Law school for the rest of us: Advice/questions for/from T2/3/4 students:

[John Blackthorne]

At this point, I do not have much to add to this conversation, but I would like to echo my fears of conditional scholarships.

Right now, I'm debating over a full ride at MSU (3.0), Kent (20k 3.25/10k 3.0) and Cincy (10k/good standing)

I would love the no debt, but I am terrified I'd be stuck in t3 ville michigan for the rest of my life if i dont hit a 3.0 my 1l year.
Being a lifelong MI resident, I can tell you how truly terrifying that prospect is.

This process is so nerve racking.

From first hand knowledge, I can tell you it is worse than athletic recruiting; there is more bull flung at you and a hell of a lot more pressure to perform.

i 3.0 is easy, its a simple trade.  your life as you knew it for grades.  its that easy.  just spend 12 hrs/day 6 days a week in the library, buy and read the supplements, and visit with your profs often

[Thistle]

At this point, I do not have much to add to this conversation, but I would like to echo my fears of conditional scholarships.

Right now, I'm debating over a full ride at MSU (3.0), Kent (20k 3.25/10k 3.0) and Cincy (10k/good standing)

I would love the no debt, but I am terrified I'd be stuck in t3 ville michigan for the rest of my life if i dont hit a 3.0 my 1l year.
Being a lifelong MI resident, I can tell you how truly terrifying that prospect is.

This process is so nerve racking.

From first hand knowledge, I can tell you it is worse than athletic recruiting; there is more bull flung at you and a hell of a lot more pressure to perform.

i 3.0 is easy, its a simple trade.  your life as you knew it for grades.  its that easy.  just spend 12 hrs/day 6 days a week in the library, buy and read the supplements, and visit with your profs often

did all that and still came up short

[laxlaw]

Wow, that was the most depressing advice I have ever received.

Naturally, I have to assume you're joking/exaggerating A LOT.

[John Blackthorne]

I lost a full scholarship as well....needed a 3.0 to keep it, had a 2.94.  I transferred soon after...came down to Case Western/Denver/Lewis Clark.  Chose the lowest ranked and am very happy.  I'm 38.

In that case, I'm posing the same questions to you that I posed to Freak: was it that difficult to keep it, or was it more a case of you not putting in enough work to do so?

I was almost in the top 1/3 of my class...around 36%.  I probably could have studied more efficiently, but its just flat out a numbers game.  For example, I got a 91% first term in Legal Writing which was an A.  The following term I was at 92%....B+.  The middle of our class was around a 2.8 and classes like Con Law had means around a 2.3.  With 40% of the students with some form of scholarship dependent on a 3.0, somebody is gonna lose. 

So... this is my take.

True "scholarships" require that you are in "good standing."

Any other money offers with contingencies should be considered "teaser rates"  There is just too much left to chance.  I can't tell you how much more pressure is added to your studies when a bad grade may cost you 30K.  I remember reading in a WUSTL brochure that they guaranteed their scholarships for just that reason, they wanted you to focus on the law and your contribution to the legal community, not your financial aid package.  Lower ranked schools have to offer money to attract high numbers...just the unfortunate facts.  They know their best students (with scholarships) may transfer and that there will be several who lose scholarships with gpas too low to transfer.  I don't think it is a scam, I just think it would be far more fair to let students (especially the younger ones) know that arbitrary grading systems and the abundance of conditional scholarships tied to gpas creates a very tense learning environment.  Like law school isn't tense already!

I guess the simple answer to your question is that I could have been more productive, but I'm not sure that it would have helped.  Had any one of my grades been just a tiny bit higher... I'd still have the scholarship. 

Thanks for the thorough answer!

I suppose I'm also really curious about how difficult it is to maintain that sort of standing in a Tier 4 school.  I'd imagine that the student body is a little bit weaker -- not much, but some. 

i heard (hearsay) that T4s are more competitive, I am not sure exactly what you mean by weak, because everyone is afraid of being in the bottom half of the class at a T4.  Also, supposedly, the first year is intended to weed people out, so it can be more challenging at a T4 then say a T1.  

[John Blackthorne]

Wow, that was the most depressing advice I have ever received.

Naturally, I have to assume you're joking/exaggerating A LOT.

i know some of the 2L and 3Ls who graded onto law review.  Two thirds of them treated law school like a more-than-full-time job and rarely went out--for the bulk of the semester they immersed themselves in studying.  The other third were either lucky or brilliant.  A friend of mine who is a 3L and on law review partied hard for most of the semester, and then buckled down and studied 12 hrs/day for the last 6 weeks of the semester. 

 

[somniferum]

i 3.0 is easy, its a simple trade.  your life as you knew it for grades.  its that easy.  just spend 12 hrs/day 6 days a week in the library, buy and read the supplements, and visit with your profs often

FWIW (to any scared people) I didn't put in anywhere near that many hours...

[Astro]

Thanks for the thorough answer!

I suppose I'm also really curious about how difficult it is to maintain that sort of standing in a Tier 4 school.  I'd imagine that the student body is a little bit weaker -- not much, but some. 

i heard (hearsay) that T4s are more competitive, I am not sure exactly what you mean by weak, because everyone is afraid of being in the bottom half of the class at a T4.  Also, supposedly, the first year is intended to weed people out, so it can be more challenging at a T4 then say a T1. 

You know what I mean, Cheesemonger. 

There's a certain level of comprehension and uptake required to succeed in law school.  While I wouldn't say T4 students are WEAK in and of themselves, it is true that the student body tends to be weaker than schools that are much higher ranked.  It's not a matter of effort.  It's a matter of comprehension and application.

I fully expect the class to be full of paranoid gunners.  I just want to know whether I have to be concerned about large numbers of intelligent sharks circling the waters as well.

[Astro]

At my former T4 people were really great.  I actively looked for the stupid/weak students...and never found them.  As for competition... Imagine that roughly half your enrollment enters with contingent scholarships, statistically roughly half of thiose will lose them.  Then throw into the hopper that the school offers significant scholarships to those who end up in the top 15% of the class, about half have dreams of a transfer to a higher ranked school, and then finish the whole thing off with the fact that only the top 10 or so really have a realistic chance of cracking the BIGLAW ranks.  All of course have a potential six figure debt...

Not to mention nobody really wants to be the bottom of the class and at many T4s such a placement can flunk you out.  I'd say that is pretty competitive.

This is more what I was looking for.

I never expected these students to be stupid.  That said, how do they compare to your new school?
 

[RN to JD]

I have a lady in my class who is 70ish, her husband was in the class too but he had to drop out becuase he was a volunteer with red Cross and had to go help with Katrina. I know there are 3-4 others at the school in thier 70's, we also have two MD's in my class, one of which is number 1!

I know you probably won't say, but I have to ask. Where do you go to LS?? That sounds like a wonderfully diverse class.

I'm at Denver, I don't keep it a secreate, I stand by everything I say on here, the good and the bad, so I'm OK with saying where I go.

Also I think Valpo is dead on about scholorships, I however, never got the chance to loose any money, cuase I never got any in the first place.

On a side note, Matthies was a huge help in choosing my transfer destination.  Almost sold me on Denver... even though family and friends were all on the coast!  I really did appreciate the detailed lay of the land regarding Denver it was a huge help.

Denver sounds really great. I don't know anything about the school or rank (which rank means nothing to me) but I know it would be a great place to live. My family roots (husband) are so deep in Ms., I really have no other choice except Ole Miss unless I want to get a divorce and move away with my daughter. I am a die hard Ole Miss fan though. Hotty Toddy

[RN to JD]

i 3.0 is easy, its a simple trade.  your life as you knew it for grades.  its that easy.  just spend 12 hrs/day 6 days a week in the library, buy and read the supplements, and visit with your profs often

FWIW (to any scared people) I didn't put in anywhere near that many hours...

I am one of the scared people, so that's nice to hear