate.  The last thing I want to hear during a lecture is your newest rap ringtone.  I have enough trouble paying attention as it is.

9.  Don't have side conversations while the professor is talking.  I don't *CARE* what you think about the way so-and-so is dressed, where you are going after class, how much you drank or who you screwed last weekend.  YOU are not writing the exam.  That's what IM is for, use it!

10.  Take a shower.  Please.