Why should I go to an American school?

[nerfco]

... you would have to first pass the bar in either one of NY or MA (again, difficult, given the 36% bar passage rate for non-ABA approved degree holders, and yes, that includes everybody who takes it who does not have an ABA JD including Canadians and including U of T students...

This is ridiculous. The bar passage rate for all non-ABA school takers combined gives absolutely no information about what the bar passage rate of students coming from U of Toronto is.

[rpk8785]

... you would have to first pass the bar in either one of NY or MA (again, difficult, given the 36% bar passage rate for non-ABA approved degree holders, and yes, that includes everybody who takes it who does not have an ABA JD including Canadians and including U of T students...

This is ridiculous. The bar passage rate for all non-ABA school takers combined gives absolutely no information about what the bar passage rate of students coming from U of Toronto is.

Great reading comp, genius - that sentence means that U of T is included in the larger non-ABA group, not that 36% of U of T grads pass the bar in NY.  No, last time I checked, the U of T degree wasn't ABA-approved, although you might be working on different info than the rest of the world.

[ouchitburns]

we are aware of what you were implying. NerfCo was just telling you that your assumption was ridiculous. Non-ABA schools and UofT are not comparable with respect to bar passage rates and your attempt to do so is disingenuous.

[rpk8785]

Not comparable?  You still don't get it - what I am saying is that U of T is a non-ABA school.  That's fact.  Yes it is the top law school in Canada, without question, but it is a non-ABA approved school, so it is included in that group.  So yes, U of T and non-ABA approved law schools are one and the same.

[attic4fp]

that's like saying the bar passage rate students from California schools is 50%, so the bar passage rate for Boalt students must be 50%.

it makes no sense.

[rpk8785]

What makes no sense is the lack of understanding here.

Let's make it clear.

For every 100 non-ABA approved law degree holders that take the NY bar, a group that includes U of T grads, on average, 36 pass and 64 fail.

You're right, U of T grads as a subset of that larger 100% could very well do better than the average as they may be more intelligent, etc, but that doesn't change the fact that they're included in the non-ABA group.  They form a subset of people within that larger group (who may fare better/raise the average, etc).  Just like white people form a subset of people who take the LSAT.  That's all I'm saying.

It would be interesting if there were stats kept by U of T (or any Canadian school, for that matter) on how their grads fare specifically - whether they're better or worse than the average on the NY bar, which is 36% for people with non-ABA approved degrees, versus 74% overall.   

[mark_ede]

I suspect that UofT grads who write the New York Bar tend to pass it since UofT admission standards are substantially higher then those of non-ABA accreditted Law Schools (i.e. 3.7/166). More importantly from the numbers I've seen to 20-odd UofT students who go to New York (around 10% of the class- and there are only 500-600 LS grads in Osgoode and Toronto combined) they are not people who would be likely to fail (they have B+ averages in a place not known for grade inflation).

All this being said if one wants to practice in the U.S, one should study in the U.S. If one wants to practice in Canada and might consider working on the East Coast it would make more sense to study in Canada where U.S firms recruit but where can have access to the full array of Canadian jobs. This is especially the case if one wants certain government jobs: a bilingual student who could get into a T-14 U.S school probably has a better chance of getting a really sweet clerking deal in Canada then the U.S, simply because the competition in Canada is slightly less ridiculous in that regard.

Also the opportunity cost involved in doing the NCA process seems really high.

[Temporary Relief Assistant Trailer Park Supervisor]

Wrong on both counts - the bar passage rate in NY for non-ABA JD holders is 36%, and the opportunities for advancement with a Canadian degree in the American market are extremely limited - basically you can get in, maybe, but you're certainly not going to move up quickly, if at all.  If flexibility is your top criterion for choosing, then the US wins hands down.  Not to say that there aren't other good reasons for staying in Canada for a lot of people, though.

By flexibility, I'm talking about working in either jurisdiction.  It is undeniable that a Canadian llb gives you more immediate options in the US, than a US JD gives you in Canada, simply because of the policies of the various provincial bar associations.  A person cannot graduate from USD and write the bar in a Canadian province.  McGill, U of T, and Osgoode are all recruited by V100 US firms, and send 30 students between them to NYC firms.  I don't know what you're talking about when you say "moving up", because no one "moves up" at these firms until they make partner.  I don't see why firms like Cravath and SullCrom and Skadden would take a couple of Mcgill and U of T students every year, and actively recruit on campus, if it was impossible for them to "move up."

Come on, 30 students between the three schools in NYC, and you say that's evidence of Canadians moving up in the US market??? That's laughable - there are literally hundreds of students that go to NYC for their first jobs as associates every year, merely 30 students between three of the top Canadian schools does not mean that you will have huge opportunities to move up, believe me.  Additionally, that figure (if true), only further goes to show that while some firms may recruit in Canada, lots of people don't want to go to the US and the firms won't go as deep into the classes. 

U of T sending 10% of their class to V100 NYC firms is not laughable, it's more than most T1 American schools.  Over 50% of their class takes biglaw jobs in Toronto, and obviously not every student is gunning for NY so it certainly does not prove that firms refuse to go deep into the U of T class (although I imagine they don't go particularly deep.)  There is obviously a great deal of self-selection among students to stay in Canada, since the vast majority are Canadian citizens and their whole lives are in Canada.  That being said, I am not advocating going to a Canadian school over a US one to work in the US, especially if the US school is a top school. 

The fact still stands that going to a Canadian school gives you the option of writing the NY or MA bar and working in one of these states upon graduation.  No matter what US school you go to, you will not be able to practice Canadian law in Canada right after graduation.  You will need at least a year of further studies.  I don't know why you won't just acknowledge this and move on.  You laugh off U of T sending about 10% of their students to NYC biglaw -which is not their primary market- despite the fact it is probably about the same percentage, or higher, that non-NY area T1's like BC, Emory, or Notre Dame would send. Osgoode, McGill, and U of T sent 3,5, and 6 summers respectively to V10 NYC offices.  BC, Emory, and Notre Dame sent 5, 2, and 2 respectively.

The blanket statement you made was, "If flexibility is your top criterion for choosing, then the US wins hands down," and I don't see that you've offered any evidence in support of it.  The statement is particularly wrong since I qualified "flexibility" to be the option of working in either Canada or the US.  Again, I am not saying that Canadian schools will open tons of doors in the US, but if you're at the right Canadian school, and you get good marks, there will be some options available as far as working for big firms in the US.  Because of the bar association regulations, it is harder for a US trained attorney to get accredited and sit for the bar in Canada, and usually takes at least a year of further study at a Canadian law school.

[ouchitburns]

What makes no sense is the lack of understanding here.

Let's make it clear.

For every 100 non-ABA approved law degree holders that take the NY bar, a group that includes U of T grads, on average, 36 pass and 64 fail.

You're right, U of T grads as a subset of that larger 100% could very well do better than the average as they may be more intelligent, etc, but that doesn't change the fact that they're included in the non-ABA group.  They form a subset of people within that larger group (who may fare better/raise the average, etc).  Just like white people form a subset of people who take the LSAT.  That's all I'm saying.

It would be interesting if there were stats kept by U of T (or any Canadian school, for that matter) on how their grads fare specifically - whether they're better or worse than the average on the NY bar, which is 36% for people with non-ABA approved degrees, versus 74% overall.   

So, what you are saying is nothing. No, wait, what you are saying is that people from U of T take the NY bar. Cool. Thanks.

[Geo_Storm]

hmmm, I thought I was going to get something out of this thread. Apparently not.