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Re: Black Immigrants, An Invisible 'Model Minority'
« Reply #100 on: May 09, 2007, 12:28:01 PM »
Now, I am not blaming the white man.  When do Afro Ams take back our dignity, and respect?  I think it starts with knowledge of self and our afro am-ness so to speak.  Being able to speak about it without being ashamed.  Embracing every aspect of ourselves and what makes us who we are, even ebonics and our youths culture.  We should not apolgize for any element among us.  If we see something that needs correcting we handle it ourselves.  I would like to see more orginaztion.  I would like to see us vote on our own representatives, do our own petitions, so when U.S. politicians come to us we are a bloc.  we need to do what AARP does, or gun groups do.  we need interest groups that speak for us.  this hip hop action network, the naacp, the black womens this, or gay black man that...is counterproductive...we need one group that speaks to all of these groups.  we need to borrow things that have worked from the dominant culture instead of drawing on all the things that destroy us from the dominant culture.  and once we have this together, we need to dialogue on where we want to go.  then bring it to the U.S., I beleive they will listen.  At least more than they do now.  
  

Not to rain on your parade, but that'll never happen. Why? Because Black Americans are just as diverse in their backgrounds, opinions, political support, etc than America as a whole is.  In fact, you do Black America a disservice by implying that we should all agree on what it means to be Black or what our political issues should be.  The key concerns of Black women may be completely different from the concerns of gay Blacks or Black college students.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  There's no way one group can speak to all of the issues of Black America, which is why there are various groups who are trying to work things out in their own ways.  Can some of these groups collaborate on various issues? Yes.  In fact, the more logical step would be to encourage various groups to collaborate on shared issues, instead of trying to combine the various interests, which are often conflicting, into one group that supposedly represents Black America as a whole.

straw man argument #1

re-read what I wrote.  The U.S. Senate includes all types of groups, and they all get say depending on their strength in the population or lobbying power.  why can't we have one large group that addresses all of these subgroups?  why have all of these tribal groups in many cases fighting each other and accomplishing nothing.  why not unify and make comprimises among ourselves.  no one is saying we are monotheistic.  again, straw man argument #1. 
The Tragicomic: Itís embodied in the blues, jazz, (HIP HOP, CORNELL <<one slight deserves another!!!!<< REALLY MISSED THE BOAT ON THAT ONE!!!) and the African experience in the New World -- the ability to withstand terrorism, embrace oneís worst enemies lovingly and bear the unbearable in song.

pikey

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Re: Black Immigrants, An Invisible 'Model Minority'
« Reply #101 on: May 09, 2007, 12:30:06 PM »
Now, I am not blaming the white man.  When do Afro Ams take back our dignity, and respect?  I think it starts with knowledge of self and our afro am-ness so to speak.  Being able to speak about it without being ashamed.  Embracing every aspect of ourselves and what makes us who we are, even ebonics and our youths culture.  We should not apolgize for any element among us.  If we see something that needs correcting we handle it ourselves.  I would like to see more orginaztion.  I would like to see us vote on our own representatives, do our own petitions, so when U.S. politicians come to us we are a bloc.  we need to do what AARP does, or gun groups do.  we need interest groups that speak for us.  this hip hop action network, the naacp, the black womens this, or gay black man that...is counterproductive...we need one group that speaks to all of these groups.  we need to borrow things that have worked from the dominant culture instead of drawing on all the things that destroy us from the dominant culture.  and once we have this together, we need to dialogue on where we want to go.  then bring it to the U.S., I beleive they will listen.  At least more than they do now.  
  

Not to rain on your parade, but that'll never happen. Why? Because Black Americans are just as diverse in their backgrounds, opinions, political support, etc than America as a whole is.  In fact, you do Black America a disservice by implying that we should all agree on what it means to be Black or what our political issues should be.  The key concerns of Black women may be completely different from the concerns of gay Blacks or Black college students.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  There's no way one group can speak to all of the issues of Black America, which is why there are various groups who are trying to work things out in their own ways.  Can some of these groups collaborate on various issues? Yes.  In fact, the more logical step would be to encourage various groups to collaborate on shared issues, instead of trying to combine the various interests, which are often conflicting, into one group that supposedly represents Black America as a whole.

straw man argument #1

re-read what I wrote.  The U.S. Senate includes all types of groups, and they all get say depending on their strength in the population or lobbying power.  why can't we have one large group that addresses all of thes subgroups?  why have all of these tribal groups in many cases fighting each other and accomplishing nothing.  why not unify and make comprimises among ourselves.  no one is saying we are monotheistic.  again, straw man argument #1. 

That's the entire point.  They're too different.  If you think that suddenly combining them into one large group is gonna make us all get along, then you're living in a dream world.
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Re: Black Immigrants, An Invisible 'Model Minority'
« Reply #102 on: May 09, 2007, 12:33:32 PM »
straw man argument #2

did anyone say we would all get along?  and say it would be honky dori.  basically what I'm saying is we need to borrow aspects from the dominant culture that have worked.  Does the U.S. Senate and House of Reps meet our goals?  absolutely not, but for the most part does it work for America?  I'd say it's been pretty successful.  We need to model something similar in my opinion.  does the senate all get along?  hell no.  they debate everyday, but *&^% gets done on a good day.  is everyone happy at the end of the day?  not all the time.  we make comprimises. 
The Tragicomic: Itís embodied in the blues, jazz, (HIP HOP, CORNELL <<one slight deserves another!!!!<< REALLY MISSED THE BOAT ON THAT ONE!!!) and the African experience in the New World -- the ability to withstand terrorism, embrace oneís worst enemies lovingly and bear the unbearable in song.

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Re: Black Immigrants, An Invisible 'Model Minority'
« Reply #103 on: May 09, 2007, 12:37:49 PM »
Guys, do me a favor, please.  Stop talking about "white America" and "Caucasian America" and "Americans" as some sort of monolithic entity.  It's very rare for me to find something offensive in this issue (I'm not the one who historically suffered and who still faces the scars of that past in my present), but I do find this offensive.  Just like not all African-Americans act as an entity, whites are a diverse and scattered group.

It's not just for me, though.  If you stick to this sort of rhetoric, at some point, a racist troll is going to jump in here and use that bit as ammunition against you.  Don't give them valid points they can use.


I see where you are coming from, but considering that this thread began as a conversation about a general trend (success) associated with a certain group (black immigrants), I think it is acceptable to use terms, such as "White Americans."  Generalities, and finding commonalities among groups is one of the primary ways human beings cognitively process information. It is far too difficult to, in a brief LSD post, account for every nuance of the diverse American mosaic.  There are, whether or not you want to admit it, patterns of behavior that often fall along regional, national, and ethno-racial lines.  A shared experience, background, or outlook on the world contributes to our identity, and feelings of community.


Oh, I know that, and I don't have a problem with that, necessarily.  But it depends on the comment.  When you prescribe pejorative action to this entity, I think it crosses a line.  For instance, these points were offensive:

We have seen,or read how Caucasian Americans' anger at the ending of slavery (an anger derived from fear of losing a thriving economy) turned to hatred of the one group that had no say in what would happen to it.  I hope this doesn't simplify it too much, but it is akin to a huge grudge that Caucasian Americans have against African Americans for screwing up their Utopia.

Whereas these weren't:

African Americans, and slavery are part of the dark underbelly of American History that most Caucasian Americans want to "get over." 

Overall white folks look at black people as black people.

There were more.  It's not like I have a problem with talking about "white folks" or "whites" or what have you in general.  It just depends what you ascribe to this group.


It is far too difficult to, in a brief LSD post, account for every nuance of the diverse American mosaic.  There are, whether or not you want to admit it, patterns of behavior that often fall along regional, national, and ethno-racial lines.  A shared experience, background, or outlook on the world contributes to our identity, and feelings of community.

that much is obvious.  I guess you are a better person than me for humoring her, however.

 ::)

Spare me your condescension.  You've jumped to a conclusion that wasn't warranted from my post, and particularly not warranted from my posting history.

I am, very nicely, pointing out that there's a fine line between useful generalization and offensive stereotyping. 

Let me put it this way.  If you went into a thread where people were talking about "blacks" as some sort of conglomerate that always acted together, would that bother you?  Probably not, particularly as you hear this all the time.  If they were ascribing pejorative actions to those "blacks", however -- they are all criminals, or they are all lazy, or whatever other racist tripe we've all heard so many times before -- would that bother you?  Yes, it would.

And it's likely that you hear this quite often, as well.  It's the sad reality of the world we live in that race does matter, even though it shouldn't.  This is why I told Epiphany to ignore bluewarrior earlier in this thread (although she seems intelligent enough to have figured that out for herself).  For the most part, the only people who suffer through this are those groups which have been historically disadvantaged because of race, starting with the mercantile system (a generalization, I know), evolving into the broiling mass of injustices that plague society today.  In other words, everyone but white people.

That, however, does not mean that all white people are directly culpable in present injustices.  Generalized comments that suggest as much is what I find offensive.  See where I'm going with this?


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pikey

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Re: Black Immigrants, An Invisible 'Model Minority'
« Reply #104 on: May 09, 2007, 12:39:38 PM »
straw man argument #2

did anyone say we would all get along?  and say it would be honky dori.  basically what I'm saying is we need to borrow aspects from the dominant culture that have worked.  Does the U.S. Senate and House of Reps meet our goals?  absolutely not, but for the most part does it work for America?  I'd say it's been pretty successful.  We need to model something similar in my opinion.  does the senate all get along?  hell no.  they debate everyday, but *&^% gets done on a good day.  is everyone happy at the end of the day?  not all the time.  we make comprimises. 

So what exactly are you proposing? Some sort of council of black people?  How would these people be chosen? How would they govern? What exactly would they be governing? How would they be given power or funding or would they just decide what issues 'black america' should lobby for?  I'm not sure I understand what you're proposing.

Also, I think it's amusing that everytime I propose a counter-argument it's automatically a straw man  ::)
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Re: Black Immigrants, An Invisible 'Model Minority'
« Reply #105 on: May 09, 2007, 12:39:56 PM »
IOW, does it bother me to be called a honky?  No.  A cracker?  No.  Whitey?  No. 

Does it bother me if people say white people all act in certain ways?  Not necessarily.  Does it bother me if people say white people all act in certain ways that I find reprehensible?  Yes.  That's offensive.


ETA:  But it's only offensive if it's not true.  And, usually, it's not.
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Re: Black Immigrants, An Invisible 'Model Minority'
« Reply #106 on: May 09, 2007, 12:46:03 PM »

Now, I am not blaming the white man.  When do Afro Ams take back our dignity, and respect?  I think it starts with knowledge of self and our afro am-ness so to speak.  Being able to speak about it without being ashamed.  Embracing every aspect of ourselves and what makes us who we are, even ebonics and our youths culture.  We should not apolgize for any element among us.  If we see something that needs correcting we handle it ourselves.  I would like to see more orginaztion.  I would like to see us vote on our own representatives, do our own petitions, so when U.S. politicians come to us we are a bloc.  we need to do what AARP does, or gun groups do.  we need interest groups that speak for us.  this hip hop action network, the naacp, the black womens this, or gay black man that...is counterproductive...we need one group that speaks to all of these groups.  we need to borrow things that have worked from the dominant culture instead of drawing on all the things that destroy us from the dominant culture.  and once we have this together, we need to dialogue on where we want to go.  then bring it to the U.S., I beleive they will listen.  At least more than they do now. 


I agree that there needs to be a greater unification effort.  However, I think that as we move further away from the Jim Crow, Civil Rights era, we are seeing that, although there is  a shared history, or experience, African-Americans are just as diverse as any other groups. Moreover, they are embracing their diversity, which gives rise to groups like the Hip Hop Action Network, Black Woman this.., Black Man that.  You mention the AARP and I'm assuming gun organizations like the NRA.  These groups do not represent one racial or ethnic group, in the way you are purporting African-Americans should band together in one umbrella organization.  Each group has its agenda and puts that forward. Unfortunately, it is more difficult to find one agenda for an entire ethnic or racial group.  When we were being blatantly oppressed, it was easy to advocate for voter's rights, and the like, but where are we know? Half of us think that racism is dead, or are oblivious to the covert, and institutional racism surrounding us.  I think that we need to encourage more civic involvement overall, and can't expect the "government" to take care of us.  When was the last time the government really took care of anyone, Black, White, Purple?  IHMO, African-Americans need to return to their communities and work from a grassroots perspective.  That may be working at the Boys & Girls Club, or SAT tutoring.
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Re: Black Immigrants, An Invisible 'Model Minority'
« Reply #107 on: May 09, 2007, 12:47:01 PM »


definition of strawman
Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.
Quote an opponent's words out of context -- i.e., choose quotations that are not representative of the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy).
Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated.
Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplify a person's argument into a simple analogy, which can then be attacked.
Some logic textbooks define the straw man fallacy only as a misrepresented argument. It is now common, however, to use the term to refer to all of these tactics. The straw-man technique is also used as a form of media manipulation.

However, carefully presenting and refuting a weakened form of an opponent's argument is not always itself a fallacy. Instead, it restricts the scope of the opponent's argument, either to where the argument is no longer relevant or as a step of a proof by exhaustion

"An example of a straw man fallacy:

Person A: I don't think children should run into the busy streets.
Person B: I think that it would be foolish to lock children up all day.
By insinuating that Person A's argument is far more draconian than it is, Person B has side-stepped the issue. Here the "straw man" that person B has set up is the premise that "The only way to stop children running into the busy streets is to keep them inside all day"."




me: I think we need a large group to speak to all of these groups we have
you: I'm insulted you think all black people think the same, we are diverse.



see example of straw man argument




me:if we have a large bloc, I think america will listen more than they do now to our scattered voices

you: if you think one large bloc will make everyone get along you are living in a dream world

see example of straw man argument
 

The Tragicomic: Itís embodied in the blues, jazz, (HIP HOP, CORNELL <<one slight deserves another!!!!<< REALLY MISSED THE BOAT ON THAT ONE!!!) and the African experience in the New World -- the ability to withstand terrorism, embrace oneís worst enemies lovingly and bear the unbearable in song.

pikey

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Re: Black Immigrants, An Invisible 'Model Minority'
« Reply #108 on: May 09, 2007, 12:53:40 PM »
Way to ignore the vast majority of my post...Way to also misrepresent my responses.  I must have been taking strawman lessons from you.  :D

I notice that you didn't respond to Epiphany, who gave a similar argument (though a lot more eloquently, being home sick doesn't exactly leave me with a lot of patience)
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Re: Black Immigrants, An Invisible 'Model Minority'
« Reply #109 on: May 09, 2007, 01:00:45 PM »
that diversity issue is a straw man argument.  clearly we are diverse.  I never said we weren't.  In fact what I did say is that we were diverse to our detriment, and that maybe what we need is some focus.

"These groups do not represent one racial or ethnic group, in the way you are purporting African-Americans should band together in one umbrella organization.  Each group has its agenda and puts that forward. Unfortunately, it is more difficult to find one agenda for an entire ethnic or racial group.  When we were being blatantly oppressed, it was easy to advocate for voter's rights, and the like, but where are we know? Half of us think that racism is dead, or are oblivious to the covert, and institutional racism surrounding us.  I think that we need to encourage more civic involvement overall, and can't expect the "government" to take care of us.  When was the last time the government really took care of anyone, Black, White, Purple?  IHMO, African-Americans need to return to their communities and work from a grassroots perspective.  That may be working at the Boys & Girls Club, or SAT tutoring."


but how can we do this enmasse, and with any sort of consistency, if there is not a vanguard pushing this agenda forward.  do we rely on women to teach black women, the gay guys to seek out gay guys, russell simmons to seek out the hip hop heads.  do we just do it ourselves? I keep hearing people say blacks are diverse.  no one said they weren't.  America is more diverse than blacks, but America has political institutions in place that ensure its continued survival and success.  are black people even more diverse than america?  why can america have the congress and address most of the groups in it's constituency, but blacks can't do something similar?  the senate isn't working for us, because our interest groups are not focused and are not strong enough to twist a senators arm..I propose we get that strentgth instead of just complaining about our powerlessness.  but apparently people would rather have all of nothing than share half of something...  

The Tragicomic: Itís embodied in the blues, jazz, (HIP HOP, CORNELL <<one slight deserves another!!!!<< REALLY MISSED THE BOAT ON THAT ONE!!!) and the African experience in the New World -- the ability to withstand terrorism, embrace oneís worst enemies lovingly and bear the unbearable in song.