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Author Topic: Why is Toledo a Tier 2???????????  (Read 1705 times)

platopotato

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Why is Toledo a Tier 2???????????
« on: March 18, 2007, 04:32:43 PM »
Toledo is ranked 93 by usnews for several reason, all of which are a bit deceiving.

First, their LSAT average is 155-162  (25th-75th), but this is only because HALF of their class is part time!

Secondly, Toledo's high employment rate at graduation also seems deceptive. According to usnews, 10% work  "Professional/other (Jobs which require professional skills or training, but for which a J.D. is neither preferred nor particularly applicable." And 4% work "Non-professional/other" I.e. Starbucks.

Thirdly, Usnews also lists their Peer assessment as 1.9 out of 5, and judge assessment as 2.4 out of 5. I'm not exactly sure what these numbers mean and how reliable they are, but they are significantly lower than similarly ranked schools.

Fourthly, Usnews reports attrition at 7%, while the aba guide says its about 15%!

I've heard that Toledo is *generally considered to be the the fourth best school in Ohio (behind Ohio state, case, and cincy), but I am skeptical that it would be considered this if it weren't for these deceptive statistics. They offered me a full ride, but required that I stay in the top 25% of my class. Right now I am trying to decide between Toledo and Fayetteville Arkansas. Fayetteville offered me 20k over three years (if i remain in the top 20%), but they give most students in state tuition before the second year. I dont know if Toledo grants residency to many of their students, if they don't then one bad semester my first year = at least 60k of debt.


nealric

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Re: Why is Toledo a Tier 2???????????
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2007, 06:04:13 PM »
Quote
First, their LSAT average is 155-162  (25th-75th), but this is only because HALF of their class is part time

I think you just answered your own question.
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Rule of Reason

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Re: Why is Toledo a Tier 2???????????
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2007, 11:57:31 PM »
Toledo is ranked 93 by usnews for several reason, all of which are a bit deceiving.

First, their LSAT average is 155-162  (25th-75th), but this is only because HALF of their class is part time!

US News uses full time LSAT scores only.  The part timers don't count at any school.  (see http://officialguide.lsac.org/OFFGUIDE/pdf/aba1845.pdf )

Secondly, Toledo's high employment rate at graduation also seems deceptive. According to usnews, 10% work  "Professional/other (Jobs which require professional skills or training, but for which a J.D. is neither preferred nor particularly applicable." And 4% work "Non-professional/other" I.e. Starbucks.

Employment statistics are the easiest thing for any school to game.  Essentially meaningless everywhere.

Thirdly, Usnews also lists their Peer assessment as 1.9 out of 5, and judge assessment as 2.4 out of 5. I'm not exactly sure what these numbers mean and how reliable they are, but they are significantly lower than similarly ranked schools.

It means that when a bunch of lawyers and judges were asked to rate the law schools, Toledo got an average of 1.9 from the former and 2.4 from the latter.  Pretty simple.
 
Fourthly, Usnews reports attrition at 7%, while the aba guide says its about 15%!

US News is reporting Academic attrition, which you can see in the ABA data.  They do the same for every school.

I'm not saying it's a good or bad school, but these "discrepancies" in the USNWR data are nothing special.

TITCR - except for the last one, I don't know about --- is it possible you're looking at 2006 aba data vs. 2005 data they used for the USN report?


I agree with the OP though on the conclusion that Toledo is way underrated.  Actually, there was a real neat analysis of the USN system done by a prof at Loyola Marymount that figured if it weren't for the peer / judge assessments (which are, for all intents and purposes, "objective" clusters of people's subjective opinions) Toledo would be ranked somewhere in the 50's.


I almost applied there just for kicks.  They had this real neat institute on the US / Canada great lakes water crisis  (I believe that is drinking water that we're not going to have enough of!?!)  Anyways, yeah, if I find the link on the Marymount guy's report I'll post it.

EDIT: 

FOUND IT!  http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=937017

studymaster

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Re: Why is Toledo a Tier 2???????????
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2007, 09:22:26 PM »
I actually go to a school about half an hour from UT. I do think that UT has some special things to offer. Some of the Toledo neighborhoods are great places for those students with families, they even have a spectacular school district (and one terrible one..). Also, UT seems very generous with their money, awarding 40% full tuition scholarships if I recall... I do know it is a mindbogglingly high number. If they require top 25% this would explain some of it. But #4 law school in Ohio is like saying you got second place in a two person race.. It's deceptive bc Ohio isn't blessed with a glut of law schools..
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Re: Why is Toledo a Tier 2???????????
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2007, 09:53:14 PM »

I've heard that Toledo is *generally considered to be the the fourth best school in Ohio (behind Ohio state, case, and cincy)


I've heard that Willamette is generally considered to be the third best school in Oregon (behind Oregon and Lewis & Clark).

guizot

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Re: Why is Toledo a Tier 2???????????
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2007, 10:23:44 PM »
Ohio does have a glut of law schools, nine ABA accredited schools, to be exact.  Why Toledo has such a high ranking is a mystery to many people in Ohio, one that can only be explained by the discrepancy in their admission standards between full and part-time students.  The earler poster's ranking starts off accurately, Ohio State is first by most measures, then Case and Cincinnati are roughly equal, followed by Toledo and Cleveland-Marshall in the middle, then Akron and Ohio Northern, with Capital and Dayton located near the tail of the legal animal.

On the other hand, they do seem to offer f/t students a good deal of money.

studymaster

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Re: Why is Toledo a Tier 2???????????
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2007, 08:57:04 AM »
Ohio does have a glut of law schools, nine ABA accredited schools, to be exact.  Why Toledo has such a high ranking is a mystery to many people in Ohio, one that can only be explained by the discrepancy in their admission standards between full and part-time students.  The earler poster's ranking starts off accurately, Ohio State is first by most measures, then Case and Cincinnati are roughly equal, followed by Toledo and Cleveland-Marshall in the middle, then Akron and Ohio Northern, with Capital and Dayton located near the tail of the legal animal.

On the other hand, they do seem to offer f/t students a good deal of money.

Strange, I have heard better thigns abotu capital *shrugs* thats layman tho..
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Lindbergh

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Re: Why is Toledo a Tier 2???????????
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2007, 09:58:43 AM »

I think the OP's point was that Toledo was overrated, not underrated.


Toledo is ranked 93 by usnews for several reason, all of which are a bit deceiving.

First, their LSAT average is 155-162  (25th-75th), but this is only because HALF of their class is part time!

US News uses full time LSAT scores only.  The part timers don't count at any school.  (see http://officialguide.lsac.org/OFFGUIDE/pdf/aba1845.pdf )

Secondly, Toledo's high employment rate at graduation also seems deceptive. According to usnews, 10% work  "Professional/other (Jobs which require professional skills or training, but for which a J.D. is neither preferred nor particularly applicable." And 4% work "Non-professional/other" I.e. Starbucks.

Employment statistics are the easiest thing for any school to game.  Essentially meaningless everywhere.

Thirdly, Usnews also lists their Peer assessment as 1.9 out of 5, and judge assessment as 2.4 out of 5. I'm not exactly sure what these numbers mean and how reliable they are, but they are significantly lower than similarly ranked schools.

It means that when a bunch of lawyers and judges were asked to rate the law schools, Toledo got an average of 1.9 from the former and 2.4 from the latter.  Pretty simple.
 
Fourthly, Usnews reports attrition at 7%, while the aba guide says its about 15%!

US News is reporting Academic attrition, which you can see in the ABA data.  They do the same for every school.

I'm not saying it's a good or bad school, but these "discrepancies" in the USNWR data are nothing special.

TITCR - except for the last one, I don't know about --- is it possible you're looking at 2006 aba data vs. 2005 data they used for the USN report?


I agree with the OP though on the conclusion that Toledo is way underrated.  Actually, there was a real neat analysis of the USN system done by a prof at Loyola Marymount that figured if it weren't for the peer / judge assessments (which are, for all intents and purposes, "objective" clusters of people's subjective opinions) Toledo would be ranked somewhere in the 50's.


I almost applied there just for kicks.  They had this real neat institute on the US / Canada great lakes water crisis  (I believe that is drinking water that we're not going to have enough of!?!)  Anyways, yeah, if I find the link on the Marymount guy's report I'll post it.

EDIT: 

FOUND IT!  http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=937017

contrarian

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Re: Why is Toledo a Tier 2???????????
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2007, 11:28:14 PM »
Interesting, but they are ranked higher by USNews  now (rank 85) when there's quite a few T3 with higher peer/legal review assessments.

I believe a major factor is location and tuition because of how it indirectly affects the rankings.  Schools with a great location and/or are cheaper public schools would get more applications and thus their acceptance rate is lower.  Also, they probably get people applying with higher GPA/SLAT that wouldn't have applied had it been the same quality school in, for instance, Nebraska or a pricey private  school. 

Since LSAT, GPA, & Acceptance rate count for 25% of the ranking, the added indirect bump pushes up their ranking.

Boyd is a great example.  Cheap school right next to the LV strip in a warm climate.  The school itself is pretty new and the peer/legal assessment would put it amongst the T3, but it manages to squeek into a T2.


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Re: Why is Toledo a Tier 2???????????
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2007, 01:58:36 PM »
Ohio schools let you do instate after the 1st yr...
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